master poison question

[exjay]

so i started raiding as a lock in mop and read that rogues apply the same 5% spell debuff as our spell cote. i raid with 2 rogues and i normally dont apply the debuff for single target, but what about for aoeing adds and how long does rogues debuff last? i assume the debuff is passive? im just not to familiar with rogue rotation , mechanics so i just want to know when its necessary to apply my own debuff.

[eijin]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=58410 any target you have poisoned. with most raid mobs being immune to crippling/mind numbing, its mostly your deadly posion. so when you hit a target you have a 50% chance of applying it for 12 seconds. 2-3 FoKs and everyone will, on average, have it for 12s, with mut's energy regen you should be able to do a 35 energy costing FoK every 2-3 seconds. you will have no problem keeping it up on everyone.

[Kael]

If your rogue is running mut and AoEing (during these add phases you reference), you won't need to SB/CoE. If they're combat and/or sticking to single target primarily, burn a shard.

As Eijin said, for single target or sustained AoE, the master poisoner buff will be refreshed all the time.

[Deleted]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=58410 any target you have poisoned. with most raid mobs being immune to crippling/mind numbing, its mostly your deadly posion. so when you hit a target you have a 50% chance of applying it for 12 seconds. 2-3 FoKs and everyone will, on average, have it for 12s, with mut's energy regen you should be able to do a 35 energy costing FoK every 2-3 seconds. you will have no problem keeping it up on everyone.

actually most people seem to run with leeching ( as it seems to be able to proc weapon enchants) and leeching will also apply the 5% debuff so it's more than 50%, however i would say it probably depends how long the mobs are gona live whether it's worth that 5%, if using it means they die in one less global, you saved no time as you had to spend a global on casting it, if more than one global saved = worth it.

[eijin]

actually most people seem to run with leeching ( as it seems to be able to proc weapon enchants) and leeching will also apply the 5% debuff so it's more than 50%, however i would say it probably depends how long the mobs are gona live whether it's worth that 5%, if using it means they die in one less global, you saved no time as you had to spend a global on casting it, if more than one global saved = worth it.

Depends on what youre doing, leeching falls behind elusiveness by a ton for most of the hardmode bosses. Leeching can proc R PPM procs, but it doesnt increase their uptime (just like if you keep up recoup it will have a chance of procing it, -anything- can proc it, but its proc chance is dynamic based on how many things that your doing can proc it.)

but any poison apply the 5% debuff. there is no situation where the rogue is AoEing and it would be worth the GCD, as the rogue will have applied it by the time he does.

[Deleted]

Leeching can proc R PPM procs, but it doesnt increase their uptime

sorry how does that make any sence if I have an extra chance to proc a buff how doesn't that result in higher uptime as i will get more procs!?!

RPPM -> chance to proc = (time since last proc X "coefficient") more chances even at lower "time since last proc" just means you have it proccing at lower "times since last proc" as you have more "rolls" of the chance giving a higher uptime as reduced time when no buff is up.

also it's the only one in that tier that will give you a damg increase and if your in 25 there is generally enough aoe healing that glyphd feint is enough without the extra 30% ( which works after the 50% so only reduces total damg from the aoe compared to someone without both by another 15%) if your tanking on a certain boss then yes i would take it but if your tanking your not doing what your normally doing anyway.

[eijin]

Here is bliz's statment on it:

So, there are pros and cons of both of those types of procs. We’re trying a new system for these enchants. This new system, nicknamed Real PPM, aims to give the random nature of procs, the scaling with haste, and the ability for us to balance them assuming a standard proc frequency. Here’s the short version of how you can expect them to function:


•Windsong is 2 Real PPM, and Elemental Force is 10 Real PPM.
•Come patch 5.1, Dancing Steel and Jade Spirit will be 2 Real PPM, River's Song will be 4 Real PPM, and Colossus will be 6 Real PPM
•Regardless of how you’re attacking or healing, slow or fast, with DoTs or direct heals, whatever, you can expect to get the same proc frequency, on average.
•Dual wielding and having both weapons enchanted with the same enchant will double the frequency of procs that you get.
•This Real PPM is increased by your haste %. (The highest of your melee, ranged, or spell haste is chosen).
•Simple as that. Whether you’re an Affliction Warlock dealing very frequent DoT ticks and Malefic Grasp ticks, or a Holy Paladin casting purely Holy Lights, or a Combat Rogue quickly attacking and using specials, or an Enhancement Shaman attacking with slow melee attacks and spells, or a Shadow Priest channeling Mind Sear on fifty Onyxian Whelps, you’ll get 2*Haste Windsong procs or 10*Haste Elemental Force procs per enchant per minute.
•We’re excited to see how this proc system works out. If it works well, we may start using it for more types of procs. Feedback about how it feels is most welcome.


Here are even more nitty gritty details, if you’re interested:


•It can proc from any damage/healing event. It keeps track of the last time it had a chance to proc for that enchant.
•It calculates the difference in time since the last chance to proc. It uses that time to determine the chance for that event to trigger a proc.
•For example, if you have 22% Haste, it was 1.4sec since the last chance to proc, and you’ve got Windsong, then the chance to proc is 2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.
•The ‘time since the last chance to proc’ is capped at 10sec, so that your first attack of a fight isn’t a guaranteed proc.

The important part is: "•Regardless of how you’re attacking or healing, slow or fast, with DoTs or direct heals, whatever, you can expect to get the same proc frequency, on average." as well as "•It calculates the difference in time since the last chance to proc. It uses that time to determine the chance for that event to trigger a proc."
Like, say, if you do 2 things in 10 seconds, and have a 50% chance of it procing off each hit, and you switch it up and do 4 things in 10 seconds, each has a 25% chance. This way it is more of a "real" proc per minute system, rather than giving fast hitters a bigger benifit than slow hitters. That was the idea of the system.

What elitistjerks came up with (ill have to find the post, will likely have to wait till my lunch break.) is that things keeping up recouperate (which can proc it) will not increase the uptime.


I raid 10 man, so maybe things are diffrent. Being able to remove mines on HM SG, HM spirit kings its very helpful on the first guy (after range spread out), HM elegon has times it can get hairy, will its godsent as a 10 man likely dosnt have enough immunities to take all the sparks, easier to have me do every one of them and let everyone else do their jobs to the fullest. Stand out on HM Imperial so the rest of the team can stay in bubbles and still take less damage than everyone else, galaron tanking its godsent. all and all, it can be very helpful. now if leeching was a DPS increase i'd use it, but i havent noticed it.

[Deleted]

stabing mob with daggers x times a second gives y enchant procs,
each time i stab a mob it can proc leeching which can also proc enchants at rate z.
if I have no leeching I don't get the "rolls to proc" that leeching would have, recoup is 1 attempt to proc every 3 seconds so is not a good comparison to leeching which literally procs several times a second from every melle/off-hand/ability we use. there is nothing stopping you ( other than astronimical ods) of geting a proc 0.5 seconds after the previous proc.

and you were comparing "elusiveness" to "leeching"

and then stating that taking leeching over what? cripple that procs an "immune" on bosses meaning you can't proc an enchant off it.

will somehow Not give better uptime.
I don't doubt that it has it's uses, simply that when it has none/less taking leeching over any other non-lethal will get you a better uptime with enchants as it doesn't just get an "immune" response from a boss.

[eijin]

Not trying to sound aggressive, but did you read my post? It was a quote straight from bliz. on a "PPM" system, yes that would be correct, you exactly described how PPM works, on the R PPM system, you are lowering your chance to proc it per hit exactly proportionate to the number of hits you add to the table. If it is not functioning the way they described the system then that is a different story. but you post how you felt it works, i posted what bliz said, then your next post doesn't seem to have chanced at all based on what bliz said.

"•Regardless of how you’re attacking or healing, slow or fast, with DoTs or direct heals, whatever, you can expect to get the same proc frequency, on average."

So everything can proc it.

"•It calculates the difference in time since the last chance to proc. It uses that time to determine the chance for that event to trigger a proc."

If youre adding more to the table, It sees you procced it x time ago and lowers the chance per action to proc it again accordingly to keep it the same frequency.

•This Real PPM is increased by your haste %. (The highest of your melee, ranged, or spell haste is chosen).

that -does- change it, is haste.

Recoup is less actions than leeching, definitely, but if 1 action every 3 seconds has 0 effect on it, zero, then one effect every second will miraculously have a lot of impact? Its very true leeching is the only decent secondary poison in most situations, i was just saying on that front for survivability elusiveness is leagues ahead.

[shadowboy]

Poisons will not increase uptime on dancing steel (on average).

Recuperate, however, could potentially "preproc" DS/WS if it's ticking while you're off target, but the damage gain from that is significantly less than using those combo points on an offensive finisher when you get back on target.

There's no reason to use leeching poison over elusiveness or even cheat death (or elusiveness over leeching/cheat death, or cheat death over... you get the idea) unless the particular fight dictates one is better than the other. I use leeching in general, but on some fights I use elusiveness and just don't use a utility poison at all (imperial vizier comes to mind for the no-nonlethal-poison).

I would not go so far as to say elusiveness is "leagues ahead" of leeching though. On fights that play to its strengths it is, but on those that don't, it's definitely not "leagues ahead" of leeching.

Elusiveness costs you dps to use. Leeching doesn't. For infrequent and predictable big AoE damage (total annihilation, force and verve), elusiveness is amazing. For constant damage or non-aoe damage, leeching is going to do you more than spending 20 energy every 5 or 7 seconds.

That said, the thread has gotten off topic:

OP: Don't waste your global, it costs a rogue NOTHING to put up the debuff, whether it's single target or aoe. In fact, if the rogue is not putting it up it's because (s)he isn't using poisons and that's gimping the rogue's own output.

[eijin]

I would not go so far as to say elusiveness is "leagues ahead" of leeching though. On fights that play to its strengths it is, but on those that don't, it's definitely not "leagues ahead" of leeching.

leagues ahead, as i was intended the statement, would only be in terms of survivability in a raid situation. leeching gives healing over time, the majority of the time when people are likely to die (with decent healers) is going to be burst of damage or burst of DPS from the boss. Of course fights where im not likely to die, or that dont have a mechanic that almost requires me to "take one for the team" then i use leeching. no reason not to.

i feel naked without a second poison on :-/ no actual purpose in it, but i use crippling on fights where i dont have leeching.

[exjay]

Poisons will not increase uptime on dancing steel (on average).

OP: Don't waste your global, it costs a rogue NOTHING to put up the debuff, whether it's single target or aoe. In fact, if the rogue is not putting it up it's because (s)he isn't using poisons and that's gimping the rogue's own output.

Ok thank you thats good to know.

[Deleted]

Poisons will not increase uptime on dancing steel (on average).

There's no reason to use leeching poison over elusiveness or even cheat death (or elusiveness over leeching/cheat death, or cheat death over... you get the idea) unless the particular fight dictates one is better than the other. I use leeching in general, but on some fights I use elusiveness and just don't use a utility poison at all (imperial vizier comes to mind for the no-nonlethal-poison).

please test this for me next time ur doing a boss u normally never have a utility poison, use leeching and compare your uptimes as the point of rppm is that with more chances to proc ( leeching compared to nothing) you Should have more uptime of your enchants it's simple maths as you "had more chances to proc it over the whole fight" thereby reducing time after 1 proc before next proc.

and yes i appologise for de-rail, but leave it to the rogue and as i dought 5% spelldamg only being up on 1/2 the mobs ( if bad rng chance for poisons) isn't gona make or break your kill, especialy as it uses a resource you could be using for extra damg elsewhere.

[eijin]

I feel almost ignored in this thread :-/ I was keeping a 75-85% uptime on dancing steel on fights where i had leeching and fights where i had elusiveness. "more chances to proc but a lower proc chance per hit" is how RPPM works. ive cited blizard on this. Why the heck would RPPM exist and why the heck would they move things to RPPM if it worked the same way PPM worked? (auto attack, you get 2 PPM, start doing special attacks, you get 3 PPM and so on). RPPM adjust to account for EVERYTHING, but lowers the proc chance based on how many things are on the table to keep the "real" procs per minute closer to the projected. Shadowboy gave a reason recoup could increase it, procing it during time spent off the boss.

RPPM isnt a simple math thing, more goes on behind the scenes. If you have a 10% chance of something happening and you do it 10 times, or if you have a 5% chance of something happening and you do it 20 times, which will happen more often?

[Tziva]

sorry how does that make any sence if I have an extra chance to proc a buff how doesn't that result in higher uptime as i will get more procs!?!

The other things will proc less to balance out.