Bot, a natural response to game design flaws?

[Kissme]

Bots are a symptom of the real problem with the game design, and no, the problem isn't grinds. The problem is the fact that the entire focus of the game's community has become fixated solely on gear. There are minor exceptions to this, but in general people are doing whatever they are doing in the game solely to attain gear. Why do they raid? To get the best gear. Why do they do arenas/BGs/etc? To get the best gear. Some of them might say something along the lines of "I'm doing it to improve my character." but it amounts to the same thing. And what's really funny about it is that people are doing activities they don't enjoy strictly to improve gear that in many cases they don't use. Then some of them use bots to automate doing something they don't enjoy.

Here's the question - if you enjoy pvp, why would you use a bot to grind honor? Shouldn't the pvp itself be the goal? The same applies to every other activity. You should do what you enjoy and the gear/character improvement should be a bonus for doing what you enjoy. Basically, doing what you enjoy should be the goal and the gear should be a bonus which enables you to continue doing what you enjoy at a higher level. The problem is that the gear has become the focus and enjoying the process by which you gain the gear has become bonus or, in the case of botters, unneccessary. This is a serious game design flaw, but it's not tied to grinds. It's tied to player perception of the necessity of grinds. Instead of going out to pvp and getting gear as a result, they go out to get gear and pvp as a result.

You can exclude world class guilds and top rank pvpers from this generalization on the whole, but for the majority of the WoW community the idea that the journey is what matters and the gear is just a side benefit has been lost. Bots are just a symptom of this psyche shift.

[ngc2440]

But not everything is as simple as you think. Take the "uban violence" for example, specially in a third world country, if someone robs you, the robber is guilty, yes of course, but the state is also responsible for unemployment, bad education, bad distribution of money, etc etc etc.

You can blame all on the "evil doer", but you must always think about the reallity in which the person is inserted.

Sure you can ban all the botters, but the game won't become more fun because of it, the problem will still persist, and Blizzard will have less subscriptions.

Wait, you are trying to support botting by comparing it to someone mugging someone else in a third world country? El oh el!

According to your logic I propose this situation. I want to be a doctor. But that would require me to get really high grades in high school in order to have a shot at it plus volunteer work. I know if I cheat my way through the tests I will not only have more time for volunteering I can also goof off more. Win-win!

[Stede]

Yes. They are a natural reaction to game's design flaws. But mostly, they're a shortcut for guys who just wanna get to the fun parts. Indeed, the intial motivation for bots was just that - to skip through the grindy parts bc once you've done it all once, doing it again just isn't the same. Morality aside, it often strikes me as paradoxical that we play a game on an instruments designed to increase efficiency, but forego its use for said purpose within the framework of the game.

I'm not gonna say they're justified. I just understand why people use them. I agree that the genre of the game is a bit grindy, though.

One area where bots and automation have arisen primarily due to game design flaws, rather than laziness or wanting a shortcut, though, is tradeskills. We all know the guy with 1000 auctions posted everyday. Even with add-ons managing that inventory, it takes an inordinate amount of time to process everything. Blizzard has repeatedly signalled that they want people out in the world and not in Stormwind, mashing a prospect macro every 5 seconds - like a monkey. Like a bot.

And yet, if folks don't do it, enchants are unobtainable for most folks because materials prices stay sky-high. And Darkmoon cards? Glyphs? If there were an npc who could perform bulk-tradeskill operations for a player for a set fee over a much longer period of time (including time the player spends offline), then the player could go do things in the game while an npc prospected his 100 stacks of Ghost Iron Ore over the next 2 hours for a price of ~200g.

When he finished his LFR or came back from the movie he left to go watch, he could pick up the gems from the NPC. This would be intelligent game design. This highlights the current flaws. Stuff like this - mashing a single button every five seconds for 60+ minutes - it's not fun. It's Blizzard treating the player like a bot. So, I think those bots arose out of a failed game design more than simple greed or wanting to cheat.

Any time I hear someone say, "You have to do the work to get the rewards," I laugh. This is a game. It's not a job. has reality blurred so much for some of you that you can't tell the difference?

Bonus - wanna get rid of gatherbots? Make Gathering (mining / herbalism / skinning) into secondary professions so that anyone can gather while they're out questing or doing whatever. Think it through. The landscape of the economy would be revolutionized.

[ro9ue]

I dont blame someone wanting to focus on the things in-game he finds fun, and let the bot do the things he finds tedious.

Agreed. And 100% agree with OP. I don't play WoW anymore, but I stay on these boards because I have an interest in video games. You should play the game to have fun, that's it. I look at FPS, people bot high levels all the time, but they still hop on and play for the sake of playing.

WoW to me has the issue every MMO has. Too many things in it. I played EverQuest, so inb4 people say omg you don't know what an MMO should be. I do. I used to love them. However when the game gets to the point where you keep changing focus on what the primary gameplay is, from raiding, to dungeoning, to now daily rep grinding, you are constantly forced to only go down one of those avenues to achieve the reward you want.

I think the next step for MMOs is to have all those options, but have all the rewards the same. I can say the only thing I like doing in WoW is playing random BGs, and only a few. If I could just do WSG and Twin Peaks over and over and work towards the reward I want, I'd still be playing. But things I want to achieve, particularly the shado-pan panther mounts are behind a ridiculous gauntlet of months worth of dailies... and thats if I log in every day.

For me it was just a choice to go to a game I can hop on, play the game because its fun, and log out. Maybe my priorities changed in life, but people are going to do what they want. If someone wants to bot, let them do it, it means they don't find that content interesting. If you tell people you can do any activity in the MMO and allocate reward points into whatever area you want, then it becomes more about fun. Right now its a skinner box.

[Stede]

Bots are a symptom of the real problem with the game design, and no, the problem isn't grinds. The problem is the fact that the entire focus of the game's community has become fixated solely on gear. There are minor exceptions to this, but in general people are doing whatever they are doing in the game solely to attain gear. Why do they raid? To get the best gear. Why do they do arenas/BGs/etc? To get the best gear. Some of them might say something along the lines of "I'm doing it to improve my character." but it amounts to the same thing. And what's really funny about it is that people are doing activities they don't enjoy strictly to improve gear that in many cases they don't use. Then some of them use bots to automate doing something they don't enjoy.

Here's the question - if you enjoy pvp, why would you use a bot to grind honor? Shouldn't the pvp itself be the goal? The same applies to every other activity. You should do what you enjoy and the gear/character improvement should be a bonus for doing what you enjoy. Basically, doing what you enjoy should be the goal and the gear should be a bonus which enables you to continue doing what you enjoy at a higher level. The problem is that the gear has become the focus and enjoying the process by which you gain the gear has become bonus or, in the case of botters, unneccessary. This is a serious game design flaw, but it's not tied to grinds. It's tied to player perception of the necessity of grinds. Instead of going out to pvp and getting gear as a result, they go out to get gear and pvp as a result.

You can exclude world class guilds and top rank pvpers from this generalization on the whole, but for the majority of the WoW community the idea that the journey is what matters and the gear is just a side benefit has been lost. Bots are just a symptom of this psyche shift.

One other thing to think about - because you bring up a lot of good points - is how several other gaming genres have become more social with the prolification of voice comms and broadband. FPS on consoles with friends lists and what have you. Folks are used to being able to play with others on an even level. Unfortunately the example of PvP in WoW can fall pretty short - especially if you're trying to catch up to your buds so that you can play with them. It's where the social aspect of the game conflicts with the RPG aspect.

[Drakesong]

Bots are a symptom of the real problem with the game design, and no, the problem isn't grinds. The problem is the fact that the entire focus of the game's community has become fixated solely on gear. There are minor exceptions to this, but in general people are doing whatever they are doing in the game solely to attain gear. Why do they raid? To get the best gear. Why do they do arenas/BGs/etc? To get the best gear. Some of them might say something along the lines of "I'm doing it to improve my character." but it amounts to the same thing. And what's really funny about it is that people are doing activities they don't enjoy strictly to improve gear that in many cases they don't use. Then some of them use bots to automate doing something they don't enjoy.

Here's the question - if you enjoy pvp, why would you use a bot to grind honor? Shouldn't the pvp itself be the goal? The same applies to every other activity. You should do what you enjoy and the gear/character improvement should be a bonus for doing what you enjoy. Basically, doing what you enjoy should be the goal and the gear should be a bonus which enables you to continue doing what you enjoy at a higher level. The problem is that the gear has become the focus and enjoying the process by which you gain the gear has become bonus or, in the case of botters, unneccessary. This is a serious game design flaw, but it's not tied to grinds. It's tied to player perception of the necessity of grinds. Instead of going out to pvp and getting gear as a result, they go out to get gear and pvp as a result.

You can exclude world class guilds and top rank pvpers from this generalization on the whole, but for the majority of the WoW community the idea that the journey is what matters and the gear is just a side benefit has been lost. Bots are just a symptom of this psyche shift.

I don't know if I agree or not. When you say that the problem is not related to grinds, but to gear, it's basically the same, because you grind to get gear (or upgrade your existant one)., so one thing is related to the other.

For example, in PvP, the game was desinged so the ones with better gear win easily, it doesn't matter if you are a good player or not, if you have "green" gear and the other has full epics, he will most certanly win. So gear, imo, is not a player perception of the necessity of grinds, but a real necessity imposed by the game (if you want to have fun, because, let's agree what being killed countless times to pvpers, or wiping all night because your gear is not high enought, is not fun).

And I believe this is the main goal designed for world of warcraft, always have better gear to get, if not, you wouldn't see your gear becoming outdated every major patch.

[zoomgpally]

"Thread: Bot, a natural response to game design flaws?"

No. Bots are the 'natural response' of lazy fucking wankers who don't want to put in effort or time but reap the same rewards. Period.

If you believe its anything else, you need a new brain.

+ 1 million internets for this guy!

[Drakesong]

Wait, you are trying to support botting by comparing it to someone mugging someone else in a third world country? El oh el!

According to your logic I propose this situation. I want to be a doctor. But that would require me to get really high grades in high school in order to have a shot at it plus volunteer work. I know if I cheat my way through the tests I will not only have more time for volunteering I can also goof off more. Win-win!

Your last responses clearly indicates that you have reading and understanding problems...

[ro9ue]

Wrong. Lazy is just Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness. You can be lazy even with your hobbies.

I do wish everyone who bot got a perma-ban. Sure it wouldn't stop the more serious botters but it would certainly stop quite a few entitled people in their tracks.

Lol but if you don't want to do it... its not fun. That's his point.

[ngc2440]

Your last responses clearly indicates that you have reading and understanding problems...

-shrug- If you say so.

Lol but if you don't want to do it... its not fun. That's his point.

Well then he is just pointing out the obvious. Sky is blue, grass is green, etc...

[Stede]

I spent about 4 weeks of playing in MoP before I realized that my main's class just wasn't going to be fun for me to play in PvP. The idea of levelling another toon 85-90, and grinding gear out so that I could play with my buds without holding them back - and how many hours that would take - it's daunting.

I didn't want a reward. I wanted to play with my friends and enjoy the game. If there was a bot that could warp me there that didn't suck, I'd have used it. If there was a $10 fee I could pay to warp me there, I'd use it. It wouldn't be for the rewards. It'd be for the entertainment of being able to play with friends.

So anybody who says otherwise is a disingenuous, brainwashed douchebag who is so self-unaware that they can't realize the reality and depth of their psychological dependence on the grindiness of the game. These are the same people who are so bad at real life that the escape into games where the time they spend on them makes them better than other folks, because in the real-world, they simply can't compete with the efficiencies of a balanced, well-adjusted person.

If you don't get it, do us all a favor - shut the fuck up and don't presume to speak for things that you admittedly don't understand.

If that doesn't work, you can stay mad - I don't think bots are going anywhere anytime soon. gl;hf.

[ngc2440]

I spent about 4 weeks of playing in MoP before I realized that my main's class just wasn't going to be fun for me to play in PvP. The idea of levelling another toon 85-90, and grinding gear out so that I could play with my buds without holding them back - and how many hours that would take - it's daunting.

I didn't want a reward. I wanted to play with my friends and enjoy the game. If there was a bot that could warp me there that didn't suck, I'd have used it. If there was a $10 fee I could pay to warp me there, I'd use it. It wouldn't be for the rewards. It'd be for the entertainment of being able to play with friends.

So anybody who says otherwise is a disingenuous, brainwashed douchebag who is so self-unaware that they can't realize the reality and depth of their psychological dependence on the grindiness of the game. These are the same people who are so bad at real life that the escape into games where the time they spend on them makes them better than other folks, because in the real-world, they simply can't compete with the efficiencies of a balanced, well-adjusted person.

If you don't get it, do us all a favor - shut the fuck up and don't presume to speak for things that you admittedly don't understand.

If that doesn't work, you can stay mad - I don't think bots are going anywhere anytime soon. gl;hf.

Boy you are full of ad hominem's. Does it hurt your feelings that I think you should get banned that badly? Take a chill pill and wind down some.

[Deleted]

That is just how you choose to look at it really.

one person will travel and enjoy the journey while traveling to the destination, the other one just wants to get to the destination as fast as possible and enjoy the destination.
After all, all journeys start to reach that destination, isn't it?

So you enjoy the journey itself.... that is cool but why are the people who set out for the same goal, but just getting there asap, with the least effort possible, lazy and self-entitled?
If you look at it from the goal's point of view, they are the smarter and more efficient players. At least, this is how I look at it.
Players are optimizing their time online.... why stop progressing while offline? So they deploy means of keeping going forward, even though they aren't online. I would call it brilliant, again: in regards of the goal.

Given the fact that Blizzard lets them ...... I don't see an issue.

So in random battlegrounds:
-I'm a person that enjoys travel (likes BGs)
-botter is the one that wants to get to destination as fast as possible

What happens then ?

Botter climbs on my back without asking for permission and I'm forced to carry him to that destination, my enjoyment of travelling is completely ruined.

See a problem here ?

[Kissme]

One other thing to think about - because you bring up a lot of good points - is how several other gaming genres have become more social with the prolification of voice comms and broadband. FPS on consoles with friends lists and what have you. Folks are used to being able to play with others on an even level. Unfortunately the example of PvP in WoW can fall pretty short - especially if you're trying to catch up to your buds so that you can play with them. It's where the social aspect of the game conflicts with the RPG aspect.

I won't even attempt to address WoW's pvp balance, because it's obviously terrible. It always has been terrible. They would have been better off going with a paper, rock, scissors style of balancing in my opinion, rather than the attempted homogenized balancing because it's almost impossible to keep classes unique while also keeping them on an even playing field. Add gear disparities on top of that and it gets even worse. Then tack on "unforeseen" benefits of unique trinkets and items (legendary daggers and vial from cata for example) and you end up with a grade A clusterfuck. Of course a BWL geared rogue in vanilla could 1 shot cloth and 3 shot plate, so it's not like it was good back in the old days either.

All that being said, the idea of immediate parity upon entry inherently devalues accomplishment and investment. MMOs should be about the time you invest concretely rewarding you. I don't feel that gear is the way to do that, and I actually think a karma system similar to the old Shadowrun RPG would be an excellent basis for a new MMO. Basically it would follow these guidelines:

1) Gear is cosmetic.
2) Everything you do in the game provides Karma up to a cap.
3) The Karma cap rises each week the game exists (or each month, whatever)
4) Karma can be "spent" on character improvement (whether that's buying new spells, increasing skills and stats, whatever) with inherent diminishing returns (each increase to skill, stat, whatever costs more than the previous point)
5) Any karma earned over the current cap goes into a Gift Pool.
6) Karma in the gift pool can be transferred to other toons (alts, friends, whatever).

This means that friends can "boost" friends new to the game, and time spent on a main toon over the karma cap can be used to increase the power of alts (allowing freedom of play between multiple toons). This helps remove entry barrier for new players, especially with the diminishing returns. Cosmetic gear means loot drops still have a purpose, but beating the bosses/mobs/enemy players already inherenly increases character strength through karma rewards (two birds, one stone). People who only enjoy crafting, gathering, etc will still improve their characters by doing what they enjoy. All in all a solid foundational idea for a MMO game design. Obviously it needs tweaks and balancing, but I feel it could address some inherent flaws of gear grind based games. At that point the designers could focus on making content that's fun, rather than worrying about the improvement said content grants since all content grants equal rewards.

Now that being said, the social dynamic is an important part of the game and part of what makes MMOs fun. But if the activities themselves are fun enough, then you can play despite imbalances between characters by fulfilling certain roles in the activity while you improve. For example, in the original incarnation of Alterac Valley, an undergeared toon could still provide assistance to his team by farming various materials or by capping side objectives. The new plug and play incarnation of AV lacks this variety.

[blackblade]

botting is in my opion for lazy players or people who cant play that game in the first place.
either way its cheating too make up for someone incompetence

I disagree.

I think players bot because of time constraints. I could spend 12 hours in BGs to get a decent set of honor gear so someone will let me into RBG's, or I could bot for 12 hours and get enough honor to get a decent set of honor gear so someone will let me into RBG's.

IMHO, if the system is merely a hurdle for higher levels of play, people will do whatever they can to get out of it.

[ngc2440]

I disagree.

I think players bot because of time constraints. I could spend 12 hours in BGs to get a decent set of honor gear so someone will let me into RBG's, or I could bot for 12 hours and get enough honor to get a decent set of honor gear so someone will let me into RBG's.

IMHO, if the system is merely a hurdle for higher levels of play, people will do whatever they can to get out of it.

Or you could realize that this isn't the gamestyle for you and move on? I am just having trouble understanding not the desire to cheat, but the apologetic nature towards those that cheat. Instead of chastising those that cheat part of this community instead supports said cheaters. There is no denying that certain elements of this game are not super fun to do. But by cheating you cheapen the experience for those that work on it legitimately on the light side and on the worse you make it more difficult for others.

[Kissme]

I don't know if I agree or not. When you say that the problem is not related to grinds, but to gear, it's basically the same, because you grind to get gear (or upgrade your existant one)., so one thing is related to the other.

For example, in PvP, the game was desinged so the ones with better gear win easily, it doesn't matter if you are a good player or not, if you have "green" gear and the other has full epics, he will most certanly win. So gear, imo, is not a player perception of the necessity of grinds, but a real necessity imposed by the game (if you want to have fun, because, let's agree what being killed countless times to pvpers, or wiping all night because your gear is not high enought, is not fun).

And I believe this is the main goal designed for world of warcraft, always have better gear to get, if not, you wouldn't see your gear becoming outdated every major patch.

I'm going to sound crazily nostalgic by saying this, but that's due to the shift in player perception that has occured since Vanilla and TBC. While I agree that being stomped in PvP due to gear disparities is no fun, I also know that better players can overcome gear disparities. A lot of players use gear to replace skill. Now pvp has a ton of balancing issues and the gear reliance of WoW's pvp is a major part of it. But that's almost a different issue. If all gear were automatically equal and capped then class imbalances and synergies become the problem. WoW's pvp is troubled, maybe even broken, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. Let's assume everyone is roughly evenly skilled and geared, but not in BiS gear. Shouldn't they be pvping to beat each other and enjoy that victory? The problem is that many players aren't. They are pvping at that point just to get to BiS gear, and once they reach BiS gear they often stop pvping. That's the problem, because that means if gear were automatically equal they wouldn't be pvping anyway, thus they're doing something for a reward without enjoying the activity. Compare that to the old vanilla world pvp battles at Southshore and Crossroads. There was no reward other than tiny amounts of honor. There were repair costs and rez timers (and dishonorable kills at certain points). Despite this people took part because it was fun.

The same applies to PvE and raiding. Originally you raided to beat the boss. While raiding and beating bosses you just happened to gain gear that allowed you to beat more bosses. Now it seams that you raid to geat gear and while getting gear you just happen to beat bosses. I won't say the end result isn't the same, but because of the perception shift about which part of the equation is the important one, the nature of the way the game is played has changed.

Now I won't say that all players play only for gear now, and that all players back then were totally altruisticly about the journey, that would be naive and blind. I do believe, however, that changes in design and changes in message from Blizzard have had an impact on the player base and it's perception about the nature of their experience in the game.

I would definitely argue your last point though. The main goal designed for World of Warcraft, at least at the beginning, was to provide an epic world and journey for players to experience. I would say a practical side effect of providing greater and greater challenges was the necessity for character improvement, which in a gear based game can only be provided by better and better gear. The player base over the evolution of the game has forgotten about the importance of the experience and become obsessed with the gear and the game designers have given them what they want. The toggle mode hardmodes and retread model of raiding are a perfect example of this. Each boss now provides 3 levels of gear and has snooze mode, easy mode, and medium to hard mode. You no longer beat a boss to look forward to the next new boss. Now you beat a boss so that you can kill bosses you've already killed on a slightly harder numbers requirement (with maybe a mechanic or two) so you can get better gear. The journey is lost when you start jump back to the bottom of the staircase as soon as you hit the landing.

That's a matter for a different topic though.

[Doktor Faustus]

I hardly do raids these days, I am somewhat of a sub - but I have little pressure about playing now.

I am free to do things at my own pace and explore, try new things and have fun.

This has made WoW more refreshed.

I stopped playing after the first tier of Cataclysm, my first major break, and now I am chilled and free to do whatever however.

If you take this (or any other game) too seriously, it will slowly eat away at your soul.

[Deleted]

I thoroughly agree with yjmark. If you don't enjoy playing the game, then don't. There's no good justification for spoiling the game for others by cheating. Cheats belong back in single player games, not in a multiplayer environment.

From what i read he enjoys the game. He enjoy pvping he just dont enjoy farming to have fun later.

PVP is fun, having to grind pvp gear for the 3 time on a new character is not. it is not like we havent done that the past 11 seasons. What is worst now is that you have to farm 2 sets. in TBC you only had to farm honor for starting pvp gear and later arena points for the other gear.

Now instead of loging in an alt to gear up you keep playing your main since you have to upgrade your gear. and there are 2 sets of arena gear to get not 1.

[Kissme]

Or you could realize that this isn't the gamestyle for you and move on? I am just having trouble understanding not the desire to cheat, but the apologetic nature towards those that cheat. Instead of chastising those that cheat part of this community instead supports said cheaters. There is no denying that certain elements of this game are not super fun to do. But by cheating you cheapen the experience for those that work on it legitimately on the light side and on the worse you make it more difficult for others.

The problem is that the gamestyle of the game has been opened to debate by the designers themselves as the game evolved. Things like LFD, LFR, etc have shown that the designers are inherently devaluing the social dynamic of the game (here's something to quick form groups so you don't need guilds/friends), devaluing the idea of time investment (dungeons should be doable over a half hour lunch with time to spare and BGs should all be 30 minutes or less), and in general making design changes which say that spending time in the game isn't important to get goals accomplished. Maybe the player base asked for it and maybe they didn't, honestly, to me it makes no difference. The simple fact is that the game has moved away from the more traditional grind based play, albeit on an inconsistent basis.

I don't support bots, but the fact is that the idea that automating functions in the game is more fun than actually playing the game to accomplish the same goal is a problem. Does it ruin other player's enjoyment of the game - yes. The fact that the journey isn't fun and only the goal seems to be might be viewed as a bigger problem though.