Was Azshara Born... A Troll?

[Justignoreme]

If you're going to get technical, he never said they were extinct. Just "mostly dead now." And considering he (and nobody else) had any idea that Pandaria existed at the time, he was correct with his statement regarding their known population.

My problem is this "canon" magazine blowing a ragged hole in existing lore and cdev never patching it back up anywhere. New lore continues to be made and goes right around it as if this magazine doesn't exist and older lore continues to be inconsistent with it. The other thing too, is assuming Brann isn't, well, drunk Lol. These are the same crap inconsistencies the RPG was full of which is why they were rendered non-canon. I like my story and lore to have continuity and consistency. I also would like fanwank kept to a minimum cause gets all over the place and people assume that *it* is canon as well.

Blizzards cdev team owes it to Night Elf *and* Troll fans to concisely and indisputably lay things out, in game. Via quests, dungeons, scenarios, a CoT clip, Lorewalker Cho, hell even some stupid flavour item from Archaeology, whatever. Even if it means the inevitable further denigration of Night Elf lore, it will be done, settled and in the open for everyone to see.

[StationaryHawk]

Where did you get Tyrande's age from?

If you're going to get technical, he never said they were extinct. Just "mostly dead now." And considering he (and nobody else) had any idea that Pandaria existed at the time, he was correct with his statement regarding their known population.

I'm fairly sure that the trolls were not originally on Pandaria before the mists parted. They arrived afterwards, looking to reforge alliances with the Mogu from before the Sundering. However, Drakkari are still "mostly dead now", as there's hardly a vast number of them on Pandaria currently.

[Deleted]

My problem is this "canon" magazine blowing a ragged hole in existing lore and cdev never patching it back up anywhere. New lore continues to be made and goes right around it as if this magazine doesn't exist and older lore continues to be inconsistent with it. The other thing too, is assuming Brann isn't, well, drunk Lol. These are the same crap inconsistencies the RPG was full of which is why they were rendered non-canon. I like my story and lore to have continuity and consistency. I also would like fanwank kept to a minimum cause gets all over the place and people assume that *it* is canon as well.

Blizzards cdev team owes it to Night Elf *and* Troll fans to concisely and indisputably lay things out, in game. Via quests, dungeons, scenarios, a CoT clip, Lorewalker Cho, hell even some stupid flavour item from Archaeology, whatever. Even if it means the inevitable further denigration of Night Elf lore, it will be done, settled and in the open for everyone to see.

I thought it was a given before that article that nelfs came from trolls. Personally I don't get why most people who play them don't like this, it just gives them a chance to be more pretentious about being the "finished product" so to speak. Then again I guess they lose out on the chance to say they were one of the first races.

Were going to see more Zandalari and explore their history and in doing this I'm guessing more lore surrounding how the nelfs came to be will surface. After all the Zandalari are the progenitor of all other trolls including the dark ones that the Nelfs are said to come from.

I think it's interesting to note that blizz seem to be drawing our attention to the waters of the vale and the effect they've had on the species around them. Perhaps a subtle hint regarding what happened with the dark trolls and the well of eternity. A very vague long shot I know but the waters going to come into play pretty soon and in a big way.

[Justignoreme]

I thought it was a given before that article that nelfs came from trolls. Personally I don't get why most people who play them don't like this, it just gives them a chance to be more pretentious about being the "finished product" so to speak. Then again I guess they lose out on the chance to say they were one of the first races.

Most Night Elves fans want nothing to do with trolls beyond putting them to the sword when they get rowdy. The idea of a "finished product" isn't really there. And then you have fanwanks saying the Night Elves were slaves of the Trolls at some point in time. The old lore had Trolls saying that Night Elves *had* to have come from them cause the only thing that can beat a troll is another troll.

Were going to see more Zandalari and explore their history and in doing this I'm guessing more lore surrounding how the nelfs came to be will surface. After all the Zandalari are the progenitor of all other trolls including the dark ones that the Nelfs are said to come from.

I think it's interesting to note that blizz seem to be drawing our attention to the waters of the vale and the effect they've had on the species around them. Perhaps a subtle hint regarding what happened with the dark trolls and the well of eternity. A very vague long shot I know but the waters going to come into play pretty soon and in a big way.

I suppose, though I'd have to say that if Night Elves knows or should know (or at least those sent to investigate the Vale should know) what characteristics the waters from the Well of Eternity are, by virtue of every Moonwell as well as the smaller well around Nordrassil containing these waters. It should be obvious from the get go that the Vale is another Well, at least to a Night Elf. But they aren't, Night Elves speak of these waters with awe and mystery. It has to be something more, if not, Night Elves are written as the thickest race ever -.-

[Elysia]

Where did you get Tyrande's age from?

I'm assuming he took it from the trivia on her page of WoWpedia:

• Tyrande was 13,836 years old during the Third War, according to the Warcraft III manual.

I'm fairly sure that the trolls were not originally on Pandaria before the mists parted. They arrived afterwards, looking to reforge alliances with the Mogu from before the Sundering. However, Drakkari are still "mostly dead now", as there's hardly a vast number of them on Pandaria currently.

And you're probably right. I haven't really kept up with lore in this expansion whatsoever.

[GennGreymane]

I really do hope that we get more loose ends tied here with the trolls and night elves.... my 2 favorite races (why couldnt genn be a troll or a night elf )

[Justignoreme]

I really do hope that we get more loose ends tied here with the trolls and night elves.... my 2 favorite races (why couldnt genn be a troll or a night elf )

He's a worgen, a curse brought about by Night Elves doing reckless things with nature like Trolls! He can be both in a very extraneous way xD

[GennGreymane]

He's a worgen, a curse brought about by Night Elves doing reckless things with nature like Trolls! He can be both in a very extraneous way xD

just via a magical curse and lore, not lineage, but thank u for trying to cheer me up

*drinks a keg with brann*

[Deleted]

Most Night Elves fans want nothing to do with trolls beyond putting them to the sword when they get rowdy. The idea of a "finished product" isn't really there. And then you have fanwanks saying the Night Elves were slaves of the Trolls at some point in time. The old lore had Trolls saying that Night Elves *had* to have come from them cause the only thing that can beat a troll is another troll.

Ah yes the old compendium. I miss the little touches like that. The trolls did rule over much of kalimdor before it all went to hell in the sundering and by nature are tribal. It's reasonable that a small tribe could have broken off and found the well but it's also reasonable that trolls only say nelfs come from them to save face.

Personally I think they do. If you look at the indigenous races of the planet untouched by titan interference, they're not pretty. They're either beasts or insects. Everything the titans touch becomes more aesthetically pleasing and usually more intelligent (dragon's anyone?).

Of course this hinges on the well being of titan origin and that's something that's never been clear (or at least to my knowledge). I read somewhere that they made it and elsewhere that it was the reason they came to Azeroth in the first place. We need some issues cleared up but I think Blizz likes keeping us in the dark and debating.

I suppose, though I'd have to say that if Night Elves knows or should know (or at least those sent to investigate the Vale should know) what characteristics the waters from the Well of Eternity are, by virtue of every Moonwell as well as the smaller well around Nordrassil containing these waters. It should be obvious from the get go that the Vale is another Well, at least to a Night Elf. But they aren't, Night Elves speak of these waters with awe and mystery. It has to be something more, if not, Night Elves are written as the thickest race ever -.-

Are there quests where the nelfs remark on the vale? I'd be interested to read them on wowhead. The waters look similar to what's under the world tree in Hyjal now but if the nelfs thinks it's different that throws up some interesting questions. The well of eternity was supposed to be a source of great arcane power, perhaps this water is of a different power source so it confuses them.

Also this is even more off topic but what was the deal with the world tree in northrend? How's that come into play with everything?

[GennGreymane]

world tree in northrend

planted later

roots hit yoggy

curropts it

[Justignoreme]

Ah yes the old compendium. I miss the little touches like that. The trolls did rule over much of kalimdor before it all went to hell in the sundering and by nature are tribal. It's reasonable that a small tribe could have broken off and found the well but it's also reasonable that trolls only say nelfs come from them to save face.

Personally I think they do. If you look at the indigenous races of the planet untouched by titan interference, they're not pretty. They're either beasts or insects. Everything the titans touch becomes more aesthetically pleasing and usually more intelligent (dragon's anyone?).

Which is why I still fancy the concept that perhaps Elune is a Titan and she shaped Trolls into Night Elves (since we are not going to shake he connection unless Blizz says otherwise). The reason I like this is because Titans are part of something bigger. Something that Night Elves seem to be attuned with and Trolls sadly aren't. Not as a race anyways. It also makes more sense for the "chosen few" to ascend to a Night Elf, since Dark Trolls, as a tribe/race etc still existed alongside the Night Elves apparently as allies. I'd like to think there's more to the glow to their eyes than just mere flavour. Silver is starlight, gold is the Light itself.

Of course this hinges on the well being of titan origin and that's something that's never been clear (or at least to my knowledge). I read somewhere that they made it and elsewhere that it was the reason they came to Azeroth in the first place. We need some issues cleared up but I think Blizz likes keeping us in the dark and debating.

Definitely need clarification however it seems unlikely they'd put the Well there knowing Old Gods were present and woven deep into the fabric of the planet itself.

Are there quests where the nelfs remark on the vale? I'd be interested to read them on wowhead. The waters look similar to what's under the world tree in Hyjal now but if the nelfs thinks it's different that throws up some interesting questions.

No, no quests, just interactions with NPCs, Lyalia, the Sentinels, seem to lend credence to the Vale waters being something new to them. In Krasarang the Pools of Youth was a story arc for the Alliance where the Night Elf Lorekeeper ascertains that the waters in the pools of you are a mix of Light and Shadow, the Shadow seemingly being put there by the Mogu's dark magic. These waters do not extend of give life, but merely allow the Mogu to transfer it, and as such they painfully sucked the life out of their torture victims to extend their own lives.

The well of eternity was supposed to be a source of great arcane power, perhaps this water is of a different power source so it confuses them.

Also this is even more off topic but what was the deal with the world tree in northrend? How's that come into play with everything?

The wall is a source of Arcane power. The Vale, imo, is a source of the Light. The Mogu know what it is, and apparently so do the Blacktalon agents. The Night Elves are researching it. We'll see how it plays out.

[Zstr]

Wtf go learn lore, it's night elf(kaldorei) -> trolls

[skrump]

We don't even know that. There's nothing, absolutely nothing, whatsoever stating that the Well had anything to do with Dark Troll to Night Elf at all, it's entirely assumed, but there's no timeline at all. The oldest "recorded" events are just coming to the surface with Pandaria, and the Night Elves and Trolls were fully separate empires and people at the time, 12000 years ago. Things like Dark Trolls actually still existing means not every Dark Troll became a Night Elf, and their presence in Hyjal and near Nordrassil, for arguably the last 10000 years, hasn't changed them which makes an "ascendancy" seem a lot more reasonable than an entire race evolving, like, say, the Chosen of Elune were graced with her image and transformed into a Night Elf, much like trolls can transform into a hybrid of their Loa.

Imo this bit of "confirmed" lore is merely a hook thrown out to get a fan response, as its evoked a lot of fan speculation (like other things). There is nothing in game, nothing in books, novels, hidden away ancient Night Elf lore or even Troll lore which makes any mention to it and the idea that Zandalari and Night Elven scholars wouldn't know this or be stating it endlessly, either way, is annoying, to say the least, since Night Elf and Troll lore is *supposed* to be very thorough, they were meticulous record keepers and scholars, both having large libraries and the Night Elves having thousands of years of memories on top of their acquired knowledge.

What we do have, since MoP, are parallels with Jinyu evolving from Murlocs as well as Flesh-shaping from Mogu turning basilisks into Saurok "perfect warriors". Perhaps the Zandalari made "perfect warriors" out of their Dark Troll underlings and the result was the Kal'dorei? In a one on one fight a troll's got nothing on a night elf so perhaps it was this. Or it was like the simple murlocs evolving into the wise and noble Jinyu by being exposed to the well?

They dropped the ball with this route and have yet to explain it. Blizzard often loses continuity with their own story so its no surprise.
As for Azshara, she was never a troll, the Night Elves were fully separated from anything troll when she came to power and while not immortal, their multi-millennia life-spans may as well have been compared to the 40-50 years a troll lives, max.

---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 02:14 AM ----------



that was never stated anywhere. it was a fanwank that got onto wowpedia some how.

I dunno the fact the the lore of wow even speculated the belief that trolls evolved into Nightelfs duo to contact with the well is more than enough for me as it is speculation written by those who actually write the lore and was actually placed in the game to cause heated discussion, either way the elfs ended up as the superior species, though again with all the retcons the Dev's have made to lore overall it's rather shameful and confusing.

[twinkleblur]

ur forgetting something..it only took blood elves 2000 years to not look like night elves anymore and trolls and night elves still have alot of very common features. (ears,height,tusks..yes i said tusks..go look it up)

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I wish they take back the Dark Troll---->Night Elf origins. It really hurt Night Elf lore IMO.

[Verdugo]

It would surprise me if she was born a troll, because evolution takes place over the course of generations.

Not in Pokemon!

[Justignoreme]

ur forgetting something..it only took blood elves 2000 years to not look like night elves anymore and trolls and night elves still have alot of very common features. (ears,height,tusks..yes i said tusks..go look it up)

High Elves, aside from a smaller stature and more delicate features, are clearly elves. Long ears, long eyebrows, fangs, similar culture, etc. etc. Night Elf culture and Troll cultures have a lot more differences than similarities...
Night Elves don't have tusks, at all, anywhere. They have fangs, fangs are not tusks, troll tusks come from the skull of the troll and out of the bottom of their mouths, Elven fangs are overgrown canine teeth. Night Elves don't have nasty feet with heel toes or whatever that thing is trolls have which looks almost like some kind of bird's foot. They have "normal" hands with 4 digits and a thumb and they aren't hunched over.
Seriously, pointy ears and fangs are common place on countless creatures in wow. Same with tusks. Draenei can have purple skin, glowing eyes and pointy ears, they must be related to Night Elves. Orcs have tusks, green skin and pointy ears, they should be related to Trolls, no?

However Zandalari trolls are getting a model revamp. *IF* and this is a big if, they make Zandalari trolls look more like *night elves* there could be something far more intriguing with this story...

I wish they take back the Dark Troll---->Night Elf origins. It really hurt Night Elf lore IMO.

Indeed. It was just one line in an out-of-print magazine anyways. They can wash it away as easily as they sneezed it forward. Really, they should.

[Deleted]

i like this it fits, however i would have thought it was more that she was the first niht elf born with immortality due to the well.
night elves were around but not immortal yet and she was the first meaning her parents died from old age but as she didn't it's why she is stil around and they are not.
it would make sence that the immortality came as they gained further attunament to the well, first it changed there form then a few generations later after being changed for a few gens in a row they were more in tune with the well, and possiblly all the shamans folowing the loa instead of arcane were gone meaning they were more free to "experiment" with the well and how it's waters efected them and how they effected it.

[GennGreymane]

as i stated some racial transformations happen within a generation and only when magic is invovled

blood/ high elves are differnt because it was simply the after effects of a lack of that magical source

[Deleted]

i was always under the impression that they gradually evolved to night elves, over a long period of time