Kil'jaeden's Cunning Quirk

[Screwtape]

I wanted to make a topic discussing KJC and to add something worthwhile off the bat, I'll share a quirk I discovered (maybe new, maybe not). If you are standing still while casting UA or Haunt, you can start moving again in the middle of the cast and it will not incur a stack of the debuff. This does not apply to Malefic grasp, sadly.

In the last few weeks of raiding, I've loved KJC, especially on Vizier and Blade-Lord. With the recent changes, I feel as if it has been nerfed heavily, though. It seems to work alright in those first two fights, although not as well, but I'm torn on Garalon. So yay or nay?

[Nerraw]

Shhhhhhhh!

---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 07:56 PM ----------

I personally find it OP as hell as Destruction. Didn't know it wasn't working with MG though.

[jaymzkerten]

If I remember correctly you need to be actively moving while casting for 1 full second for a stack to apply, and if you are in the middle of a UA or haunt cast you will finish the cast before the 1 second happens. MG obviously is a longer channel time so moving in the middle of the channel will still net you a stack, however if you were to move with less than 1 second left on the channel and don't immediately start channeling again you would avoid the stack (but this would be a DPS loss since you would have downtime).

[Kink]

I know I have seen a dramatic increase in my DPS for any movement or quick movement fights, like garalon I did 100k as a kiter with a few mess-ups. I also noticed the UA/Haunt ignoring the debuff thing but since it didn't work for MG I figured it was just a bug for the fight I was doing or something. It has been anything but nerfed though, I can say that for sure.

[Deleted]

How come do you feel it was nerfed if it no longer reduces casting speed? Sure you might take a bit longer to get where you need to be, but you dont lose any dps while doing so.

[Kildragon]

KJC nerf? It doesn't apply a cast time debuff anymore and the stacks are only 15%.

[kaamila]

im not done raiding for the week(so far cleared 6/6H MSV, 2/4n ToES, working on heroic vizier) but i love the new KJ. for the fights ive done so far this week getting 30% reduced speed made no difference in dodging stuff. the only fight so far this week i dont want stacks is on vizier when im dodging rings, other than that the reduced speed doesnt matter.

[Screwtape]

I know I have seen a dramatic increase in my DPS for any movement or quick movement fights, like garalon I did 100k as a kiter with a few mess-ups. I also noticed the UA/Haunt ignoring the debuff thing but since it didn't work for MG I figured it was just a bug for the fight I was doing or something. It has been anything but nerfed though, I can say that for sure.

10%-> 15%

How come do you feel it was nerfed if it no longer reduces casting speed? Sure you might take a bit longer to get where you need to be, but you dont lose any dps while doing so.

This reminds me of those DPS vs speed boots enchants discussions. There are two times when you need to move in a fight, to get away from shit or to position yourself to the boss. The talent would be optimal in a situation where you were running along with the boss. There don't seem to be too many of these sorts of fights out now though. What we have is fights where you need to move away from things, in which case the new KJC hinders you, and fights where you have to run to a specific position before you can begin DPSing in earnest (Garalon and parts of Vizier).

im not done raiding for the week(so far cleared 6/6H MSV, 2/4n ToES, working on heroic vizier) but i love the new KJ. for the fights ive done so far this week getting 30% reduced speed made no difference in dodging stuff. the only fight so far this week i dont want stacks is on vizier when im dodging rings, other than that the reduced speed doesnt matter.

It kinda sounds like you're saying "I really like KJC when it's not that helpful and don't use it when it could be".

[Nerraw]

If I remember correctly you need to be actively moving while casting for 1 full second for a stack to apply, and if you are in the middle of a UA or haunt cast you will finish the cast before the 1 second happens. MG obviously is a longer channel time so moving in the middle of the channel will still net you a stack, however if you were to move with less than 1 second left on the channel and don't immediately start channeling again you would avoid the stack (but this would be a DPS loss since you would have downtime).

It doesn't apply for me at all during a CB cast if I just stand still the moment I start casting. After that, you can move as much as you want without incurring the debuff.

[Kink]

10%-> 15%

I would take 10% more movement reduction then cast reduction, this is one of the best spells we have now and if you can't still follow mechanics with a slight movement reduction, just don't take it(or just use the on-use and go back to fel flaming while on CD). I was dodging rings on vizier while under 30% movement reduction while guildies were getting hit.

[Deleted]

This reminds me of those DPS vs speed boots enchants discussions. There are two times when you need to move in a fight, to get away from shit or to position yourself to the boss. The talent would be optimal in a situation where you were running along with the boss. There don't seem to be too many of these sorts of fights out now though. What we have is fights where you need to move away from things, in which case the new KJC hinders you, and fights where you have to run to a specific position before you can begin DPSing in earnest (Garalon and parts of Vizier).

I agree that on Garalon it might be prejudicial if and only if you're not on kiting duty. On Vizier, you can just not dps while youre switching platforms, and on attenuation, you use blood rush if you know you wont be hit. The other options are casting FF or not casting at all. With the old KJC you had to do the same option but you had the cast time reduction on top of that. (This all speaking strickly from an affliction point of view).
I don't, however, agree that KJC hinders you when you have to move away from things. I could start enumerating every single fight this tier and show you that you can predict if you will be taking damage and that you can plan ahead for those 30% less movement speed to avoid taking damage. One thing, you can be sure of is that you have to have quite good awareness and understanding of the fight to effectively avoid that damage, but on the other hand, you'll be doing damage while moving, which is bound to be a big dps bonus.

[ambident]

I would take 10% more movement reduction then cast reduction, this is one of the best spells we have now and if you can't still follow mechanics with a slight movement reduction, just don't take it(or just use the on-use and go back to fel flaming while on CD). I was dodging rings on vizier while under 30% movement reduction while guildies were getting hit.

yep, the change is definitely a great buff on high movement fights. i'll probably use it on almost all fights this tier.

also, when combined with burning rush you move at 105% speed

[nightfalls]

This reminds me of those DPS vs speed boots enchants discussions. There are two times when you need to move in a fight, to get away from shit or to position yourself to the boss. The talent would be optimal in a situation where you were running along with the boss. There don't seem to be too many of these sorts of fights out now though. What we have is fights where you need to move away from things, in which case the new KJC hinders you, and fights where you have to run to a specific position before you can begin DPSing in earnest (Garalon and parts of Vizier).

1) Fights where you have to do a lot of movement (Garalon) = Kil'jaeden's is good because you can somewhat move and if you really have to move, you can just use the activated bonus.

2) Fights where you do small movement (Stone Guard, "not standing in shit") = Kil'jaeden's is really, really good because you 1) hardly move to get out of things, and 2) don't lose supermassive DPS from not channeling MG for the 0.4 sec you are moving (which is a LOT of DPS loss for the time you spent moving out of something).

3) Fights where Kil'jaeden's isn't good = fights where MF (Elegon, other heavy AoE fights) is required, or where Archimonde's Vengeance would be better. Aside from a complete standstill (Ultraxion), which I haven't encountered this tier, I can hardly think of any situation where AV would be better.

I daresay the change (at least for PvE) probably made warlocks a little too good, which might cause fear for a nerf...

[kaamila]

10%-> 15%



This reminds me of those DPS vs speed boots enchants discussions. There are two times when you need to move in a fight, to get away from shit or to position yourself to the boss. The talent would be optimal in a situation where you were running along with the boss. There don't seem to be too many of these sorts of fights out now though. What we have is fights where you need to move away from things, in which case the new KJC hinders you, and fights where you have to run to a specific position before you can begin DPSing in earnest (Garalon and parts of Vizier).



It kinda sounds like you're saying "I really like KJC when it's not that helpful and don't use it when it could be".

not to sure i understand what you mean. being able to dps while moving at a cost of having reduced movement speed that as i said for the bosses ive tried it on this week so far make no difference, is extremely helpful. from my raid kills so far this week, i saw no need to actually USE the cooldown on KJC. keep in mind i still have the rest of heroic heart of fear and heroic terrace to try it out

[Screwtape]

Thank you for that post voidspark. I was thinking the same thing too, that it's best when there is lots of small movement.

I'm not sure what some of you are arguing. I think you're under the impression that I think it's a bad talent or don't want to use it. sepharoth's post is an excellent example of the thought process. The decision to cast while moving in a given situation is binary. You either do it or you don't. What's not binary is the range of situations, skill, luck, latency, etc that goes into the decision. What I liked about the previous form of KJC is that there was some wiggle room in the decision. I could cast one spell off with only a 10% debuff. Yes, the slower MG, for better or worse, abetted this because you only had to cast the one spell. What I'm seeing in Kaamila and sepharoth's posts is that the dps increase while moving is being lauded, rightly. What I fear, however, is that the range of situations in which you make that binary decision to cast while moving has shrunk significantly.

[Woz]

I wanted to make a topic discussing KJC and to add something worthwhile off the bat, I'll share a quirk I discovered (maybe new, maybe not). If you are standing still while casting UA or Haunt, you can start moving again in the middle of the cast and it will not incur a stack of the debuff. This does not apply to Malefic grasp, sadly.

In the last few weeks of raiding, I've loved KJC, especially on Vizier and Blade-Lord. With the recent changes, I feel as if it has been nerfed heavily, though. It seems to work alright in those first two fights, although not as well, but I'm torn on Garalon. So yay or nay?

It doesn't "work" with MG or DS because it applies the debuff when the cast does a damage tick. If you stop moving before the tick actually happens you won't get the debuff and you can move again before the next tick occurs. This applies for any channel/cast that has "ticks".

KJC is great for Garalon because the slow debuff actually helps you place pools closer together without doing twitchy movements.

3) Fights where Kil'jaeden's isn't good = fights where MF (Elegon, other heavy AoE fights) is required, or where Archimonde's Vengeance would be better. Aside from a complete standstill (Ultraxion), which I haven't encountered this tier, I can hardly think of any situation where AV would be better.

AV is amazing on Elegon (Norm/Heroic)/Windlord (Norm/Heroic)/WoTE (Heroic)/Grand Empress (Norm/Heroic)/Amber Shaper (Norm/Heroic) because there's either constant damage or periods of high damage where the reflect damage is really outrageous. Example being Heroic Windlord - Rain of Blades during Recklessness is HUGE damage. Yummy free damage.

[wholol]

It doesn't "work" with MG or DS because it applies the debuff when the cast does a damage tick. If you stop moving before the tick actually happens you won't get the debuff and you can move again before the next tick occurs. This applies for any channel/cast that has "ticks".

this.

Also , KjC totally negates any penalty if you originally start the cast while standing still then moving, this so called 1 sec rule does not apply, try casting soul well or summon a pet doing this, you will not get snared, if done correctly you can move and cast without any penalty as long as you use stutter movements.

and suddenly we stumble onto burning rush

[Deleted]

Absolutely loving the new KJ, with its duo partner burning rush, not only are you casting on the move, but slightly faster than without the talents moving. Yes you take more damage from the health drain, but in certain fights, the health loss for dps boost is just incredible.

[Last Starfighter]

10%-> 15%



This reminds me of those DPS vs speed boots enchants discussions. There are two times when you need to move in a fight, to get away from shit or to position yourself to the boss. The talent would be optimal in a situation where you were running along with the boss. There don't seem to be too many of these sorts of fights out now though. What we have is fights where you need to move away from things, in which case the new KJC hinders you, and fights where you have to run to a specific position before you can begin DPSing in earnest (Garalon and parts of Vizier).



It kinda sounds like you're saying "I really like KJC when it's not that helpful and don't use it when it could be".

Um, KJC is NOT useful on H Vizier. What else are you getting from him that says "I really like KJC, when it's not that helpful and don't use it when I could be."? Or are you just trying to bash the guy?

And have you kited on Garalon? It's absolutely build for that. Hell, even if you aren't kiting on Garalon, it's great because you do move on that fight.

[Woz]

Um, KJC is NOT useful on H Vizier. What else are you getting from him that says "I really like KJC, when it's not that helpful and don't use it when I could be."? Or are you just trying to bash the guy?

Are you smoking up? KJC is by far the most useful talent for H Vizier. There are many occasions where you are able to use the ability to its fullest capability. I really doubt you're using it properly.