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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahlah View Post
    Um, everyone should be going for their personal BIS set ...sigh, /facepalm
    They should, but if you have half the raid in bis gear and half the raid in lfr gear it sucx.

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Let's disregard BiS for a second. It is much, much better itemized for a tank. Not going off of your bis= items not going to who would benefit most. And replacing them quickly. Because players get over the newness of items quickly. They want that next upgrade. ANd him throwing a fit over this is Pug behavior. He has his characters on his sig, and anyone can find out who this tank is, and he obviously doesn't care about trashing him.
    I think the person who gets biggest upgrade out of the item benefits the most from it. Regardless there should be a dialog about who gets items from the raid, not random rolling. That's just stupid.

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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Housemdoctor View Post
    Give him caster's dagger or agility fist weapon then. He deserve's it before people who actualy need stats from it just because it has higher weapon damage...

    Upgrade what you have, you'll increase your weapon damage without hurting tank's stats.
    One of the points made was that despite the tank being a derp, when he actually got it the healers "aren't having a problem keeping him up." If the healers are keeping the tank up without problems and the tank is doing fine then it's usually better to improve the DPS since they're more likely to get kills done faster. The tank didn't need the higher stats, thus it going to the DPS to get things done quicker seems like the best option in my eyes.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Suizid View Post
    Wouldn't say things like that without actually looking into things. Are you aware that prot paladins like to have hit, expertise, haste and mastery? Sounds pretty dps statsish to me.
    not just prot pallies, most tanks go for the soft caps for exp and hit. Both stats are relatively easy to attain in full 463 gear assuming proper gemming, enchanting and reforging. With the assumption that you're bringing a half decent tank into the raid with you, they should already be hit / exp soft capped unless they're choosing not to. My point still stands, if you're handing tanks dps plate gear just for a stam / str boost then yes, the looting system is wrong.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Just because it's the BiS for a spec doesn't mean it's not a bigger upgrade for someone else or for the raid as a whole. I specifically referenced the tank's competence in saying that if he's performing well enough that healers aren't having a problem and if Cahayla performs well as fury then it should probably go to DPS because the tank and healers are doing well enough but it's always possible to kill something faster. The weapon, regardless of it being the tank's BiS for normal gear, simply doesn't make as big of a raid difference compared to a DPS getting the weapon.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 01:05 AM ----------



    The item level in this case is a big thing because it's a weapon and weapon damage comes directly from item level. For a melee DPS, it's pretty damn important.
    I can't see any halfway decent loot council/progression driven guild giving one classes tier BiS away to another class because the item is (presumably) one of several upgrades available. But hey, I got off this ride after the first tier of Cata so maybe that's what guilds are like nowadays.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    The item level in this case is a big thing because it's a weapon and weapon damage comes directly from item level. For a melee DPS, it's pretty damn important.
    No shit but it's not the only thing of importance and yet op acts as if it's the end all of everything, like his stupid reference to enrage timers. Man I remember back in the day when it was tanks < healers < deeps, in that order and having played as the last of that trio I didn't qq ever about stuff like that. Besides, these casual type guilds will be raiding for so long they will have all the gear they need in the next few weeks so for him to leave over one item, BOO HOO go cry in a pillow.

  6. #106
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekked View Post
    not just prot pallies, most tanks go for the soft caps for exp and hit. Both stats are relatively easy to attain in full 463 gear assuming proper gemming, enchanting and reforging. With the assumption that you're bringing a half decent tank into the raid with you, they should already be hit / exp soft capped unless they're choosing not to. My point still stands, if you're handing tanks dps plate gear just for a stam / str boost then yes, the looting system is wrong.
    So you totally forgot to read that haste and mastery part.

  7. #107
    a) commenting at this forum which is all about a computer game and saying "its just pixels" is moot, if we are here...then we all care about those pixels...

    b) tanks became over time a very spoiled and arrogant class, everything should start and end with them in thier minds..ppl rolling as tanks just to get that extra rewards and attention from thier guild and they are very often most favoured by the GMs and officers.

    if you ask me, there is no real justification for raiding guilds now days unless its first and foremost a group of real friends that decides to raid for fun
    its been years since blizz decided that the gateway for raiding is joining a raiding guild and that was the point when everything went to hell..
    ..after 8 years i can say that every group of players with a common interest of raiding becomes very quickly corrupted,

    the only true justice you can find with raiding is LFM.

    quit that guild , you are just a pawn , a means to an end, nothing more...they dont care about you, they care about themselfs (GMs and officers) and the one who does the tanking so they can both get new loot, they dont realy care if you win somthing or not....in thier minds, do the dailys and buy 489 gear and that would be enough..the raid loot is for them and thier close interest friends.

    go do LFM..thank god for that tool. no need to sell your soul anymore .

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenegade42 View Post
    I can't see any halfway decent loot council/progression driven guild giving one classes tier BiS away to another class because the item is (presumably) one of several upgrades available. But hey, I got off this ride after the first tier of Cata so maybe that's what guilds are like nowadays.
    Some people shoot for personal BiS, often at the expense of others. In the grand scheme of things though, I wouldn't take my BiS as a tank if it was a bigger upgrade for someone else who would put it to equally good (if not better) use, and I can imagine several guilds thinking that way too. Not all of them of course since I know many would go "That's your BiS? It's yours, period, no one else gets it not even the guy in blue dungeon gear."
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2012-11-28 at 08:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  9. #109
    Deleted
    What would you do with this weapon when the sha touched sword drops? Vendor it. What would the tank do? Keep it, because its bis. I passed that weapon to our prot pally and i still use my lfr elegon 1h axe.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahlah View Post
    No shit but it's not the only thing of importance and yet op acts as if it's the end all of everything, like his stupid reference to enrage timers. Man I remember back in the day when it was tanks < healers < deeps, in that order and having played as the last of that trio I didn't qq ever about stuff like that. Besides, these casual type guilds will be raiding for so long they will have all the gear they need in the next few weeks so for him to leave over one item, BOO HOO go cry in a pillow.
    I'm not too fond of the OP's attitude either actually, but I feel that when the tanks and healers aren't having problems performing then giving some gear to the DPS will tend to be more beneficial overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  11. #111
    ok, prot pally here,

    first off, yes you are being a bit childish, however, we all are at sometime, perhaps indeed it was a better upgrade, i for one got the scimitar from a coin, which made me happy and my OT pissed off XD.
    the best enchant for Prot pala's right now is windsong, this because our itemization is totally skewed compared to wrath or cata, its like this
    Hit 7.5% exp 15% ( yes FULL 15) Haste->mastery->parry->dodge->crit. since the weapon has hit and mastery and a socket its incredibly useful.
    also, the sha touched weapon normal version is for some reason, 40 hit and mastery better, on the same Ilvl, so wait till you get that.
    if you're already beating enrage timers, albeit only just, then pure gear is no longer a problem, the last boss that will give you enrage issues on normal should be garalon/wind lord mel'jarak.

    so yes, you may have had better use of it, since just about all prot pala gear has hit on it, and few pieces expertise, so that would make elegion better itemized, but still less in overall stats.

    unless you think you will never get screwed over on loot in another guild, your better off discussing with the GM and the officers to reserve Kilrak for you and youll be much better off.

    good luck

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Suizid View Post
    So you totally forgot to read that haste and mastery part.
    I did, lets just agree to disagree

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    With the tank it was only a 7 ilvl improvement. With Cahayla's warrior it was a full 13. Best in slot doesn't mean it's not a better upgrade for someone else, especially when you consider the raid's benefit as a whole.
    as I understand they BOTH had the 489 Elegon Axe... was I mistaken? you can go back and check.

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  14. #114
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    The amber shaper sword is probably the best tanking weapon on game. As a fury warrior you're supposed to go for the elegon axe because expertise is such a strong stat.

    So, to sum up, you're both lootwhoring.

  15. #115
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    I guess the argument really shouldn't be made on who it's a better upgrade for. It's good for both players and there isn't a point system we could allocate that would declare one more deserving than the other.

    That said, we're only hearing one side of the story which we can either take as complete truth or take it as it being exaggerate to misrepresent those unable to defend themselves in this thread. Either way, the only truth any of us have to go on is that it's an upgrade for both players. No one here knows if the majority of their raid wipes comes from tank deaths, enrage timers, or lack of understanding mechanics, so we can't pinpoint how the weapon would have helped the raid overall.

    This thread is becoming nothing more than the DPS group vs. the Tanking group, when in actuality no tank has ever cleared progression content without a raid full of dps, and no dps has ever cleared progression content without at least one tank, so devaluing either role and making generalization of which role is arrogant and which isn't is not solving the OP's issue.

    The heart of this comes down to how your raid handles gear. They do it based on rolling for the gear, as it seems they want little to do in having to decide in which direction gear should be prioritized or about learning more than just their class. In the system set up, and the system you knew you were involved in before hand, both of you had equal and legitimate rights to the weapon and he happened to have won it. So the real question comes down to whether or not you value your team enough to stick with them and perhaps attempt to change the culture of their loot system or do you feel so disinterested in remaining with them that its best to just move on? Staying and doing nothing is not going to work, so you need to approach them on the basis of loot distribution needing to be whats best for the raid and remove your own wants out of the equation. No raid leader wants to listen to one player's rant about losing a piece of gear, but if they are interested at all in raiding, they will be open to hearing ideas on progressing your guild through content faster. If they refuse to hear ideas to promote all 10 raid members clearing content quicker, then find a new guild as the one you're in now doesn't align itself with your goals.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by jstns View Post
    What would you do with this weapon when the sha touched sword drops? Vendor it. What would the tank do? Keep it, because its bis. I passed that weapon to our prot pally and i still use my lfr elegon 1h axe.
    bet you also thought hunters should get the polearm STAT STICK over ferals too huh?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaoshi View Post
    ok, prot pally here,

    first off, yes you are being a bit childish, however, we all are at sometime, perhaps indeed it was a better upgrade, i for one got the scimitar from a coin, which made me happy and my OT pissed off XD.
    the best enchant for Prot pala's right now is windsong, this because our itemization is totally skewed compared to wrath or cata, its like this
    Hit 7.5% exp 15% ( yes FULL 15) Haste->mastery->parry->dodge->crit. since the weapon has hit and mastery and a socket its incredibly useful.
    also, the sha touched weapon normal version is for some reason, 40 hit and mastery better, on the same Ilvl, so wait till you get that.
    if you're already beating enrage timers, albeit only just, then pure gear is no longer a problem, the last boss that will give you enrage issues on normal should be garalon/wind lord mel'jarak.

    so yes, you may have had better use of it, since just about all prot pala gear has hit on it, and few pieces expertise, so that would make elegion better itemized, but still less in overall stats.

    unless you think you will never get screwed over on loot in another guild, your better off discussing with the GM and the officers to reserve Kilrak for you and youll be much better off.

    good luck
    Commenting on this as a bit OT: Haste and mastery are neck-and-neck, at least according to Theck's work at http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/05/dam...ing-follow-up/ which is pretty much the reason we know that expertise to hard cap is valuable as well as what haste's value is. If he can't tell which one is overall empirically better, it's pretty much not possible to.

    Likewise he did a bit about enchants at http://sacredduty.net/2012/11/16/tan...apon-enchants/. The conclusions section is what I'd go by.

    Back on topic a bit:
    As far as weapons go, http://www.wowhead.com/item=86387 is actually quite nice for tanks. Remember how strength is roughly 95% as good as pure parry rating? Yeah, that's about 475 parry from the gem. Considering how Theck showed avoidance is actually about as good as haste and mastery after hit/expertise caps (see above links), I'd wager Kilrak is a contender for BiS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  18. #118
    Deleted
    i totally understand your anger, but not getting loot on the first bosskill is part of the game. we all know that moment when you down a boss for the first time and see THAT item you desperately need, but you don't get it. while that roll system is garbage, a loot council doesn't grant infallibility.

    when i downed the LK for the first time, the agility-axe dropped. huge upgrade for me, since i only had a 10-man (ilvl 251) offhand back then, going with black bruise. well the only other player that wanted it, was a frost-dk (yes agility was somewhat viable for strength classes back then), who already had 2 264 weapons. long story short: DK got the weapon, never showed up again for a raid, i went in a couple of times more but the weapon never dropped again.

    resume: no, don't leave your guild. while it hurts not getting loot or playing with idiot people, you should cherish the raid-environment with a lot of people you like and get along with, cause that's harder to find than any piece of loot nowadays.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Seran View Post
    as I understand they BOTH had the 489 Elegon Axe... was I mistaken? you can go back and check.
    Might as well highlight that part of the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cahayla View Post
    *snip*
    Tonight we downed amber shaper for the first time and the weapon that i need as a fury warrior dropped. I have an axe off elegon and a LFR sword from terrace. I also have 1400 valor to upgrade this weapon ive been waiting for sitting there and spent the whole raid waiting for that one item. When it dropped the tank (who sucks and is really holding our raid back in the first place and who is using a 489 elegon axe already) needed it because it had "more stam" and won and since we are using a roll system for some reason it went to him.
    *snip*
    So yes, you were right in the both had the Elegon axe, but the factor here is the warrior also has an LFR sword, which means a full 13 item level upgrade for that weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
    Noodles and chocolate milk is the breakfast of Champions.
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  20. #120
    Deleted
    You didnt get the point of my post. He has a much better option with the sha touched sword and so do i. So why need loot another teammate would not throw away 1hour later?

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