Socialized medicine in the UK (and beyond) LCP... Death

[Deleted]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

BAD! BAD! BAD CUS ITS COOL TO HATE LEFTISM, MURICA!

[Catta]

TBQ I didn't look. I don't doubt that it's possible but the cost of doing so could easily be astronomical. 52-60% on money earned that's barely over the median wage in the US is a hefty price tag.

Yea - its not all the money going to the healthcare...

[Laize]

Yea - its not all the money going to the healthcare...

What percentage is it, then?

[Jackmoves]

The funny thing about socialized medicine is that people think it's free, high quality and no one gets turned away.

It's not true. You can find coverage denial stories in every health system on the planet.

There are always going to be people who fall through the cracks. With the American system, it's poor people who can't afford basic care. With the European systems, it's the dependents who need far more specialized care.

No system is perfect and I think people who hold up single payer healthcare as the greatest thing since the discovery of fire should get their heads in the game and confront harsh realities that their system isn't perfect.

Not gonna pretend our system is perfect, because it isn't, but the rate of young children dying is really not something The US shines in as such, 8 out of 1000 kids don't live to their 5th bday in the US, in Sweden it's 3.

Unicef - The State of the World's Children

[Catta]

What percentage is it, then?

I have no idea. Trying to find a pie chart but cant

[Laize]

Not gonna pretend our system is perfect, because it isn't, but the rate of young children dying is really not something The US shines in as such, 8 out of 1000 kids don't live to their 5th bday in the US, in Sweden it's 3.

Unicef - The State of the World's Children

I can't imagine why on earth kids in the US would die before age 5.

I'd be ridiculously surprised if it was health care related since minors in the US have excellent access to health care in all areas as long as their parents care enough to fill out welfare forms.

Based on my own experiences I'd wager kids in the south are more likely to die early simply because their parents are basically third-world brains living in a first world country. In the more... civilized... states (pretty much everything except Alabama, Mississippi etc) I'd wager the childhood mortality rate is as low as you can realistically get.

[draykorinee]

As a nurse myself I use the LCP nearly every day, the daily mail is the most disgusting paper, the most one sided, bias, vile and repulsive paper imaginable (telegraph being nt much better), the fact is there are testimonials from these doctors and families yet they are such a tiny minuscule proportion, the LCP promotes dignity in dying it is not starving and dehydrating until they turn in to husks like this article suggests.

This is disgusting and wrong on every level. This isn't the work of a civilized society.
Hospitals were paid in the tens of millions of pounds to meet quotas of people killed using the LCP.

These are the brainless comments the daily mail will make you say if you read it. I can say unequivocally that the huge majority of patients put on the lcp last between 6 hours and 2 days and most are completely unaware of surroundings/people, I have yet in 6 years of using the LCP had a family member be other than grateful for the care they receive with the LCP. The daily mail has no clue what its talking about and is just sensationalising to sell papers or attract people to read its website.
I have no doubts that there are relatives and profesionals who have negative experiences and they should be looked in to case by case, but blanket bashing the LCP because of them is not the answer otherwise you end up with people like this

Having said that though these latest reports have put some doubt in my mind that my dad was necessarily ready to go at this time.

Noone should be thinking that years after their family members death.
Every patient put on the LCP in my trust gets seen by one of many paliative care nurses, all have years of training and experience within hospices, palliative care has come a long long way, its not always perfect but its never going to be in such a large organisation. I have seen patients families refuse the lcp and suffer withdrawn deaths and I have seen people put on the LCP who have come off it 2 days later because unlike what this article says it is not a doctor signing a death warrant.

Funny how in other countries with socialised medicine this doesn't happen. So basically it is a problem of the UK, not of socialised medicine.
.

The LCP is backed by the EAPC and similar pathways are used throughout europe, I doubt you have read a single journal in regards to palliative care in your life.

[mvaliz]

Kind of weird how "red" is the republican colour as well as the communist colour

I still want to see a video parody of "Red Dawn" showcasing a hostile takeover of the United States by the GOP. :P

[Palmatum]

I'd rather have socialized medicine than have whatever it is you call it in the US.

Great, I'm alive but my insurance didn't pay out. Guess I better find a cardboard box to cover myself with because it's going to rain tonight. Yay for expensive healthcare.

[Laize]

I'd rather have socialized medicine than have whatever it is you call it in the US.

Great, I'm alive but my insurance didn't pay out. Guess I better find a cardboard box to cover myself with because it's going to rain tonight. Yay for expensive healthcare.

Insurance refusing to pay out is an EXTREMELY rare scenario.

I still don't get why people think its' common.

Yes, our health care is extremely expensive and something is being done about that.

We're not doing it through price-fixing as the Europeans do, however.

[Deleted]

Insurance refusing to pay out is an EXTREMELY rare scenario.

I still don't get why people think its' common.

Yes, our health care is extremely expensive and something is being done about that.

We're not doing it through price-fixing as the Europeans do, however.

Well, Obama is trying to do a little to improve your health care system, but you know the hate the Democrats were getting for that attempt. As long as you keep your paranoia of socialized medicine, you will remain, as you called it, "third-world brains living in a first world country".

[Laize]

Well, Obama is trying to do a little to improve your health care system, but you know the hate the Democrats were getting for that attempt. As long as you keep your paranoia of socialized medicine, you will remain, as you called it, "third-world brains living in a first world country".

Actually it's the south that gives the rest of America a bad name.

It's not a paranoia of socialized medicine as much as it is a seething hatred for taxation and welfare.

[draykorinee]

I'd rather have socialized medicine than have whatever it is you call it in the US.

Great, I'm alive but my insurance didn't pay out. Guess I better find a cardboard box to cover myself with because it's going to rain tonight. Yay for expensive healthcare.

The likelihood is you're dead or severely disabled because you couldn't afford insurance in the first place.

[Laize]

The likelihood is you're dead or severely disabled because you couldn't afford insurance in the first place.

The huge majority of people in the United States have insurance. 40 million people is an objectively big number but the fact is it's only 12.5% of the total population. Of that 12.5% some portion is eligible for Medicaid or Medicare but doesn't get it. Some other portion can afford individual health insurance but opts not to pay for it out of pocket.

It's a problem but it's not as big as everyone seems to think.

[draykorinee]

The huge majority of people in the United States have insurance. 40 million people is an objectively big number but the fact is it's only 12.5% of the total population. Of that 12.5% some portion is eligible for Medicaid or Medicare but doesn't get it. Some other portion can afford individual health insurance but opts not to pay for it out of pocket.

It's a problem but it's not as big as everyone seems to think.

Im sure those 40 million people see it as a big problem, and I read some research somewhere that said somewhere around the 40% mark of the populaton have no insurance or are having problems with medical bills and medical debt, and this trends are that these numbers are on the up. Its probably not as big a problem as our media sensationalises but probably a bigger problem than the right wingers like to make it out as well.

[Deleted]

The huge majority of people in the United States have insurance. 40 million people is an objectively big number but the fact is it's only 12.5% of the total population. Of that 12.5% some portion is eligible for Medicaid or Medicare but doesn't get it. Some other portion can afford individual health insurance but opts not to pay for it out of pocket.

It's a problem but it's not as big as everyone seems to think.

It is a huge number and a huge percentage for a a first world country, especially with the resources and wealth of the USA. Seething hatred is similarly irrational as paranoia, and it may be worst in the south USA, with their brand of conservatism, but it is the same brand what media like Daily Mail, Bild are working to introduce in the UK and Germany.

[Laize]

It is a huge number and a huge percentage for a a first world country, especially with the resources and wealth of the USA. Seething hatred is similarly irrational as paranoia, and it may be worst in the south USA, with their brand of conservatism, but it is the same brand what media like Daily Mail, Bild are working to introduce in the UK and Germany.

I'm not saying 12.5% of the population is an acceptable number to be uninsured for a wealthy nation.

I'm saying it's not a big enough problem to say private insurance needs to go and single payer needs to come in.

I think single-payer is nothing short of price-fixing which I find to be an inherently unethical way to do things.

[Ycarene]

Two things,

A) This is the daily mail, I'd take article posted on this site with a huge grain of salt.

B) All of the other sites with this story refer back to the daily mail article. With the exception of that of a british conspiracy nut who just copied the Dail Mail article (or maybe it was the other way around, both are just about the same in credibility)

[Deleted]

Nurse here. The OP, The Daily Mail and almost everyone in this thread have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. I have seen many, many people on the LCP and cared for more people on the Pathway than I can remember.

Every single one of them was Terminally Ill, with an extremely poor prognosis in the very short term. The LCP means we focus our efforts on ensuring they pass away in a manner that is as comfortable and as pain free as possible. This is instead of continuing to perform invasive treatment (or even CPR) on someone who has no quality of life and an extremely low chance of a positive outcome.

[Laize]

Nurse here. The OP, The Daily Mail and almost everyone in this thread have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. I have seen many, many people on the LCP and cared for more people on the Pathway than I can remember.

Every single one of them was Terminally Ill, with an extremely poor prognosis in the very short term. The LCP means we focus our efforts on ensuring they pass away in a manner that is as comfortable and as pain free as possible. This is instead of continuing to perform invasive treatment (or even CPR) on someone who has no quality of life and an extremely low chance of a positive outcome.

With due respect to your profession, the accusations aren't just from the Daily Mail.

It appears that there are several reports of individuals being placed on the LCP who are either uninformed of that decision or, in other cases, there was no documentation showing that the patient's condition was untreatable. That's not the Daily Mail saying that. That's the Telegraph.

I think the problem with "news" like the Daily Mail is that it only focuses on anecdotes of a story, rather than the problem that allowed such an event to happen.