Page 5 of 17 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
7
15
... LastLast
  1. #81
    Stood in the Fire mjolnir1122's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Colville, WA
    Posts
    430
    Both sides are equally at fault here, and I'm tired of each side blaming the other while they're all acting like children.

    The reps won't budge because they don't want to impose more taxes, the dems won't budge because they want to impose taxes on the rich.

    These people make enough money where even with a tax hike, it won't affect them, so all of us are left to suffer instead.

    However, when it comes to the interest of the parties, the reps want to cut spending across the board, eliminating any costs and positions that don't need to be there, whereas the dems are holding their breath, stomping their feet, and threatening to gouge defense spending because they want to spend the money expanding the gov't even more. That's where my concern lies in all honesty

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    I don't watch TV news and I've never heard of that website.

    I do know they are willing to cut spending, but that needs to happen either way.

    I'm talking specifically about their reasons for a "revenue problem."
    The problem is you're assuming dropping revenues are solely from economic stagnation and have nothing to do with plummeting tax rates.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    So because you don't hear it (confirmation bias ho!) that means they aren't aware?

    By this reasoning how can you not be aware the sky is blue?
    Well if they're aware, why is there no mention?

    And besides, fixing unemployment is a much more effective method.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Ah, that makes more sense. We do need to get people back to work but the business refuse to hire and if they do, they do for part time jobs and won't pay adequately so they can even afford to pay taxes. In order to do that, we have to raise minimum wage to livable standards and mandate that companies can only have a certain percentage of part time jobs. If they can afford to hire 300 part timers than they can afford to hire 100 full timers instead.

    Also have to get more companies to manufacture out here. I would say a tariff on foreign made goods would do it. Make it more expensive to make the goods in china and sell them here than to make them here and sell them here without actually lowering our wages or standard of living.

    Also, legalizing weed and would open up a whole new growing base for US Based companies. FYI: A non-smoker here, just thinking of what would financially benefit the people best and it would lower costs of the weed down to probably about $8 for something the size of cigarettes while bringing in billions in tax revenue and cripple organized crime while reducing the need for prisons and lowering our low enforcement costs by billions per year.
    All of those are good ideas which are being blocked by special interests. Unions don't want labor law reform (beyond minimum wage, which actually just devalues the dollar) because it would make them even more obsolete in the present time than they already are. Major manufacturers provide a huge chunk of campaign contributions. For some reason we still have crazy morality police in this world who think it is their job to keep people from acquiring the narcotics they want from legitimate, crime free, taxed, and regulated sources.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    Well if they're aware, why is there no mention?
    This is completely irrational and you know why.
    And besides, fixing unemployment is a much more effective method.
    "FIX UNEMPLOYMENT" button got stuck

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Ok Riidii, and how would you fix the issue?
    Legalize weed.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 12:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    This is completely irrational and you know why.

    "FIX UNEMPLOYMENT" button got stuck
    They won't mention because...politics?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    I don't watch TV news and I've never heard of that website.

    I do know they are willing to cut spending, but that needs to happen either way.

    I'm talking specifically about their reasons for a "revenue problem."
    Well I would imagine the 'revenue problem' is the fact that numerous things have been enacted that the government has to pay for without being funded. Specifically two wars, Medicare Part D, Bush Era Tax Cuts, and the Bailouts.

    Meanwhile massive austerity cuts creates huge problems for service based economies, which is why there should be tax increases and small cuts. It will be less bad short term and much better long term.

  8. #88
    Here is what needs to happen.

    We need to cut our military budget MASSIVELY. We have spent 711 BILLION dollars in 2012 on it 4.7% of our GDP. The next highest nation was China that spent 117 Billon or 2% of its GDP. So we spent literally over 4 times what the next country did, more than double by percentage of GDP. We could lower our Military budget to less than 300 Billion and still be OVERLY protected compared to other countries. Making them build and design their own aircraft, ships and tanks like they did in the past was much cheaper and much less of a security risk than allowing other to build it for us at a profit as well, as would remove a lot of abuse of the system by said contractors.

    We need Nation Healthcare. As in paid by taxes directly. We spend more than any other nation again for what is crap quality compared to other nations. We could make it a carbon copy of the Canadian style healthcare system and then scrap our Medicare, Medicaid, VA Hospital, and the Congress/Senate/Presidential healthcare plans entire and remove insurance from the equation. We spend more on Medicare than many other nations spend on their entire systems. This would cut upward our costs by 33-66% with massive increases in quality. Also, then no company can cut hours to avoid paying healthcare to its employees or even use healthcare as a benefit to working with them.

    We need to raise minimum wage to a livable stand and tie it to the rate of inflation that is re-evaluated every 3-6 months and adjusted accordingly and give the companies no more than 3 months to adjust to said change. We also need to require companies that make more than a certain threshold or that hires above a certain number of people have a certain percentage of their people (to be set later as I don't have the required information to set it at a good point) full time, allow it to be variable depending on their budget and number of employees but we can't allow a company making millions a year in profit have 500 employees with only about 40 being full time like they are trying to do now. Any company that is established should be required to have as few part timers as possible.

    We also need to attract companies to manufacture their goods here as well. A tariff on foreign made goods would work wonders here as our market is still among the biggest and so they would still to do this just to get a piece of the action. But the further our market dies the less effective this would be. Make it cheaper to manufacture goods here and sell them here than to make them elsewhere and sell them here.

    We need to legalize pot, tax it and regulate it heavily just as we cigarettes and alcohol. It would keep billions in our economy other than having them stream into Mexico, Canada and other nations and bring in billions in tax revenue. It would also cripple the local and foreign organized crime that rely on it and cut our prison population and with it our law enforcement budget drastically.

    Next, would make condoms and birth control free and the day after pill for all and paid for by taxes no questions asked or parents neeeded. Allowing everyone access to these simple things would cut the number of unplanned births drastically as they would no longer require parents to get them and even the poor can afford them with ease. People are always gonna fuck, whether they use protection or not depends on how easy it is to get for many of them. And decreasing the number of unplanned children works wonders in a myriad of areas. I would also work on a reliable, no/low-risk birth control for men that can be taken as a pill similar to women, so men can control that themselves for the ones who dislike condoms and the only form I have seen for men takes an injection into the penis regularly and fuck that shit.

    There is more, but this is a decent start and this post is getting WAY too long.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 12:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    All of those are good ideas which are being blocked by special interests. Unions don't want labor law reform (beyond minimum wage, which actually just devalues the dollar) because it would make them even more obsolete in the present time than they already are. Major manufacturers provide a huge chunk of campaign contributions. For some reason we still have crazy morality police in this world who think it is their job to keep people from acquiring the narcotics they want from legitimate, crime free, taxed, and regulated sources.
    I know Special interests are blocking many of them. But how are Unions blocking Labor reform?

  9. #89
    Scarab Lord DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    USA, more fascist every day
    Posts
    4,406
    It is not possible to solve the problems we have by raising taxes. If you wanted to raise taxes to the extent that it would in theory solve even one fifth of the deficit, you would blow up the economy. Raising taxes is pointless unless the opposition is willing to cut spending (including heavy entitlement cuts) at the very least at a 10 to 1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases. Democrats would never agree to something like that and as such, the problem is unsolvable regardless of what Republicans stance is on tax cuts, because the problem wouldn't be solved regardless unless those drastic cuts are made. Presenting this like its tax hikes or spending cuts is ignorant. Massive spending cuts are needed no matter how much you raise taxes otherwise the problem is unsolvable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    We need to raise minimum wage...

    We also need to attract companies to manufacture their goods here as well.
    You do realize that those two things are mutually exclusive and that your tariff solution would blow up the economy correct?
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    It is not possible to solve the problems we have by raising taxes. If you wanted to raise taxes to the extent that it would in theory solve even one fifth of the deficit, you would blow up the economy. Raising taxes is pointless unless the opposition is willing to cut spending (including heavy entitlement cuts) at the very least at a 10 to 1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases. Democrats would never agree to something like that and as such, the problem is unsolvable regardless of what Republicans stance is on tax cuts, because the problem wouldn't be solved regardless unless those drastic cuts are made. Presenting this like its tax hikes or spending cuts is ignorant. Massive spending cuts are needed no matter how much you raise taxes otherwise the problem is unsolvable.
    Everything you said was wrong. That must suck. Dems did offer 10:1 spending cuts to tax increases, and it was refused by the republicans.

    We are well to the left of where we should be on the laffer curve, and well to the left of where all those other evil western countries are regarding effective tax rates. Ironically, 'entitlements' are better for the US economy then things like massive foreign aid and having military bases in other countries so the money the soldiers get gets spent there, as well as locally bought supplies.

    Meanwhile, people like you who ignore history and think Austerity is the way to go are a huge problem with our country.

  11. #91
    Scarab Lord DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    USA, more fascist every day
    Posts
    4,406
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Everything you said was wrong. That must suck. Dems did offer 10:1 spending cuts to tax increases, and it was refused by the republicans.

    We are well to the left of where we should be on the laffer curve, and well to the left of where all those other evil western countries are regarding effective tax rates. Ironically, 'entitlements' are better for the US economy then things like massive foreign aid and having military bases in other countries so the money the soldiers get gets spent there, as well as locally bought supplies.

    Meanwhile, people like you who ignore history and think Austerity is the way to go are a huge problem with our country.
    Spending cuts that are simply cuts in future increases meaning that the deficit still continues to expand just not so fast are not cuts (especially when we know they will just pass bills reappropriating the money later). A cut is where you spend less, not where you continue to spend more at a faster rate than inflation and GDP growth. I know my history, and apparently I actually understand it unlike you. If you eliminate the entire DoD (have fun while the nation falls apart), you might solve 2/3 of our deficit. Military cuts also cannot possibly solve this problem. If you don't touch entitlements, it will not be solved. Complain all you want about taxes and the military, but you will not solve the problem or make a major dent in it just on those points.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    You do realize that those two things are mutually exclusive and that your tariff solution would blow up the economy correct?
    You do realize that America is still one of the biggest markets on the planet and the companies will do whatever they have to have a piece of it. That includes paying livable wages that still allows them to be profitable while moving manufacturing here if it is cheaper than making it in slave nations for them.

    So then, tell me what you would do? How would the economy blow up if it becomes cheaper to make goods sold in the US than to make goods in China to be sold in the US? Sure it might lower imports but many companies will start making more locally to avoid them tariffs.

    And when you advocate making everything about free trade and no one is playing by the rules but you, you lose and many other companies have ways of protecting their own from the free market.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    Spending cuts that are simply cuts in future increases meaning that the deficit still continues to expand just not so fast are not cuts (especially when we know they will just pass bills reappropriating the money later). A cut is where you spend less, not where you continue to spend more at a faster rate than inflation and GDP growth. I know my history, and apparently I actually understand it unlike you. If you eliminate the entire DoD (have fun while the nation falls apart), you might solve 2/3 of our deficit. Military cuts also cannot possibly solve this problem. If you don't touch entitlements, it will not be solved. Complain all you want about taxes and the military, but you will not solve the problem or make a major dent in it just on those points.
    Ironically I didn't say I wanted to eliminate the entire DoD nor did I say Military cuts would solve the problem by themselves. I also never claimed that we shouldn't touch entitlements. Strawman away, all that means is you don't have a leg to stand on and you know it.

  14. #94
    Scarab Lord DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    USA, more fascist every day
    Posts
    4,406
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    You do realize that America is still one of the biggest markets on the planet and the companies will do whatever they have to have a piece of it. That includes paying livable wages that still allows them to be profitable while moving manufacturing here if it is cheaper than making it in slave nations for them.

    So then, tell me what you would do? How would the economy blow up if it becomes cheaper to make goods sold in the US than to make goods in China to be sold in the US? Sure it might lower imports but many companies will start making more locally to avoid them tariffs.

    And when you advocate making everything about free trade and no one is playing by the rules but you, you lose and many other companies have ways of protecting their own from the free market.
    Those goods that are cheaper to make in the US are also far more expensive now that companies have to pay a much higher cost for labor (the largest cost for most companies) and to make it worse, you just made that cost even higher by raising the already too high minimum wage. Less goods would be produced and the price of goods would rise significantly. In the end, those people who you raised wages for would have less buying power and the nation as a whole would be substantially weaker having lost the ability to trade in any significant way with other nations (not to mention the riots and revolutionary actions you would be facing having just reduced the standard of living for the poor and middle class by making what they consume cost significantly more above and beyond the increase of the wages buying power). An even worse case scenario, is that it would still be more profitable to manufacture overseas because of your increased wages overshadowing the tariffs, and then imported goods would still be purchased by Americans at a higher price to offset the tariff without America even gaining anything out of the deal. Your solution really only has the potential to harm both the nation as a whole and the lower classes which you seem to want to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Ironically I didn't say I wanted to eliminate the entire DoD nor did I say Military cuts would solve the problem by themselves. I also never claimed that we shouldn't touch entitlements. Strawman away, all that means is you don't have a leg to stand on and you know it.
    I don't care what you actually want and I never said that is what you wanted. I am trying to get the scale of the problem across by stating that even eliminating it entirely wouldn't fully solve the problem. You’re complaining about taxes and the military just distracts from the issue at hand of solving the deficit problem because they will not have a meaningful impact in any actual solution. The more you talk about things that won't have significant effects, the more people come to believe that those things are all that need to be changed and that everything else would only be cut specifically to hurt poor people (as a great many ill informed Americans think).

    On the subject of the military, you could cut tens of billions just by having congress actually listen to the military itself when funding the military. I know plenty of people in the military who could tell you any number of things that are wasteful and completely not needed. Just get more impute on the military budget from the military itself and you could cut some without harming our national defense and offensive capacity. Sadly, this can't solve the overarching problem of the deficit or have a meaningful impact on it. The deficit is simply too big for that to be a major component of fixing it.
    Last edited by DEATHETERNAL; 2012-11-28 at 06:24 AM.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    Those goods that are cheaper to make in the US are also far more expensive now that companies have to pay a much higher cost for labor (the largest cost for most companies) and to make it worse, you just made that cost even higher by raising the already too high minimum wage. Less goods would be produced and the price of goods would rise significantly. In the end, those people who you raised wages for would have less buying power and the nation as a whole would be substantially weaker having lost the ability to trade in any significant way with other nations (not to mention the riots and revolutionary actions you would be facing having just reduced the standard of living for the poor and middle class by making what they consume cost significantly more above and beyond the increase of the wages buying power). An even worse case scenario, is that it would still be more profitable to manufacture overseas because of your increased wages overshadowing the tariffs, and then imported goods would still be purchased by Americans at a higher price to offset the tariff without America even gaining anything out of the deal. Your solution really only has the potential to harm both the nation as a whole and the lower classes which you seem to want to help.
    You do realize that minimum wage hasn't kept up with the rate of inflation since 1981 and they actually pay LESS now than they did back then? So minimum wage isn't too high, quite the opposite, it is WAY too low.

    The price of good would raise marginally, the economy and spending would increase radically. Unless you are calling Henry Ford a corporate idiot with how he ran the Ford company when he first started.

    Sorry man, I can't even argue against you on this cause you are so far off, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin and it would take more time and effort than I have available at the moment to set you straight and you still wouldn't believe me.

    History has shown that you are wrong on this one.

  16. #96
    Scarab Lord DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    USA, more fascist every day
    Posts
    4,406
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    You do realize that minimum wage hasn't kept up with the rate of inflation since 1981 and they actually pay LESS now than they did back then? So minimum wage isn't too high, quite the opposite, it is WAY too low.

    The price of good would raise marginally, the economy and spending would increase radically. Unless you are calling Henry Ford a corporate idiot with how he ran the Ford company when he first started.

    Sorry man, I can't even argue against you on this cause you are so far off, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin and it would take more time and effort than I have available at the moment to set you straight and you still wouldn't believe me.

    History has shown that you are wrong on this one.
    And the minimum wage is still too high as it is very far above the market value of labor. Fordism failed. I honestly can't give you any measure of respect when you talk to me about knowing history and then talk about Henry Ford's failed economic theory to support your argument. You don’t seem to have any grasp of how the real world economy works and that may be due to looking at failed theories and mistakenly thinking they were successes when history clearly shows otherwise. I hope you truly don't have time to present your case and aren't just knowingly wrong and retreating before imminent defeat. Also, Henry Ford was an idiot personally. He had enough brains to hire smart people to run things for him and he said as much when questioned in court on the subject of his ineptitude in business matters. Learn history, don’t make it up.
    Last edited by DEATHETERNAL; 2012-11-28 at 06:29 AM.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  17. #97
    Fordism failed? Not sure how you are getting that one.

  18. #98
    Scarab Lord DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    USA, more fascist every day
    Posts
    4,406
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Fordism failed? Not sure how you are getting that one.
    From the fact that the nation relatively quickly moved beyond it as a legitimate economic theory. Fordism hasn't been truly practiced on a nationwide scale for well over half a century. The reasons for which can be easily observed when simply looking at the theory. A theory that revolved around paying based on what is produced instead of paying based on a market value for the type of labor needed is not one that will serve you. To clarify if this wasn't understood, I'm referring to the part of Fordism involving what you pay your employees, not standardization or assembly lines or other manufacturing practices which have nothing to do with an overarching economic theory as is being argued.
    Last edited by DEATHETERNAL; 2012-11-28 at 06:37 AM.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    And the minimum wage is still too high as it is very far above the market value of labor. Fordism failed. I honestly can't give you any measure of respect when you talk to me about knowing history and then talk about Henry Ford's failed economic theory to support your argument. You don’t seem to have any grasp of how the real world economy works and that may be due to looking at failed theories and mistakenly thinking they were successes when history clearly shows otherwise. I hope you truly don't have time to present your case and aren't just knowingly wrong and retreating before imminent defeat. Also, Henry Ford was an idiot personally. He had enough brains to hire smart people to run things for him and he said as much when questioned in court on the subject of his ineptitude in business matters. Learn history, don’t make it up.
    Wait, so you think it is just fine if the people at the bottom are stuck working 105 hours a week and still be so broke to put a roof over your head while the guys at the top live as virtual kings? You say they make MORE than they are worth even when they bring in several times what they are paid? Are you fucking insane?

    Minimum wage is still too low cause the value of Labor is being lowered below it's ACTUAL value. If they go with your model, the people at the top have everything while the ones at the bottom have nothing. THAT will be a riot or a complete economic collapse, probably both.

    History has shown when the taxes at the top were higher, the pay at the bottom was higher, and we had a strong middle class, the economy thrived as the middle and lower class are the ones spending a great deal of their money on goods and services while the vast majority at the top stays at the top and just gets saved or invested.

    History has shown when you give the ones at the bottom next to nothing and allow the ones at the top to have everything, there will major economic collapse with hell to pay when the peasant rebel at the ones holding all the power.
    Last edited by Fugus; 2012-11-28 at 06:39 AM.

  20. #100
    Your claim does not follow. I mean it isn't even true. Costco employs it. The thing is it requires corporate leadership to engage in a certain mindset that corporate culture has little interest in.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •