Isn't it about time the Mens' Rights Movement stopped being treated like a joke?

[Laize]

A decision that only removes your share of the responsibility is not analogous to one that removes everyone's responsibility.

And what does that have to do with anything? Nothing, that's what. If a woman's decision to abort can outweigh a man's desire to be a father (as it should) then her decision removes everyone's responsibility even if they want it.

There's nothing wrong with being able to just remove yourself from the situation. You're still not limiting women's choices. You're simply not forcing men to finance theirs.

[Wells]

Bull, it improves women's situation too because with a period for men to decide, they can come to a decision sooner themselves.

Wait wait wait, giving a man the choice to force the mother of his child to bear that child on her own or abort is an advantage to women, because then they can abort sooner?

[Laize]

And that's the crux of what I'm trying to tell you. Letting the man out improves the situation for one person: the man. It complicates an already tough decision and potentially puts more of a burden on the state through foster care or state assistance. All possible because you gave the man the option to walk away with no questions asked. You have no problem with you taking an action that affects other people, but have a huge problem with other people taking an action that affects you. That's pretty much hypocrisy.

You're acting as though the choice to abort doesn't affect anyone but the mother.

[Wælcyrie]

Abortion is a horrible thing, do a google search without safesearch on and don't eat while looking.
I'd never do that to anyone, I rather let the kid grow up as an orphan than do that brutal murder.

[Laize]

Exactly. The woman either has a choice to split the cost of raising with the father or make the entire thing a wash. Giving the man the right to just walk away and say fuck it to the rest is not equal power, its giving men advantages.

So you're saying men and women are as equal as they can possibly be with the current situation?

[Rukentuts]

Wait wait wait, giving a man the choice to force the mother of his child to bear that child on her own or abort is an advantage to women, because then they can abort sooner?

As opposed to a man waiting to walk out in a late trimester or after birth, yes.

[Wells]

And what does that have to do with anything? Nothing, that's what.

Don't hurt your wrist with that hand waving. The decisions are not analagous. The man's choice is between sticking it all on the woman and losing nothing or sharing in the burden and the woman's choice is between sharing in the burden or wiping the entire situation out.

[Grizzly Willy]

Bull, it improves women's situation too because with a period for men to decide, they can come to a decision sooner themselves.

Yeah, I'm not sure how forcing them to choose sooner is a bonus.

[starlord]

So take that option. It's available to you if that's how you feel. Don't try and blame other people for your own decision, though.

id thank you to keep your assumptions to yourself.

and it makes it more of a non-decision if one cares for the welfare of their kids. punishing those who wish to take responsibility & rewarding those that dont seems backwards to me.

[Wells]

As opposed to a man waiting to walk out in a late trimester or after birth, yes.

So a system that would let men walk away and leave the mother stuck with the kid alone or aborting is better than a decision where the father can walk away later but still has to pay for the child is better for women.

Right.

[Rukentuts]

Yeah, I'm not sure how forcing them to choose sooner is a bonus.

I just said why. Having a period where men will have a choice will basically cut down on the number that flake out in a late trimester or after birth because they were in denial or some shit.

[Wells]

Its interesting to note that the side effects of abortion are largely ignored as well.

[buck008]

You're acting as though the choice to abort doesn't affect anyone but the mother.

No, I'm acting as though the choice affects both people, and you should approach a situation that you view as broken with a compromise solution that benefits both people. Giving the man the ability to walk away takes a choice away from the mother (i.e. raise the kid with bio dad physically or financially present). It adds nothing to the situation. You haven't made anything equal, you've just rearranged things so men have it a bit easier.

[Wells]

I just said why. Having a period where men will have a choice will basically cut down on the number that flake out in a late trimester or after birth because they were in denial or some shit.

A system that lets them flake early with no consequences is not better than a situation that lets them flake earlier and still have to pay support.

[Rukentuts]

So a system that would let men walk away and leave the mother stuck with the kid alone or aborting is better than a decision where the father can walk away later but still has to pay for the child is better for women.

Right.

Has to pay doesn't mean he actually does.

[Laize]

id thank you to keep your assumptions to yourself.

and it makes it more of a non-decision if one cares for the welfare of their kids. punishing those who wish to take responsibility & rewarding those that dont seems backwards to me.

It's not punishing those who take responsibility nor is it rewarding those who don't.

It's doing nothing beneficial or harmful to people who don't accept the burden. Meanwhile the woman is left with 2 choices. The same choices she had from the beginning. She can abort/adopt or bring the child to term and raise it herself.

Same choices. Nothing's changed except she can't depend on an unwilling father's garnished wages.

[Rukentuts]

A system that lets them flake early with no consequences is not better than a situation that lets them flake earlier and still have to pay support.

Yes it is, because what if the woman would now have preferred abortion when he left? Now she has an infant, little late for that.

[Wells]

Has to pay doesn't mean he actually does.

I'm all for expanding the legal system to pursue deadbeats.

[Laize]

Its interesting to note that the side effects of abortion are largely ignored as well.

Because that's biology's fault. Just like it's biology's fault women get the choice in whether to abort or not.

The more complicated nature of the abortion procedure doesn't get to enter into the lawmaking decision. The law is there to smooth out the bumps biology throws at us. Not enhance them.

[Wells]

It's not punishing those who take responsibility nor is it rewarding those who don't.

It's doing nothing beneficial or harmful to people who don't accept the burden. Meanwhile the woman is left with 2 choices. The same choices she had from the beginning. She can abort/adopt or bring the child to term and raise it herself.

Same choices. Nothing's changed except she can't depend on an unwilling father's garnished wages.

Stop pretending the powers you're giving men don't effect the woman.