[MW] What haste cap to aim for after 5.1 changes.

[Hipsterghost]

I get stuck tank healing A LOT....


God forbid our resto shaman/Disc Priest/Holy Pally/1-2 Resto Druids can do that, amirite? *rocks back and forth*

[HamSandwichFace]

I get stuck tank healing A LOT....


God forbid our resto shaman/Disc Priest/Holy Pally/1-2 Resto Druids can do that, amirite? *rocks back and forth*

We aren't that bad on tank healing. I prefer to tank heal on Sha of Fear HC than take a huddle target generally.

[Hipsterghost]

We aren't that bad on tank healing. I prefer to tank heal on Sha of Fear HC than take a huddle target generally.

No just the fact that I'm not uplifting as much as someone who wouldn't, which was the point about the haste.

[Totaltotemic]

It's not even that difficult to check my toon when I have it in my sig. 4/16 atm and likely 6/16 Monday. Was just putting my 2cents in about how it is possible to get to that breakpoint in lower ilvl gear. My logs were also brought up in the other thread, and you can find them in KTAs logs on Jaedenar if you so desire to pick through them to get some actual material to ridicule me with.

You can function at that breakpoint because you're ridiculously overgearing the content you're doing. Generally, the only time it's not possible is if you have a total of less than 12,000 secondary stats (seeing as you need two different stats, making a maximum of 6k from one stat), which we pass around 470 ilvl gear. Saying that going to that breakpoint is possible is a pretty irrelevant statement because it's generally a terrible idea unless you out-gear the content you're doing.

You really don't need to min-max when your gear should easily sail you through the instance.

[Chuupag]

I find your assumption that I 'ridiculously overgear' this content is a very naive and elitist way of thinking. Why would basing the necessary gear level for an encounter be determined by what the top 5% of guilds in the world have done and not the average player? Since there is not a further raid tier available and this is still current content there is no possible way I can 'outgear' this content. I have simply had more weeks of LFR and Sha than other people have had before even starting this raid.

And just because I am not pushing hardcore content does not mean I am not allowed to attempt to play my character to the best of my ability. I find your attitude disgusting and demeaning to the vast majority of the players in this game.

[Deleted]

I find your assumption that I 'ridiculously overgear' this content is a very naive and elitist way of thinking. Why would basing the necessary gear level for an encounter be determined by what the top 5% of guilds in the world have done and not the average player? Since there is not a further raid tier available and this is still current content there is no possible way I can 'outgear' this content. I have simply had more weeks of LFR and Sha than other people have had before even starting this raid.

And just because I am not pushing hardcore content does not mean I am not allowed to attempt to play my character to the best of my ability. I find your attitude disgusting and demeaning to the vast majority of the players in this game.

Because raids are balanced around certain ilvls, that is how you outgear content. If your in full heroic raid gear, you have outgeared the heroic raids currently because they are not balanced for your increased ilvl.

I find your defensive attitude disgusting, if you can't handle being criticized don't post, simple as. Getting defensive because people are stating facts that your gear is way more than the raid is intended for, is not demeaning it is the truth. Nothing to do with pushing for harder content or not, it's just a simple fact.

Eitherway people aren't going to give you the attention your trying to seek, so probably stick to just your guild?

[Chuupag]

Because raids are balanced around certain ilvls, that is how you outgear content. If your in full heroic raid gear, you have outgeared the heroic raids currently because they are not balanced for your increased ilvl.

I find your defensive attitude disgusting, if you can't handle being criticized don't post, simple as. Getting defensive because people are stating facts that your gear is way more than the raid is intended for, is not demeaning it is the truth. Nothing to do with pushing for harder content or not, it's just a simple fact.

Eitherway people aren't going to give you the attention your trying to seek, so probably stick to just your guild?

And you're claiming to know what that ilvl is? Raids are designed with gear check bosses, Elegon is a perfect example in this tier, that they don't intend for you to be able to defeat until after you have farmed up gear from the proceeding bosses for a few weeks. Just b/c it is possible to kill the boss without that gear does not mean that it was intended for that to be possible.

[Astraios]

And you're claiming to know what that ilvl is? Raids are designed with gear check bosses, Elegon is a perfect example in this tier, that they don't intend for you to be able to defeat until after you have farmed up gear from the proceeding bosses for a few weeks. Just b/c it is possible to kill the boss without that gear does not mean that it was intended for that to be possible.

Uh...elegon's hardly a gear check...it's all comp/raid awareness fight.

[Chuupag]

Uh...elegon's hardly a gear check...it's all comp/raid awareness fight.

You are reinforcing my point. For a the top guilds in the world there is basically no such thing as a gear check, b/c it's all raid comp and awareness. You can sit and replace people to get the optimum configuration and you can spend 10, 15, 20 hours or more a week in progression wiping on bosses countless times til it's all clockwork. For a more average guild you don't have all those people to replace, and you don't have that much time. So the only way to down them is wiping a dozen times a week learning the fight over a few weeks and getting better gear until you can down them.

[Totaltotemic]

I'm saying that 480 item level ridiculously outgears MSV normal mode because my Shaman in 465 2-healed every fight with a similarly geared healer and I did just fine. With 480 ilvl you're pushing the ability to solo heal some of the fights, the encounters were clearly not designed around it.

Outgearing doesn't mean that you have gear from future content. If a tier of item levels provides very few or no upgrades, you're overgearing the bosses that drop that item level. Due to the availability of 496 tier pieces from Sha, 496/489 VP gear from vendors, and the free 489 necklace/ring from Golden Lotus/Klaxxi Exalted, it is entirely possible to outgear MSV without ever stepping foot in the instance. The reason why I mention it is that no one in any kind of content that is straining their gear has more of any singular stat than they do Spirit. For the most part, healers never even get 3/4s of a singular stat than what they currently have in Spirit. Healing isn't like DPS, there is a point where your healing ability is simply good enough for the content and min-maxing it to the extreme won't make it any easier. Min/maxing for MSV in 480 gear is really quite irrelevant because even if you're only halfway efficient you should be able to heal with any other healer even if they are in greens. Your increased ability to heal won't make that fight any easier, you're just hurting yourself when you'll be forced to switch back to a reasonable level of Spirit the second you do a boss that requires a lot of healing or simply healing for a long time (like Will of the Emperor).

If you want to do that, it's fine. Unfortunately, a lot of players come to this forum looking for advice and not many of them are in the "min/maxing for content I overgear" category, so it causes a lot of confusion when you start talking about going for 6k haste at 480 item level, because that simply won't work for most players. Of course, it doesn't help when you try to deny the fact that you obviously overgear the content that you're doing.

[Chuupag]

I'm saying that 480 item level ridiculously outgears MSV normal mode because my Shaman in 465 2-healed every fight with a similarly geared healer and I did just fine. With 480 ilvl you're pushing the ability to solo heal some of the fights, the encounters were clearly not designed around it.

Outgearing doesn't mean that you have gear from future content. If a tier of item levels provides very few or no upgrades, you're overgearing the bosses that drop that item level. Due to the availability of 496 tier pieces from Sha, 496/489 VP gear from vendors, and the free 489 necklace/ring from Golden Lotus/Klaxxi Exalted, it is entirely possible to outgear MSV without ever stepping foot in the instance. The reason why I mention it is that no one in any kind of content that is straining their gear has more of any singular stat than they do Spirit. For the most part, healers never even get 3/4s of a singular stat than what they currently have in Spirit. Healing isn't like DPS, there is a point where your healing ability is simply good enough for the content and min-maxing it to the extreme won't make it any easier. Min/maxing for MSV in 480 gear is really quite irrelevant because even if you're only halfway efficient you should be able to heal with any other healer even if they are in greens. Your increased ability to heal won't make that fight any easier, you're just hurting yourself when you'll be forced to switch back to a reasonable level of Spirit the second you do a boss that requires a lot of healing or simply healing for a long time (like Will of the Emperor).

If you want to do that, it's fine. Unfortunately, a lot of players come to this forum looking for advice and not many of them are in the "min/maxing for content I overgear" category, so it causes a lot of confusion when you start talking about going for 6k haste at 480 item level, because that simply won't work for most players. Of course, it doesn't help when you try to deny the fact that you obviously overgear the content that you're doing.

If a boss drops higher ilvl than you have you don't outgear it. Pretty simple concept.

[Totaltotemic]

If a boss drops higher ilvl than you have you don't outgear it. Pretty simple concept.

If you're above what it was balanced at, you outgear it. While we don't know exactly what item level Blizzard expects, I doubt that Normal Stone Guards is balanced around a raid in full 489 loot. That would be kind of silly.

[Hipsterghost]

OK kids we've strayed from the OP.

Anyway...

[Totaltotemic]

OK kids we've strayed from the OP.

Anyway...

No, we're still talking about it. What we're discussing is the issue that what haste cap you want to go for really depends on what kind of gear you have, which naturally evolved the conversation into what haste points are effective for what kind of gear. Just because we're not directly responding to the OP doesn't mean the discussion has to be over.

[Chuupag]

OK kids we've strayed from the OP.

Anyway...

Indeed. I'll have side by side logs from 11 tick and 12 tick tomorrow for some bosses. Since I dropped about 50/50 split between crit and mastery I'm fairly confident the change will be beneficial.

[Hipsterghost]

Yeah I raid Monday, so I'll see what this 6### haste is like. If I don't see anything recognizable im going back to all crit and the 3148 haste

[Shinchib]

I'm not so much thrown off by the goal to get 6### haste because I'm interested in that myself. Getting an extra tick from one of our top heals is quite appealing in a 25 man progression guild environment. However, i do have some concerns.

Sacrificing spirit and/or lots of crit for it is not my ideal way of reforging so perhaps this isn't achievable for me at my current ilvl (I've been 90 for 2 weeks and only sitting at 485 with 1 450 pvp and 3 heroic dungeon pieces; my gear is far from BiS but the sheer ilvl increase from normal/heroic raid bosses easily replaces the blues I was in). My healing experience is quite limited on my mistweaver and coming from a holy paladin that seems to never go OOM with over 10k spirit (that ive started to reforge out of into more throughput) to a monk that's just recently hit 6k spirit, I was OOM for a large portion of fights we were doing and no where near joining our progression kills yet. True, im still learning the spec and i do forget that im considered a melee class now =P Manas been getting easier at 6k but still not around 8k where I would like to float around. I held 100k HPS during a Tsulong pug group I ran with this weekend so that's a success story =) Hopefully I'm ready for healing Heroic Spirit Kings and Elegon because my guild almost has those on farm.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 12:21 PM ----------

Yeah I raid Monday, so I'll see what this 6### haste is like. If I don't see anything recognizable im going back to all crit and the 3148 haste

You may have stated this in a previous post, but can you include info about the raiding environment in you conclusion?
10/25 man? Casual or progression? ilvl? How many healers and what classes/specs?

Edit: also, I hope you're not stuck tank healing. What the heck is the holy pally doing then? Considering a holy shock can instantly crit for 200k + mastery absorb and divine light can easily crit for 250k, how is this not the preferred class over a monk? I'm not that impressed with EvM at all and surge spamming is out of the question.

Even the shaman would still be the better option for tank healing...

[Astraios]

I'm not so much thrown off by the goal to get 6### haste because I'm interested in that myself. Getting an extra tick from one of our top heals is quite appealing in a 25 man progression guild environment. However, i do have some concerns.

Sacrificing spirit and/or lots of crit for it is not my ideal way of reforging so perhaps this isn't achievable for me at my current ilvl (I've been 90 for 2 weeks and only sitting at 485 with 1 450 pvp and 3 heroic dungeon pieces; my gear is far from BiS but the sheer ilvl increase from normal/heroic raid bosses easily replaces the blues I was in). My healing experience is quite limited on my mistweaver and coming from a holy paladin that seems to never go OOM with over 10k spirit (that ive started to reforge out of into more throughput) to a monk that's just recently hit 6k spirit, I was OOM for a large portion of fights we were doing and no where near joining our progression kills yet. True, im still learning the spec and i do forget that im considered a melee class now =P Manas been getting easier at 6k but still not around 8k where I would like to float around. I held 100k HPS during a Tsulong pug group I ran with this weekend so that's a success story =) Hopefully I'm ready for healing Heroic Spirit Kings and Elegon because my guild almost has those on farm.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 12:21 PM ----------


You may have stated this in a previous post, but can you include info about the raiding environment in you conclusion?
10/25 man? Casual or progression? ilvl? How many healers and what classes/specs?

Edit: also, I hope you're not stuck tank healing. What the heck is the holy pally doing then? Considering a holy shock can instantly crit for 200k + mastery absorb and divine light can easily crit for 250k, how is this not the preferred class over a monk? I'm not that impressed with EvM at all and surge spamming is out of the question.

Even the shaman would still be the better option for tank healing...

for 25m H raiding, haste for an extra ReM tick is not worth it over crit for uplift/chi torpedo etc.

The only world it becomes potentially worth it, is if you're operating in a world where you are already stacking 10-11k~+ spirit and using SCK as your chi generator over jab. In such a situation, haste is very strong with SCK and gains value.
But if you're running low spirit and using jab as your generator, then haste is significantly worse than crit. The only reason we get any is to max the duration on ReM.

[Shinchib]

for 25m H raiding, haste for an extra ReM tick is not worth it over crit for uplift/chi torpedo etc.

The only world it becomes potentially worth it, is if you're operating in a world where you are already stacking 10-11k~+ spirit and using SCK as your chi generator over jab. In such a situation, haste is very strong with SCK and gains value.
But if you're running low spirit and using jab as your generator, then haste is significantly worse than crit. The only reason we get any is to max the duration on ReM.

I appreciate your input. Thanks.

[Chuupag]

for 25m H raiding, haste for an extra ReM tick is not worth it over crit for uplift/chi torpedo etc.

The only world it becomes potentially worth it, is if you're operating in a world where you are already stacking 10-11k~+ spirit and using SCK as your chi generator over jab. In such a situation, haste is very strong with SCK and gains value.
But if you're running low spirit and using jab as your generator, then haste is significantly worse than crit. The only reason we get any is to max the duration on ReM.

I think you could agree, however, that if you don't have to sacrifice crit to obtain the haste then it would be a gain, or if you only had to sacrifice X crit, whatever than X number may be. So if you end up with several pieces with the itemization crit/haste, or mastery(or spirit)/haste and reforge the former into crit, then it would be a beneficial gain all around.