What do you know about Romania?

[Bakis]

Again, noone denied it is happening. It is happening in Sweden as well a country known for strong unions and collective agreements (guarantee same minimum pay regarldess of gender, nationality etc).

Again: "western Europe only look to abuse foreign people and suck central/eastern Europe dry" are you a person that can or can not understand that this is a blanket statement hence it says every emoployer does it and every employee gets abused.

[Donald Hellscream]

Vlad the impaler and Bucharest, also there seem to be alot of gypsies ( no idea if that is just a stereotype but they seem to prevelant in eastern europe )

[Cybran]

Again: "western Europe only look to abuse foreign people and suck central/eastern Europe dry" are you a person that can or can not understand that this is a blanket statement hence it says every emoployer does it and every employee gets abused.

http://www.ituc-csi.org/romanian-wor...ed-and?lang=en

This shows how difficult it is to address cases of deception, labour exploitation and erosion of social and labour standards and how difficult it is to administer responsibility. Cases are dealt by ad hoc measures, while legal constructions do not allow for proper identification of the offenders. All across Europe construction industry is avoiding paying hundreds of millions of Euros in tax and depriving workers of employment rights by switching them to a self-employed status, often with the help of specialist payroll companies.

So the hundreds of thousands (if not more) victims don't matter, because there are some that are not abused? Great logic there. I remember another swede saying that "Romanian/Polaks should be glad they get to work (and sleep in their car) in sweden"

[Bakis]

Now you are doing what you always do, trying to turn something into something else you really need to practice your debating skills.

Show me where I said

So the hundreds of thousands (if not more) victims don't matter, because there are some that are not abused?

Here is what I've had written, something factual unlike your made up stories.

It is a huge problem that western countries can offer the well educated people from other parts of Europe a better life.
Naturally it slows down their own countries progression, question is how do we fix it.

Does this quote rhime well with me totally ignoring injustices made towards cheap labour from central/eastern Europe to you?

Now to your second part of laughable accusations, this is yet another of your anecdotal proofs.

I remember another swede saying that "Romanian/Polaks should be glad they get to work (and sleep in their car) in sweden"

So one poster on an internet forum presumably said that and that prove that your mantra about western Europe only suck your people dry is true?

Are you really this bad at reasoning that you must twist words and use anecdotal evidence to prove your points?

[Cybran]

So one poster on an internet forum presumably said that and that prove that your mantra about western Europe only suck your people dry is true?

Do I have to link to where you said "Eastern Europeans come to Sweden to commit crime"? You are the last person to talk about generalizing.

Are you really this bad at reasoning that you must twist words and use anecdotal evidence to prove your points?

Hunderds of thoudands of abused people are not "anecdotical". No matter how much you try to rationalize it, Western European economies are profiting from exploiting the central/eastern european workers and there is 0 effort from the EU to stop this. This is a fact.

[Bakis]

Do I have to link to where you said "Eastern Europeans come to Sweden to commit crime"? You are the last person to talk about generalizing.

I've posted the report on organized crime from National Police force you cant read it but I bet you can ask some swede to translate it. Apart from Motorcycle gangs the the majority is controlled from Balticum and central/eastern Europe
Did you also read the links previously linked showing that in Denmark the largest foreign population of inmates are from Romania, in Norway it is the 2nd largest.
In Sweden it is illegal to trace ethnicity so I cant give you any data but I would be surprised if it is not the same.

Does that make all eastern europeans criminals, NO and I would bet 90%+ are not criminals but honest hardworking people.
Does it make them the largets group within crime tourism, YES.
You have to keep the two above apart.

----------------------------------------------------

Hunderds of thoudands of abused people are not "anecdotical". No matter how much you try to rationalize it, Western European economies are profiting from exploiting the central/eastern european workers and there is 0 effort from the EU to stop this. This is a fact

Anecdotal evidence is just what you wrote, let me quote.

I remember another swede saying that "Romanian/Polaks should be glad they get to work (and sleep in their car) in sweden"

You also are incapable due to your blind hate towards western Europe to keep the following two apart.
There is a big problem of people from central/eastern Europe getting abused in some countries particular with getting underpayed and cheated of social benefits.
(here is the tricky part that you refuse to understand, the next part is very very different from the above)
It is not put into law in western Europe to abuse foreign work forces, it is also not the most most common scenario that they get abused by shady/immoral/crminal employers.

I like the last part as well "and there is 0 effort from the EU to stop this. This is a fact." You previously posted a link about the problems,
guess what the title of YOUR link is Commission aims to help cross-border workers, yea they do nothing..


This will be the last time I write to you on the subject since after repeated tries you failed to comprehend even the most basic of things like understanding that one bad or good example does not mean that every case have to be like that.
Bad things happen, however it is not the norm or the outspoken agenda of the western countries so when you type stuff like "western Europe only look to abuse foreign people and suck central/eastern Europe dry" you simply make out yourself to be a person blinded by hate to the degree that you force yourself to see everything in black or white.
You are having all the trademarks of a fundamentalist in your reasoning.

Have a nice evening.

[mordale]

its where Dr. Doom's family is from?
and vlad tepes.

[Reeve]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...use-in-germany

Workers don't get any better treatment.

So you're saying they're paid well above the US minimum wage and also provided food and lodging? That doesn't sound bad at all.

[Cybran]

You also are incapable due to your blind hate towards western Europe to keep the following two apart.
There is a big problem of people from central/eastern Europe getting abused in some countries particular with getting underpayed and cheated of social benefits.
(here is the tricky part that you refuse to understand, the next part is very very different from the above)
It is not put into law in western Europe to abuse foreign work forces, it is also not the most most common scenario that they get abused by shady/immoral/crminal employers.

I like the last part as well "and there is 0 effort from the EU to stop this. This is a fact." You previously posted a link about the problems,
guess what the title of YOUR link is Commission aims to help cross-border workers, yea they do nothing..

It's not the law, but it's considered acceptable by the general population, there is no effort (from the destination countries and firms) to end it and a lot of the posters here are living evidence of that.

[Bad Management]

It's where all the criminals, beggars and freeloaders currently infesting Norway comes from...

[infracted]

[Orly]

It's where all the criminals, beggars and freeloaders currently infesting Norway comes from...

Norway? That country where Anders Breivik got off pretty easy after killing over 80 people after openly admitting it? Criminals, beggars and freeloads, all of them are subject to your laws while in your country and I'd say your less-punishing laws are to blame for the "attraction". Make them more severe. No nation will ever cry after their people doing a lot of time in someone else's prison for breaking the law THERE. Trust me.

---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 12:18 PM ----------

Commission aims to help cross-border workers, yea they do nothing..

Aiming an arrow does nothing in itself, the act of shooting it does. So yeah, by just "aiming" to help cross-border workers, they literally DO nothing.

What I think Cybran tried to point out is the fact that the delay of Germany laws regarding the subject should raise a lot of questions. Why? Because Germany and germans have a well-built reputation of being very ordered and thorough, something that is not upheld at all, as it appears in that article he provided. Again, why? Probably because it follows certain interests not to. It would be very naive of you to expect finding said interests at a simple google of the matter. If there are some interests, chances are they won't be common knowledge. But it's neither illegal nor wrong to make an educated guess about it, and I think that's what Cybran does.

[Bakis]

Norway? That country where Anders Breivik got off pretty easy after killing over 80 people after openly admitting it? Criminals, beggars and freeloads, all of them are subject to your laws while in your country and I'd say your less-punishing laws are to blame for the "attraction". Make them more severe. No nation will ever cry after their people doing a lot of time in someone else's prison for breaking the law THERE. Trust me.

---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 12:18 PM ----------



Aiming an arrow does nothing in itself, the act of shooting it does. So yeah, by just "aiming" to help cross-border workers, they literally DO nothing.

What I think Cybran tried to point out is the fact that the delay of Germany laws regarding the subject should raise a lot of questions. Why? Because Germany and germans have a well-built reputation of being very ordered and thorough, something that is not upheld at all, as it appears in that article he provided. Again, why? Probably because it follows certain interests not to. It would be very naive of you to expect finding said interests at a simple google of the matter. If there are some interests, chances are they won't be common knowledge. But it's neither illegal nor wrong to make an educated guess about it, and I think that's what Cybran does.

I'm not inclined to wear tin foil hats. You think legislation is a hasty business, especially on EU level where every single country need to agree to it?
So bring something concrete, the conspiracy theories doesn't hold much weight.
Cybran and me both agree there are problems, even big problems with workers being abused but unlike you and him I dont feel nor see anything in the lines of your grand conspiracy. If western Europe were poised to suck central/eastern europe dry (as he put it) you would not have been allowed access into the EU in the first place.

[Orly]

If western Europe were poised to suck central/eastern europe dry (as he put it) you would not have been allowed access into the EU in the first place.

Because those countries being in the EU doesn't facilitate at all the travel of workers, thus the abuses, right? If anything, it proves what Cybran says. Because being in the EU kinda opened the borders.

Tin foil hat or not, facts remain facts even if you are aware of them or not. The fact that there is life some hundred galaxies from here doesn't make it less of a fact if it's not public knowledge. And again, unlike Cybran I don't regard them as facts, but unlike YOU, I don't downright reject the possibilty.

Oh and, Romania is a nice country, to which Europe owes a lot, but is rather oblivious or doesn't admit it at all. I think it was already mentioned the fact that in medieval times Romania held its ground alone while the Ottoman empire tunneled its way in Europe up to and including Austria, which unlike Romania was part of the empire. Wonder what happened if the romanians didn't fought against them but actually helped them in their conquest? Maybe they would've reached France and Germany too. No EU today if that happened. That's something to think about.

Oh and gypsies come from India.

[vian]

One of the hottest and most awesome girls I've ever had the pleasure to play WoW with lives in Romania.

[Bakis]

One of the hottest and most awesome girls I've ever had the pleasure to play WoW with lives in Romania.

Mm same with the Balkan, I'm just a sucker for brown haired girls since I got so many blond ones where I live.
Nothing beats brunettes

[Cybran]

If western Europe were poised to suck central/eastern europe dry (as he put it) you would not have been allowed access into the EU in the first place.

To make the abuse and ruining of the people even better coordinated.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-dev...ng?INTCMP=SRCH

Although peasant farmers and smallholders have been moving off the land for decades, speculators and commodity crop farmers are taking over vast tracts of land, says the 200-page report.

This is seen widely in former Soviet states, say the 25 authors in 11 countries. In Ukraine, 10 giant agro-holdings now control about 2.8m hectares. One oligarch alone controls more than 500,000 hectares. Chinese companies have moved into Bulgaria on a large scale and Middle Eastern companies are now major producers in Romania.

After Decades of EU policies and regulations that ruined agriculture and drove generations of young people out of their homes, the freed up lands are being sold for cents on the dollar to huge EU backed companies that will employ and abuse the people that used to own the land.

There are dozens of such examples in every sphere of the economy. The EU is successfully destroying economies and profiting from their destruction.

[Orly]

After Decades of EU policies and regulations that ruined agriculture and drove generations of young people out of their homes, the freed up lands are being sold for cents on the dollar to huge EU backed companies that will employ and abuse the people that used to own the land.

There are dozens of such examples in every sphere of the economy. The EU is successfully destroying economies and profiting from their destruction.

Like the old English empire, only with added subtlety. But he'll regard this as tin foil hat conspiracy as well, I bet.

[vindicatorx]

other than they have a lot of cam girls not much.

[Bakis]

Like the old English empire, only with added subtlety. But he'll regard this as tin foil hat conspiracy as well, I bet.

Comparing the whole of modern western Europe with what one country did several decades <-> centuaries ago. GOOD JOB!
Now I know I dont need to feel bad about ignoring your posts in the future either

[Orly]

Comparing the whole of modern western Europe with what one country did several decades <-> centuaries ago. GOOD JOB!
Now I know I dont need to feel bad about ignoring your posts in the future either

Birds of a feather flock together? And I'm not comparing anything but results. But it doesn't surprise me at all that you didn't see it. Now I know I don't need to feel bad for siding with Cybran on this.