Tooth and Claw

[Tiolith]

[Deleted]

I would not bother discussing this with Arielle, she/he/it seems to defend everything blizz does to bears. Any average bear would realize this puts us into an OT position, crap as a bear I'm the lead of the group and I don't see any other reason to be MT with this change if the other tank is just as skilled as I am. It is like symbiosis now it benefits more the other tank than myself.

BS. There's a lot of times on bosses, where I easily squeeze in Tooth and CLAW (not Nail) and I've been doing so even before this buff to Maul. But sure, if you keep insisting on spending all your Rage on SD - even when there's no need for it, then yes, you won't have enough Rage. But that's not really a game design issue, that's a choice you make.

Even while tanking Heroic Gara'jal where keeping up SD is so important, I managed to get in several Tooth and Claw hits.

---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 02:39 PM ----------

If you have nothing better to do, then you're not about to take damage, so tooth and claw will do nothing for you. If you are about to take damage, that rage is better spent on savage defense or frenzied regeneration.

You seem to look at it as either or. Let me use Heroic Gara'jal as an example again. If SI or Barkskin is up or I get a Sac from a Paladin, then I can easily fit in a Maul. You speak as if ALL Rage ALWAYS has to be spend on SD or FR but we do have other CD's as well. And if you have enough Rage for a Tooth and Claw but no charges of SD, why not just pop Barkskin and use Maul?

It's about thinking a bit outside the box here as well imo, don't be so hellbend on having a 100% uptime on SD when it's not really needed.

[Williee]

When thinking about extra dps to push enrage timers on heroic modes, you have to use maul before this buff. Now the damage mitigation it brings is just a bonus along with the damage it gives.

[Bearshield]

Off topic, but what mod are you using for your dot timers? Looks like Classtimer except nicer if that makes sense.

[kaiadam]

From what I can tell in the formula, a tooth and nail proc basically means the next attack deals [your vengeance] less damage.

I have a question for those who've tested it - is this applied before or after other reductions? If it's before, it's kinda useless considering bosses hit for almost a million unmitigated damage now and generally only reduce the next attack by ~1/4 of its damage. If it's after, a single tooth and nail basically negates the next autoattack.

If it works out the second way, then maul is most definitely worth hitting even if you're actively tanking - a sd generally prevents on average 1.5 swings and a FR heals 1.5 swings worth of damage, roughly while T&C prevents 1 swing worth of damage and costs half as much as those two and has the side benefit of not costing SD charges.

[Kujako]

From what I can tell in the formula, a tooth and nail proc basically means the next attack deals [your vengeance] less damage.

I have a question for those who've tested it - is this applied before or after other reductions? If it's before, it's kinda useless considering bosses hit for almost a million unmitigated damage now and generally only reduce the next attack by ~1/4 of its damage. If it's after, a single tooth and nail basically negates the next autoattack.

If it works out the second way, then maul is most definitely worth hitting even if you're actively tanking - a sd generally prevents on average 2 swings and a FR heals 1.5 swings worth of damage, roughly while T&C prevents 1 swing worth of damage and costs half as much as those two and has the side benefit of not costing SD charges.

It only reduces damage on one attack, and only the next auto-attack at that.

[Tiolith]

Off topic, but what mod are you using for your dot timers? Looks like Classtimer except nicer if that makes sense.

NeedToKnow

[kaiadam]

It only reduces damage on one attack, and only the next auto-attack at that.

Maybe I wasn't clear, let me explain further:

Your tooth and claw says "-150k damage on next swing"
Boss swings for 700k damage.
Reduce 25% that for bear form ~525k damage.
Reduce 65% further by armor for ~175k damage.
Tooth and claw activates. You take 25k damage.

vs

Your tooth and claw says "-150k damage on next swing"
Boss swings for 700k damage.
Your tooth and claw activates, damage reduced to 550k.
Reduce 25% that for bear form ~410 damage.
Reduce 65% further by armor. You take ~135k damage


See the difference?

I'm aware it's one attack. If T&C were applied after the other DR things, it's just as good/better than SD and definitely better than frenzied regen for pure melee attacks. If it's applied before, then it's still worthless.

SD math:
Assumptions - 20% base dodge after suppression, 50% dodge with SD, boss swings once every 2 seconds.

Over 6 seconds - you would've taken 2.4 hits, but with SD you take 0.9 hits = 1 SD prevents on average 1.5 hits worth of damage for 60 rage.

[Williee]

Also, when you rage cap while the other tank is tanking, you can help him out and reduce his dmg taken!!!

[Arielle]

I'm aware it's one attack. If T&C were applied after the other DR things, it's just as good/better than SD and definitely better than frenzied regen for pure melee attacks. If it's applied before, then it's still worthless.

It's after. However it only affects one attack, whereas SD affects multiple. So it's still worse than SD. It's always worse than FR as well since FR is 2.5x as powerful.

Assumptions - 20% base dodge after suppression, 50% dodge with SD, boss swings once every 2 seconds.

You're also assuming you have enough Rage for one or the other, but not both. The obvious answer is to to use SD, and then partway through its duration use a T&C.

T&C procs aren't plentiful enough that you can just spam them the entire time. You only have a 50% chance of getting 2 procs (with 20% melee Haste and Hit/Exp capping) in the same 6 seconds with which to spend the same 60 Rage on.

[Bearshield]

NeedToKnow

Awesome, will have to check that one out. Thanks!

[kaiadam]

It's after. However it only affects one attack, whereas SD affects multiple. So it's still worse than SD. It's always worse than FR as well since FR is 2.5x as powerful.

You're also assuming you have enough Rage for one or the other, but not both. The obvious answer is to to use SD, and then partway through its duration use a T&C.

T&C procs aren't plentiful enough that you can just spam them the entire time. You only have a 50% chance of getting 2 procs (with 20% melee Haste and Hit/Exp capping) in the same 6 seconds with which to spend the same 60 Rage on.

Frenzied regen: max(2 x (AttackPower - Agility x 2), Stamina x 2.5)
Tooth and Claw: max((AP - $AGI) * 250 / 100, $STA * 250 / 100) * 0.4)

T&C prevents slightly more than half the damage of frenzied regen (assuming the AP part is being picked, not the stamina, which is basically 100% of the time you're actually tanking anything of worth). Damage prevention is always superior to damage healed, unless you're low and the next ability ignores T&C.

T&C is also mathematically superior to SD. As I showed above, a SD on an average boss will prevent 1.5 swings, a T&C prevents most/all of one while costing half as much. Furthermore, and significantly more importantly, T&C is guaranteed damage mitigation while SD is merely avoidance.

If T&C damage reduction is applied after all other reduction effects, then basically the thing to do when you get a proc is to maul as soon as you can, more or less. Using T&C then SD after you get hit is almost always superior to having them both up at the same time.

[Lyricist]

If the Tooth and Nail proc made the Maul cost no rage, I wouldn't be as concerned.

This option would make maul just a random buff which they're trying to avoid. I would imagine switching the damage reduction to all types rather than just next melee swing would be a good improvement without losing the need to think about it, because you'd still have the rage penalty, but it would be a more valuable loss, particularly in movement fights with AoE, multi-adds, or pulsing DoTs (AKA, this whole tier of raids).

[Arielle]

T&C prevents slightly more than half the damage of frenzied regen

No, no it doesn't. The formulas are identical except T&C has a 0.4 multiplier on it.

Damage prevention is always superior to damage healed, unless you're low and the next ability ignores T&C.

Only so long as it's superior in terms of relative HP. Which isn't the case here.

T&C is also mathematically superior to SD. As I showed above, a SD on an average boss will prevent 1.5 swings, a T&C prevents most/all of one while costing half as much. Furthermore, and significantly more importantly, T&C is guaranteed damage mitigation while SD is merely avoidance.

Except I have no idea where you got that "25% for Bear form" from. At best it's 0.9 * 0.88 = 20.8%. Did my math wrong on the amount of Vengeance needed.

Using T&C then SD after you get hit is almost always superior to having them both up at the same time.

Except that it lasts until you actually take a hit or refresh it. And the value stacks on refreshing.

[kaiadam]

Take a look. it's 250/100*40% = 1. Frenzied regen is just 2, but frenzied regen subtracts 2*agi and T&C subtracts just 1*agi.

Are you saying that the formula on wowhead is wrong? that it's 40% of your current AP instead of 100%?

I know for sure FR heals for double your vengeance.

Except I have no idea where you got that "25% for Bear form" from. At best it's 0.9 * 0.88 = 20.8%

That was just to illustrate before and after DR. I used a vengeance value of roughly 130k indeed for 700k unmit hits, my SD math was: 2.4 hits without SD, 0.9 hits with during the 6 seconds.

Except that it lasts until you actually take a hit or refresh it. And the value stacks on refreshing.

I don't get what you're saying here.

[dennisdkramer]

Frenzied regen: max(2 x (AttackPower - Agility x 2), Stamina x 2.5)
Tooth and Claw: max((AP - $AGI) * 250 / 100, $STA * 250 / 100) * 0.4)

T&C prevents slightly more than half the damage of frenzied regen (assuming the AP part is being picked, not the stamina, which is basically 100% of the time you're actually tanking anything of worth). Damage prevention is always superior to damage healed, unless you're low and the next ability ignores T&C.

T&C is also mathematically superior to SD. As I showed above, a SD on an average boss will prevent 1.5 swings, a T&C prevents most/all of one while costing half as much. Furthermore, and significantly more importantly, T&C is guaranteed damage mitigation while SD is merely avoidance.

If T&C damage reduction is applied after all other reduction effects, then basically the thing to do when you get a proc is to maul as soon as you can, more or less. Using T&C then SD after you get hit is almost always superior to having them both up at the same time.

I think people are finding it hard to believe that T&C is so good because they see SD and FR as our "primary" forms of mitigation and T&C as "secondary" because it was added later.

T&C is going to be pretty situational but I'm still excited to use it. Unfortunately it may mean that we have to pay attention to exactly how much bosses hit for, as some bosses probably won't hit for enough to even justify using it.

[Arielle]

Take a look. it's 250/100*40% = 1. Frenzied regen is just 2, but frenzied regen subtracts 2*agi and T&C subtracts just 1*agi.

To be 100% sure I just went and tested this by soloing the first boss of Gate of the Setting Sun. T&C definitely subtracts 2*Agi.

Are you saying that the formula on wowhead is wrong? that it's 40% of your current AP instead of 100%?

I messed that part up, and didn't realize until I double checked. In any case it's still not possible to get 150k Vengeance from 700k unmit every 2 seconds.

[kaiadam]

Yeah I was using (AP - 1*agi) in my previous calculation, which is what wowhead says. If it's wrong, it's wrong and then T&C is exactly half as much as FR. Still better though, damage prevention and all. I have around 45k ap raid buffed and 20k agi so I assumed 125k vengeance. Anyway, this is quibbling about small things. My bottom line is that T&C is guaranteed damage prevention which is just as much if not more damage/rage than our two other AM abilities, and does damage to boot = worth using every time the thing procs except in weird circumstances (T&C already up, next upcoming ability is not an autoattack and has a chance of killing you, etc.)

[Arielle]

My bottom line is that T&C is guaranteed damage prevention which is just as much if not more damage/rage than our two other AM abilities, and does damage to boot = worth using every time the thing procs except in weird circumstances (T&C already up, next upcoming ability is not an autoattack and has a chance of killing you, etc.)

Re-calcing your method using correct numbers:

Your tooth and claw says "-150k damage on next swing"
Boss swings for 700k damage.
Reduce 10% that for Weakened Blows - 630k.
Reduce 12% that for Thick Hide - 554.4k.
Reduce 65% that for Armor - 194.04

Realistic T&C value at that DTPS: 127576 (~65.7%)
Tooth and claw activates. You take 66464 damage.

0.657 < 1.5.

[Rockylobster]

Does anyone have a working Weakauras for Tooth and Claw that tracks whether I have a proc or not and what the absorb will be if I use it?

Been looking for one but I cant find one and I SUCK at using weakauras for myself :P

Any help would be greatly appreciated, even if its just "That cant be done" then atleast I will know