1. #2301
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Do you really not see how she's choosing to bring the kid to term and, as such, if the father wants no part the entirety of the consequences of that decision should rest on her shoulders.
    And before people beat the "deadbeat" horse any more, do you think that pregnant women would actually prefer to be told the man wants out while they still have the alternative of abortion instead of it happening after a baby has already been born?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 07:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    ithe kids quality of life is *entirely* her responsibility. if she doesnt abort she is doing it a disservice.
    Yeah, because adoption totally isn't another alternative. Or leaving it at a church, or leaving it at a firehouse, or leaving it at a hospital...

  2. #2302
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    it is. isnt the whole argument that men have no choice, and therefore no inherent responsibility?

    the kids quality of life is *entirely* her responsibility. if she doesnt abort she is doing it a disservice.
    No, the argument is that men should have a choice of whether or not to bear responsibility.

    If the kid's quality of life would entirely be her responsibility, that would be a choice she makes and not one that's forced upon her.

  3. #2303
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizo View Post
    I've never been discriminated against or seen any male discrimination personally
    I don't mean to make it seem like there aren't issues, it's just that I haven't experienced or seen them in my everyday life, so I wouldn't be interested joining a movement like that.
    I haven't seen any female discrimination either in my whole life.

  4. #2304
    Yeah, because adoption totally isn't another alternative. Or leaving it at a church, or leaving it at a firehouse, or leaving it at a hospital...
    which is totally better than being raised by its own parent...

  5. #2305
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    which is totally better than being raised by its own parent...
    It is if the parent isn't able to care for it or not ready to be a parent. Not even close.

  6. #2306
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    No, the argument is that men should have a choice of whether or not to bear responsibility.
    they get a choice, women bear an inherent responsibility to determine its future (or lack thereof).
    If the kid's quality of life would entirely be her responsibility, that would be a choice she makes and not one that's forced upon her.
    it essentially forces her to abort as the best possible option.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 05:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    It is if the parent isn't able to care for it or not ready to be a parent. Not even close.
    adoption causes a lot of troubles in a kids life, and you know it. wouldnt it be better to provide some means of helping parents out instead of clogging the system?

  7. #2307
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    adoption causes a lot of troubles in a kids life, and you know it. wouldnt it be better to provide some means of helping parents out instead of clogging the system?
    You know what else causes a lot of troubles in a kid's life? Having shit for parents.

  8. #2308
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    No, the argument is that men should have a choice of whether or not to bear responsibility.

    If the kid's quality of life would entirely be her responsibility, that would be a choice she makes and not one that's forced upon her.
    The inherent hypocrisy in this that you refuse to address is that you are perfectly ok with the man making a unilateral decision that affects both parties, but not ok with a woman making a unilateral decision that affects both parties. You don't actually fix the problem, you just change the parameters of the problem by giving men an escape clause. Now there is still a kid, but it's just on one person or the state to take care of the problem. That's not a solution. That's just making the situation better for men. You refuse to see or accept this in any way.

    Oh, also. No one is forcing the parent that doesn't want to be involved to be physically present, regardless of gender. Child support is sufficient.

  9. #2309
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    they get a choice, women bear an inherent responsibility to determine its future (or lack thereof).
    No, they don't have a choice. Everything after orgasm is out of their hands completely. That's anything but fair.

    it essentially forces her to abort as the best possible option.
    Pure hyperbole. It's not a false dichotomy in any sense of the word. If she can afford the kid she keeps it. If she can't she has choices. Don't pretend women can't be their own breadwinners.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 01:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    The inherent hypocrisy in this that you refuse to address is that you are perfectly ok with the man making a unilateral decision that affects both parties, but not ok with a woman making a unilateral decision that affects both parties. You don't actually fix the problem, you just change the parameters of the problem by giving men an escape clause. Now there is still a kid, but it's just on one person or the state to take care of the problem. That's not a solution. That's just making the situation better for men. You refuse to see or accept this in any way.
    The man won't be making a unilateral decision whatsoever. He'll be making a self-determining decision that doesn't have to influence the woman's choice in whether or not to abort. If she lets it, that's her problem. If she doesn't let it affect her decision, good on her.

  10. #2310
    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    The inherent hypocrisy in this that you refuse to address is that you are perfectly ok with the man making a unilateral decision that affects both parties, but not ok with a woman making a unilateral decision that affects both parties. You don't actually fix the problem, you just change the parameters of the problem by giving men an escape clause. Now there is still a kid, but it's just on one person or the state to take care of the problem. That's not a solution. That's just making the situation better for men. You refuse to see or accept this in any way.
    And you refuse to see that having both parties able to choose actually improves the situation. Seriously, don't you think women would like to know ASAP as soon as a father doesn't want it?

    "Oh yeah by the way I know you just gave birth and all...but uh, I'm not going to be there."

  11. #2311
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    You know what else causes a lot of troubles in a kid's life? Having shit for parents.
    and its impossible to determine what kind of parents will adopt or foster a kid left to the state. which makes abortion the best possible option.

  12. #2312
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and its impossible to determine what kind of parents will adopt or foster a kid left to the state. which makes abortion the best possible option.
    So take that option. It's available to you if that's how you feel. Don't try and blame other people for your own decision, though.

  13. #2313
    Quote Originally Posted by Aalyy View Post
    Describing my post with hysterical adjectives doesn't make it any less valid. Yes, sexism pisses me off esp. thinly disguised sexism where someone talks out both sides of his mouth about how fathers are so discriminated against but they should be allowed to walk away scott free from any responsibility if they don't happen to want a child. I mean, get real!

    If men get to bear zero responsibility for a child just because they say so then that leaves the woman with 100% of the responsibility because of Biology regardless of her choice. That isn't fair. What was someone saying about making laws to circumvent Biology's inherent inequality??? Well there ya go! That's what we have on the books now.
    Can a man say to a woman he impregnated she should get an abortion and the woman can say no and just go through with it? Can a woman have an abortion regardless of what the man who impregnated her wants? If both answers are yes then I don't see how this is fair in any way.
    Thankfully some normal adults can come to some sort of agreement without ignoring eachothers wishes.

  14. #2314
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The man won't be making a unilateral decision whatsoever. He'll be making a self-determining decision that doesn't have to influence the woman's choice in whether or not to abort. If she lets it, that's her problem. If she doesn't let it affect her decision, good on her.
    Of course it's unilateral. His decision to leave absolutely has a huge impact on her. He can do that without any input or influence. That is the definition of unilateral. I said it before, it's complete selfishness dressed up as equal rights. If you wanted an equal solution, you would find one that didn't involve you walking away from a situation you helped to create.

    @ruken: Both parties have two points where they can choose. 1. Intercourse. 3. Birth. If either parent leaves here they are rightly responsible for child support. The only one the man misses out on is 2. Abortion. That's because the baby is never in him or he could do it too. Your solution doesn't improve the situation, it just gives men a way out. For the 97th time.

  15. #2315
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    And you refuse to see that having both parties able to choose actually improves the situation.
    thats the problem, it improves it for men and makes it worse for everyone else.
    Seriously, don't you think women would like to know ASAP as soon as a father doesn't want it?

    "Oh yeah by the way I know you just gave birth and all...but uh, I'm not going to be there."
    he doesnt have to be there now, or keep it a secret that he wont.

  16. #2316
    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    Of course it's unilateral. His decision to leave absolutely has a huge impact on her. He can do that without any input or influence. That is the definition of unilateral. I said it before, it's complete selfishness dressed up as equal rights. If you wanted an equal solution, you would find one that didn't involve you walking away from a situation you helped to create.
    Huge impact on her? And the current paradigm of 21 years of child support (based on a unilateral decision) doesn't have a huge impact on men?

    Letting the man opt out is a better option because it doesn't take an option away from the woman. She's still free to bring the pregnancy to term or terminate it. No one has removed that choice. Given her something to think about? Certainly. Taken the choice away? Nope.

  17. #2317
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Huge impact on her? And the current paradigm of 21 years of child support (based on a unilateral decision) doesn't have a huge impact on men?

    Letting the man opt out is a better option because it doesn't take an option away from the woman. She's still free to bring the pregnancy to term or terminate it. No one has removed that choice. Given her something to think about? Certainly. Taken the choice away? Nope.
    A decision that only removes your share of the responsibility is not analogous to one that removes everyone's responsibility.

  18. #2318
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Huge impact on her? And the current paradigm of 21 years of child support (based on a unilateral decision) doesn't have a huge impact on men?

    Letting the man opt out is a better option because it doesn't take an option away from the woman. She's still free to bring the pregnancy to term or terminate it. No one has removed that choice. Given her something to think about? Certainly. Taken the choice away? Nope.
    And that's the crux of what I'm trying to tell you. Letting the man out improves the situation for one person: the man. It complicates an already tough decision and potentially puts more of a burden on the state through foster care or state assistance. All possible because you gave the man the option to walk away with no questions asked. You have no problem with you taking an action that affects other people, but have a huge problem with other people taking an action that affects you. That's pretty much hypocrisy.

  19. #2319
    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    And that's the crux of what I'm trying to tell you. Letting the man out improves the situation for one person: the man. It complicates an already tough decision and potentially puts more of a burden on the state through foster care or state assistance. All possible because you gave the man the option to walk away with no questions asked. You have no problem with you taking an action that affects other people, but have a huge problem with other people taking an action that affects you. That's pretty much hypocrisy.
    Exactly. The woman either has a choice to split the cost of raising with the father or make the entire thing a wash. Giving the man the right to just walk away and say fuck it to the rest is not equal power, its giving men advantages.

  20. #2320
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    thats the problem, it improves it for men and makes it worse for everyone else.
    Bull, it improves women's situation too because with a period for men to decide, they can come to a decision sooner themselves.

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