[MW] Will the Ember Primal Diamond meta gem be the better choice for 5.1?

[Totaltotemic]

The Crit difference applies to Ascensions gains as well, so it's irrelevant.

Jab is 9,000 mana, I don't care that that's a bug, it's been that way for a month now and it's not changed on the PTR so it will stay that way. On top of that, there is no possible way your "average Chi" cost would be 20k, because there's a lot of healing associated with that. You're not just paying 20k mana for one Chi, otherwise you're just being ridiculously inefficient.

I acknowledged the fact that mana tea will not be used on cooldown, but neither will Chi Brew, and I said that as well.

Nothing you have said substantially changes that calculation showing that it's too close to even matter in a real raid situation. Saying that it "doesn't compete" is just being disingenuous or plain illogical. You even seem to disregard the point of this discussion, under some delusion that I'm trying to force them to be balanced. The design intent is irrelevant to this discussion, everything I have said and used is based on real in-raid practice and math surrounding how the abilities functions. There is no opinion in that, it's all hard facts.

[Chuupag]

I posted this way back at the end of November in the old sticky.

Well seeing as how you get back 24k mana every 10 seconds with glyphed mana tea w/o Ascension and 28k with it seems like it's 2000 mp5, or better put at most 2000 mp5. Doesn't seem like that hard of a math problem. I'd be more interested in how he came up with 3000 mp5 for PS, b/c it seems to me that it would take 160 seconds to gain 8 chi from PS for a 2 stack of tea, and 24k mana divided by 160 seconds gives you 750 mp5.

I think it has been stated somewhere the the mp5 for PS and Chi brew are fairly identical, so any numbers for PS would be similar to that of Chi Brew.

Yes crit muddies these waters slightly away from Asc, but not to such a huge degree as you are making it out to be considering you have at most 2 chances times your crit to get 1 extra stack of tea.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

I do see that it mathematically makes sense to equivalent Chi Brew to 4x Jab so you can compare manareg, but in practice it probably isnt very representive.
because the guy with acension next to you will not always use 4x jab when you use Chi Brew. Monk is somehow weird, you build up chi and use it as needed... the acension monk will probably just do less healing in that moment when you pull Chi Brew (rather than force jab+jab+uplift just to keep up with you)
so I regard it more as a throughput cooldown. (which has similar to better manareturns than acension)

but thats not only what acension is about. being able to bank 5 chi makes you a more responsive healer, that can bring more heal in the normal case (rather than the chi brew guy only every 1.5min, but then much more, which is usually more usefull ofc)
and you should not undervalue the 45k additional mana. it doesn't sound like a lot. ("thats just 2 surges omg" people say)
but think of it this way: ever tried going completly oom, and then carrying on healing? the problem is, when we are oom, we can't heal as much anymore. and thus indirectly our manareg sinks aswell because we dont generate as much Chi any more! (quite a chunk of manareg comes from manatee, and that will go down a lot when you can only heal with your mp5 mana)

now ignoring the mp5 differences of ChiBrew and Acension, lets assume we have a medium heal intensive heal amount A we can put out, which costs us mana to maintain. and we have a low heal amount B which we can bring when we are totally oom.
If Chi Brew guy goes oom after 6min of healing with A, then the Acension guy can still keep on healing with A for about another whole minute! (15% higher manapool) gaining A-B hps for a minute before being depleted aswell and having to heal oom with B.

just saying: Acension does give you longevity, and 45k more base mana makes a bigger differance than many expect.
(if Chi Brew does give more mp5 indirectly, then of course there will be a point in time where Brew will overtake Acension and take it's advantage)

[Astraios]

The Crit difference applies to Ascensions gains as well, so it's irrelevant.

Jab is 9,000 mana, I don't care that that's a bug, it's been that way for a month now and it's not changed on the PTR so it will stay that way. On top of that, there is no possible way your "average Chi" cost would be 20k, because there's a lot of healing associated with that. You're not just paying 20k mana for one Chi, otherwise you're just being ridiculously inefficient.

I acknowledged the fact that mana tea will not be used on cooldown, but neither will Chi Brew, and I said that as well.

Nothing you have said substantially changes that calculation showing that it's too close to even matter in a real raid situation. Saying that it "doesn't compete" is just being disingenuous or plain illogical. You even seem to disregard the point of this discussion, under some delusion that I'm trying to force them to be balanced. The design intent is irrelevant to this discussion, everything I have said and used is based on real in-raid practice and math surrounding how the abilities functions. There is no opinion in that, it's all hard facts.

Crit does not apply to ascension the same as it applies to chi brew. Ascension is a %boost to your mana tea and a %boost to max mana.
Chi Brew is simply +chi, which equates to +mana tea.
I'm not sure which it favors, but I'm fairly certain it isn't "irrelevant" until mathed.

Ultimately, theres no way in hell you will generate 2 mana tea/10 seconds for an entire fight, so ascension falls FAR short of it's maximum. On the other hand, it is entirely reasonable for someone who has any clue what they're doing on a fight to use chi brew within 15-30s of it's CD.

SPOILERR ALERT: 25 MAN INFO FOLLOWING THE STARS. (In 10s I could consider ascension for more healing sphere spam, but probably still much worse.)

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Honestly, I'm not sure where this came from, or how anyone can even remotely argue about chi brew vs. ascension. At all. It's entirely cut and dry. Chi Brew gives extra throughput that is otherwise non-existant. Reliably getting 3-4 uplifts at 13-16 targets instead of getting 1-2 is a gain which ascension cannot possibly match, period. It has an HPM of 8 chi/90s, or 1/12.5s. Lets extend the CD by 30s to make sure you time it perfectly. Now its 8/120s, or 1/15s. Thats 12000 mana per 15s, or 4000 mp5.
Ascension in it's best cast scenario is 15% boost to 24k/11s (very large luck with crit and constant spamming of abilties gives this time frame in our current gear) 1636 mp5. Now for the mana boost, lets assume its a 6 minute fight. (45000/360)*5 That's 625 mp5.
Chi Brew: 4000 mp5
Ascension: 2261 mp5

Tell me again how it's even close?
Chi Brew is effectively creating extra throughput you cannot otherwise achieve, as well as giving mana back while doing so, far above what ascension ever hopes to.
There is no contest. If you want to play it because you enjoy the extra fifth chi and significantly weakening your burst and longevity, then by all means, have at it. But in min-max'ing there is no contest between the two, in terms of throughput and longevity.

As for real raid situations, I'll admit that I've never tried ascension. Ever. Not once...why? Well, probably because I've not had mana problems since patch 5.1 came out. Ever. In any fight, and I historically run low spirit. So...why would I care about more mana regen when I can get something which gives more throughput since I have no mana problems to start with?


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The "recursive" argument against chi brew. "Well either its mana, or its throughput".
Well...No. It's both. It's giving you throughput which you would be unable to come up with at said point in time, and it's doing it at no mana cost, while giving mana back.

Could you argue that it's either worth 4 chi or worth the mana cost of 4 chi (+ the mana tea)?
I can see where you're coming from. I agree with it, to some extent. Where my view differs, is that chi brew increases the maximum amount of healing you can do in any given fight because it gives access to this extra chi instantly, ascension does not. Even if they gave the same amount of MP5, the ability to burst would make the chi brew raid safer due to the ability to top people quicker/react to unpredicted damage.

Personal Judgement: No contest. Even were they equal (they're not, every fight this tier chi brew can be used more effectively than ascension), the extra utility chi brew brings by being burst far outweighs a little more "blanket" healing that ascension would be giving.

[Yorgl]

Ascension, even if it modifies combat regen, is still the absolute worst for mana regen

Actually that wouldn't be true if the extra mana affected the base regen (not the one with the Tea). (But it's not, weird)
See below.

I can confirm that the formula is correct.

With very simple tests to be fair. Got my character naked (filthy panda), and the combatregen displays 6,108 mp5, since I have 192 baseline spirit it gives me 216 mp5 out of combat and with the mistweaver passive it will provide 108 mp5 in combat. Therefore the 6,000 mp5 can be explained by the expression: "Total Mana*0.02".

As for the mp5 value of spirit, if you divide the increased mana regen. value by your spirit you should obtain the value presented. In my case 12,891/11,421 = 1.1287 mp5 per point of spirit.

You mentioned Ascension in your post and I don't know what you found (although I am interested) but I just feel the need to mention that Ascension does not modify your combatregen. Your total mana will remain 300k for the formula. This can easily be viewed in game.

Thanks so much again. I obviously did something wrong when I did my napkin math, even if it's basic. >_<'
A french poster on my website found exactly the same result as you.

It's rather odd that Asc doesn't modify the base regen through mana increase. I would be interested to see how this goes for the meta (which could be tried with an old -therefore cheap- +2% max mana on a helmet without spirit), and with gnomes.

To answer your question, here's what I found out about this :

• Asc : Assuming one tea/15 sec and given that we gain 45k mana with this talent, drinking the tea gives 45k*0.08=3600MP. Therefor 3600*4=14.4k regen/min. IF Asc gave more regen (but it's not the case unfortunately, it seems), we would have an extra 45k*0.02=900mp5 ie 10800MP/min. This WOULD make a total 25.2k/min
• PS : 4 chi => 1 Tea so we gain the equivalent of a tea (which is 300k*0.08=24k), with this talent, every 80 sec. This gives 18kMP/min , plus the output gained.

However Ascension doesn't seem to provied regen through total MP so PS still wins (or Chi Brew, even with a little less average efficiency).


About Gnomes (btw, did you see the gnome in the SC2 cinematic ? ^^) , if we assume this actually gives regen (needs to be verified !!).
+5% total mana makes them having 300k*1.05=315k total mana. Regen gained through base mana : 15k*0.02=300mp5 (ie 3600MP/min). Regen through mana tea (considering 4 Tea/min) : 15k*0.08*4=4800MP/min. Total =8400MP/min
If you take the +3% spirit for humans, an average monk in HM have about 13k spirit so 13k*0.03=390 extra spirit ie 390*0,56435=221mp5 in combat ie 2652MP/Min
(And human obviously > Pandaren as the food bonus is, at best +300 Spi)

Even if only considering mana tea, Gnome is surprisingly the best race. (Well, the human trinket is often usefull in HC though, e.g the arrows on SK.)


Feel free to correct me if I did something stupid in my calculations (happens more often that I'd like...) and sorry for the english mistakes.

[Totaltotemic]

Thats 12000 mana per 15s, or 4000 mp5.
The "recursive" argument against chi brew. "Well either its mana, or its throughput".
Well...No. It's both. It's giving you throughput which you would be unable to come up with at said point in time, and it's doing it at no mana cost, while giving mana back.

You do not understand what the word "recursive" means. It means that you are stuck in a loop that is not ending where it should be to give you the proper result.

Chi Brew cannot possibly be worth 12,000 mana per chi, because I could spend 9,000 mana per Chi to get that. How in any way does 4 Chi equate to 48,000 mana when I can get 4 Chi for 36,000 mana? You're counting the Mana Tea returns in, when it makes absolutely no sense to do so. It taints your entire calculation and throws everything off, and I thought I very clearly explained this, but you just seem to not know what the word "recursive" means. Hint: it has nothing to do with whether Chi Brew is mana or throughput, it has to do with going too far in the Mana/Chi loop.

It's close because your math is WRONG, not by some magical other way that it works.

[Chuupag]

Chi Brew gives extra throughput that is otherwise non-existant. Reliably getting 3-4 uplifts at 13-16 targets instead of getting 1-2 is a gain which ascension cannot possibly match, period.

I can get 3 uplifts in 4 gcds whenever I want with as little as 5 seconds planning with Asc. I have yet to find that I needed a 4th in 5 gcds or else we die. I run 10s and am still running normals yes. But 3 uplifts in 4 gcds whenever I want I feel is far more powerful burst than "3-4 uplifts" every minute and a half.

It has an HPM of 8 chi/90s, or 1/12.5s. Lets extend the CD by 30s to make sure you time it perfectly. Now its 8/120s, or 1/15s. Thats 12000 mana per 15s, or 4000 mp5.
Ascension in it's best cast scenario is 15% boost to 24k/11s (very large luck with crit and constant spamming of abilties gives this time frame in our current gear) 1636 mp5. Now for the mana boost, lets assume its a 6 minute fight. (45000/360)*5 That's 625 mp5.
Chi Brew: 4000 mp5
Ascension: 2261 mp5

How are you getting 8 chi per 90 seconds when chi brew gives you 4 chi per 90. You can either count it as chi, or as mana saved, not both. You are basically counting it twice which is inflating your numbers.

[Luqt]

Actually that wouldn't be true if the extra mana affected the base regen (not the one with the Tea). (But it's not, weird)
See below.

Thanks so much again. I obviously did something wrong when I did my napkin math, even if it's basic. >_<'
A french poster on my website found exactly the same result as you.

Omelette du fromage!

On a more serious note, the gnome racial Expansive Mind increases your mana pool by 5%, but it has the same effect as Ascension so it doesn't modify combat regen. The thing is, if it did happen to modify your combatregen formula then it would also be reflected in higher mana costs on your spells so it would probably even out to the passive 6,000 mp5.

You do not understand what the word "recursive" means. It means that you are stuck in a loop that is not ending where it should be to give you the proper result.

Chi Brew cannot possibly be worth 12,000 mana per chi, because I could spend 9,000 mana per Chi to get that. How in any way does 4 Chi equate to 48,000 mana when I can get 4 Chi for 36,000 mana? You're counting the Mana Tea returns in, when it makes absolutely no sense to do so. It taints your entire calculation and throws everything off, and I thought I very clearly explained this, but you just seem to not know what the word "recursive" means. Hint: it has nothing to do with whether Chi Brew is mana or throughput, it has to do with going too far in the Mana/Chi loop.

It's close because your math is WRONG, not by some magical other way that it works.

First and foremost, please refrain from that aggressive manner of speech, this is simply a discussion which is seeming to go the wrong way after all points have been given. Nobody is trying to force anyone to do anything here.

Secondly, I perfectly understand your point of view on why chi brew's mp5 value shouldn't be exactly what it is, because I've considered this before. However, I don't think you have fully understood our point of view and I shall try to make it clear once more.

You can get 4 chi for 36,000 mana, and you can get 14400 mana from mana tea assuming 20% crit. If you use chi brew, you will net the same mana. Why wouldn't the mana tea return be included? That is plain illogical, one of the perks of chi brew is precisely the mana tea gains after consuming the chi! If anything, the questionable mp5 value of chi brew comes from the supposed "saved mana for not generating those 4 chi", the mana tea returns have no reason not to be included.

There's another misconception in this thread and that is the mana value of free chi generated. It seems like for these calculations, the only possible chi generator is jab. What? If you're using ReM on CD, that's 19,500 mana every 8 sec, and in the same order using expel harm will net 1 chi every 15 sec for 7,500 mana. For a very simple example, lets assume in a 10 sec cycle generating chi and dumping it on uplift, that you use 1 ReM, 1 EH and 4 jabs. The average mana value of chi generated in this example is 10,500. Slightly higher than 9,000 mana, and this is excluding the fact that jab should cost 11,700 mana.

The real question behind the mp5 value of chi brew is whether it truly replaces 4 chi you would've otherwise had to generate, or is it just some extra chi for additional throughput that you wouldn't have generated if you had Ascension.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Why wouldn't the mana tea return be included? That is plain illogical, one of the perks of chi brew is precisely the mana tea gains after consuming the chi! If anything, the questionable mp5 value of chi brew comes from the supposed "saved mana for not generating those 4 chi", the mana tea returns have no reason not to be included.

There's another misconception in this thread and that is the mana value of free chi generated. It seems like for these calculations, the only possible chi generator is jab. What? If you're using ReM on CD, that's 19,500 mana every 8 sec, and in the same order using expel harm will net 1 chi every 15 sec for 7,500 mana.

As far as I understand, the reason for not counting in the Manatee stacks, is that that is the same for both, so you can't count it towards the Chi Brew.
(the acension guy looses the mana from 4x jab, and 4GCDs compared to the Chi Brew guy, from that point on they are even again. Both can spend 4 Chi for the mana return, so you can't credit that to the Chi Brew in this comparison)
And the reason you count the manacost of 4 Jabs and not ReM or EH, is because both use those spells on CD anway, the Acension guy will have to use Jab to catch up on Chi

[Yorgl]

Omelette du fromage!

On a more serious note, the gnome racial Expansive Mind increases your mana pool by 5%, but it has the same effect as Ascension so it doesn't modify combat regen. The thing is, if it did happen to modify your combatregen formula then it would also be reflected in higher mana costs on your spells so it would probably even out to the passive 6,000 mp5.

Lol, seems you are fluent. (Let me guess, you know "Ouh la la" and "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi", right ? )

For the gnomes, if you are correct about the fact that it doesn't increase base regen (was that a statement or an assumption ? And what about the meta ? -I intend to find out this evening if i can anyway), it still increases mana tea efficiency and if I didn't make a mistake (i don't think on this one), it still make those little buddies the best race to heal.

[Luqt]

As far as I understand, the reason for not counting in the Manatee stacks, is that that is the same for both, so you can't count it towards the Chi Brew.
(the acension guy looses the mana from 4x jab, and 4GCDs compared to the Chi Brew guy, from that point on they are even again. Both can spend 4 Chi for the mana return, so you can't credit that to the Chi Brew in this comparison)
And the reason you count the manacost of 4 Jabs and not ReM or EH, is because both use those spells on CD anway, the Acension guy will have to use Jab to catch up on Chi

The mana tea stacks are taken into account for both calculations of mp5 values, whether you're the 'Ascension guy' or the 'Chi Brew guy' the mana tea stacks affect mana regen on both and should thus be added.

This is exactly where I wanted to bring the discussion and I'm glad you mentioned it. Would the 'Ascension guy' really use jab to catch up on chi to have identical throughput to the 'Chi Brew guy' (assuming same healing still needs to be done which is most likely not true since there are other healers in your group)? There are 2 ways of viewing chi brew, as a throughput cooldown (with slight mana returns on mana tea) or a mana cooldown, but it can't be both simultaneously and it depends on how it is used. If it is used for additional chi dump on say uplifts which you wouldn't have generated with Ascension, then it is an effective throughput cooldown; if it is used to replace chi you would've generated using Ascension then it can be considered more of a mana cooldown.

A couple of comments ago I said that in terms of mp5, Ascension doesn't compete with chi brew. This still holds true, if you use it to replace chi you would've needed to generate with Ascension. If chi brew is used as an immediate chi dump or throughput cooldown that you possibly wouldn't have generated with Ascension, then the only mp5 gain of using chi brew are the 14400 mana of mana tea with 20% crit over 90 seconds.

Lol, seems you are fluent. (Let me guess, you know "Ouh la la" and "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi", right ? )

For the gnomes, if you are correct about the fact that it doesn't increase base regen (was that a statement or an assumption ? And what about the meta ? -I intend to find out this evening if i can anyway), it still increases mana tea efficiency and if I didn't make a mistake (i don't think on this one), it still make those little buddies the best race to heal.

Sorry I forgot to give evidence for this. Take this cute gnome priest: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uiray/advanced (only one I could find sorry >.<)

If you notice, her mana regen is 19901, 13901 mp5 is provided by her 12136 spirit. According to the formula, if you subtract those values you will end up with 6,000 mp5, which is the 2% base mana regen. I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty confident the same applies for the Ember Primal Diamond meta gem, in fact if you check this monk she also has 6,000 base mana mp5 with an Ember meta gem: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dfern/advanced.

Although, I wouldn't say gnomes are the best race to heal since trolls and orcs have a decent throughput racial CD and pandas have the static double food buff which can serve for both mp5 and throughput. But gnome is definitely the best race for mp5 as you stated.

[Totaltotemic]

You can get 4 chi for 36,000 mana, and you can get 14400 mana from mana tea assuming 20% crit. If you use chi brew, you will net the same mana. Why wouldn't the mana tea return be included? That is plain illogical, one of the perks of chi brew is precisely the mana tea gains after consuming the chi! If anything, the questionable mp5 value of chi brew comes from the supposed "saved mana for not generating those 4 chi", the mana tea returns have no reason not to be included.

I can say that it is wrong because there is no subjectivity here, there is a right answer and there is a wrong answer in numbers, opinion has nothing to do with it. If you said that 2+2=5 you would be wrong, no question about it.

That said, let's define some terms here. Something is "worth" an amount of something else if I can give up that amount to get what I want. In this way, I can spend 9,000 mana to get 1 Chi, therefore 1 Chi is worth 9,000 mana. We stop the "worth" calculation here because the difference between getting one Chi for free and paying mana to get it is 9,000 mana, as they will both give Mana Tea returns so that part is meaningless in the difference. I will say this again to be clear, whether I press Jab to get Chi or get it for free, the difference in cost is ONLY the cost of Jab (9k mana, 1 GCD), no Mana Tea involved.

Now that we have that cost, let's define two cases of Chi Brew, one in which the player would have used Jab 4 times to get the Chi, and one in which the player would not have used Jab 4 times for the Chi and the Chi Brew is merely a bonus. We will not be talking about Ascension here, as this is solely relevant to how much mana Chi Brew is "worth." Crit chance will be calculated at 20% chance.

Player would have used Jab 4 times to get Chi anyways:
Total mana spent without Chi Brew: 36,000
Total Chi gained: 4
GCDs spent: 4
Mana Tea returns: 14,400
Total net mana change: 21,600

Total mana spent with Chi Brew: 0
Total Chi gained: 4
GCDs spent: 0
Mana Tea returns: 14,400
Total net mana change: -14,400

What we can see here is that, if you use Chi Brew in place of 4 Jabs, you come up 36,000 mana (including Mana Tea returns, which incidentally was the same whether or not I added in Crit) extra and 4 GCDs. There is no extra throughput (as we would have had 4 Chi anyways) except for the fewer GCDs spent.

Player uses Chi Brew when they wouldn't even have used Jab:

Total mana spent without Chi Brew: 0
Total Chi gained: 0
GCDs spent: 0
Mana Tea returns: 0
Total net mana change: 0

Total mana spent with Chi Brew: 0
Total Chi gained: 4
GCDs spent: 0
Mana Tea returns: 14,400
Total net mana change: -14,400

Here, the player comes up with 14,400 extra mana and 4 extra Chi. Please note that these 4 Chi are not "worth" anything in terms of mana because we would not have otherwise spent said mana for them, so they are simply worth 4 Chi. This is a throughput increase with a slight mana regeneration on the side.

With that very clearly spelled out, we can either see that Chi Brew gives 36,000 mana worth of resources and does it in a timely manner, or that it gives 14,400 mana and 4 Chi worth of throughput. At no point in here does Chi Brew give 48,000 mana, ever.

Now let's dive into Ascension and we'll see why we count its mana tea returns, but not Chi Brew's.

Player would have used Jab 4 times to get Chi anyways: (Ascension edition)
Total mana spent without Chi Brew: 36,000
Total Chi gained: 4
GCDs spent: 4
Mana Tea returns: 16,560
Total net mana change: 19440
Total difference from no Chi brew/no Ascension: -2,160 mana

Total mana spent with Chi Brew: 0
Total Chi gained: 0 (oops, we don't have Chi Brew)
GCDs spent: 0
Mana Tea returns: 0
Total net mana change: 0
Total difference from Chi Brew/no Ascension: -14,400 mana, 4 Chi

Well, would you look at that? Ascension has absolutely no effect on the cost of an "extra Chi" Brew. The long and short of it is that Chi Brew gives 4 Chi at no cost, and Ascension gives 540 (450 + 20% crit) mana per Chi spent at no cost. But regardless of Ascension, please please please please stop saying that Chi Brew gives 48,000 mana, there is no situation in which that happens. It either gives 4 Chi (throughput) and 14,400 mana, or it gives 36,000 mana. It does not give both.

[Dreyo]

As far as regen, Chi Brew gives you 1+CC Tea. Period. That's it. No more, no less. And so it's 12k*(1+CC) mana, per use.

Mana not spent is not the same thing as mana gained. Regen is regen, not AFKing. The argument that because it takes four Jabs to get four Chi, therefore four Chi is the same as four Jabs worth of mana is simply wrong. Free casts are not regen, they are free casts. There's a difference. Regen you can use for things that actually take mana for, while free casts can be used only for the free cast.

Chi Brew is also a throughput cooldown, unrelated to its properties as a mana regen source. And it's very strong in that regard, when its cooldown lines up nicely. But throughput cooldowns are also not regen.

[Luqt]

That's a very well structured response Total, well done

Your definition of free chi is still not correct / incomplete but then again it is not as easy to simulate taking into account ReM and EH which slightly alters the value of the average free chi. Other than that, I agree with your conclusion that "It either gives 4 Chi (throughput) and 14,400 mana, or it gives 36,000 (not this value but close) mana. It does not give both". Spot on. I will alter the mp5 values of the T45 talents to reflect this.

[apepi]

Eh I already use ember meta already....But I am pvp and I can get 20 stacks of mana before the rbg starts so.....

[Totaltotemic]

That's a very well structured response Total, well done

Your definition of free chi is still not correct / incomplete but then again it is not as easy to simulate taking into account ReM and EH which slightly alters the value of the average free chi. Other than that, I agree with your conclusion that "It either gives 4 Chi (throughput) and 14,400 mana, or it gives 36,000 (not this value but close) mana. It does not give both". Spot on. I will alter the mp5 values of the T45 talents to reflect this.

Yes, obviously ReM and EH come into account and muck up the calculations a bit, but I'll respond to that the same way I did in the other thread: If we're using ReM and EH on CD anyways because of the fact that their (Healing + Chi - Mana cost) formula returns a much more efficient number than a non-cooldown spell, then I would consider that method of Chi generation to be maxed out. You can't just decide to press ReM or EH more often because of their cooldowns, so we kind of have to resort to the best spammable alternative. As a side note, I'm not here for one side to be right and the other to be wrong, I'm just trying to make sure that we're all on the same page as to how it works in-game, since there is only one way that it does work.

@Dreyo, I'm not sure what "CC" is in that context, but I did specifically outline the two cases. If you would not have used Jab to get that Chi anyways, then the 4 Chi is not worth 36,000 mana because you weren't going to spend that much for it, it's simply worth 4 Chi at that point. It's either regen from being 36,000 mana worth of Chi, or it's 4 Chi of throughput that happens to give back 14kish mana. You can't combine the two, it's either throughput with a little regen or it's regen with a little throughput (not having to spend 4 GCDs), it's never a lot of throughput and a lot of regen.

[Durmindo]

With Ember Primal Diamond and Ascension, if you use Mana Tea at CD (every 10 second) you'll get back +432 mana more per minute vs. Revitalizing Primal Diamond.
Also, you'll get more mana during priest's Hymn of Hope.

Btw, increase critical effect from RPD is ok, but with EPD you get more crit and spellpower.
I think i will go for EPD :P

I'm with this guy. What you going to do with 0 mana when you can cast more spells

[Dreyo]

@Dreyo, I'm not sure what "CC" is in that context

Critical Chance. Been reading too many D3 guides, I suppose.

And no, it's not 36k worth of mana, it's 4 Chi worth of free healing, and 1+CritChance stacks of Mana Tea. Free throughput is not the same as mana, is my point. You're treating free 4 Chi like negative mana cost, but it's not the same, and doesn't behave the same way. I'm not sure how exactly to articulate the difference I'm getting after, but the baseline premise I think is wrong, at least from the perspective of mana regen. Mana you didn't have to spend is not the same as mana gained. I'm not sure I can prove it, but I stand by it.

[Totaltotemic]

Mana you didn't have to spend is not the same as mana gained.

It is if you were going to spend that mana anyways.

It isn't if you weren't going to spend that mana.

Two cases, two outcomes, separate entities. You're talking solely about the latter, in which case you are correct, it is 4 Chi worth of free healing and however much Mana Tea you get from that. This is a separate situation from the former, which is where the "36,000" comes from. It's either 4 Chi and a little bit of mana tea from it, or it's 36,000 mana you were going to spend but didn't have to. There is no "12k per Chi" number, it doesn't exist.

[Astraios]

You do not understand what the word "recursive" means. It means that you are stuck in a loop that is not ending where it should be to give you the proper result.

Chi Brew cannot possibly be worth 12,000 mana per chi, because I could spend 9,000 mana per Chi to get that. How in any way does 4 Chi equate to 48,000 mana when I can get 4 Chi for 36,000 mana? You're counting the Mana Tea returns in, when it makes absolutely no sense to do so. It taints your entire calculation and throws everything off, and I thought I very clearly explained this, but you just seem to not know what the word "recursive" means. Hint: it has nothing to do with whether Chi Brew is mana or throughput, it has to do with going too far in the Mana/Chi loop.

It's close because your math is WRONG, not by some magical other way that it works.

I'll agree that chi brew is worth 36k mana if used at any time on demand, I was wrong. I wouldn't call that "not knowing what recursive means", but alright. Anywho, chi brew can be used during tft more effectively than the others, increasing it's maximum value in terms of HPM, which is where the mana we spend matters (HPM terms.)