Shadowpriest 5.1 -Why cant blizzard see all our current faults and flaws?

[Relapses]

You really can't call that strategy "cheesing," Nestar. My 10M group found Grand Empress is actually easier to go into the second phase 1 with a Reaver alive. Given your tanks know what the fuck they're doing and your healers aren't especially taxed, it gives your melee a decent buff which we found helped us push the last phase before the second wave of sonic discharge comes out.

Additionally, when the fuck HASN'T WoL been all about people abusing mechanics to get higher parses? It was like this for ALL of Cataclysm, so it baffles me why it'd suddenly change in this expac. That's why RaidBots isn't always the best tool to measure how players are stacking up against each other. It's also far too subjective and the sample size is too small to say ridiculous bullshit like "oh, your whole raid's DPS sucks because you're top." Some Priests in some guilds are going to do better than the same exact Priests in other guilds. Some guilds run private logs (and some don't run logs at all), so we can't even say that we're looking at the whole picture when you glance at WoL rankings. Some encounters favor SPriests, others don't. Taking this into consideration, the opinion of an SPriest that is doing relatively well in their guild might be different than one who is struggling. The idea that we're vastly underpowered when stacked against other players of different classes and similar skill level based off of your own raiding experience is anecdotal evidence of a problem that isn't nearly as bad as some people make it out to be. This particular "problem" has existed since DPS meters were introduced. It's just too difficult for Blizzard to balance 45,000 DPS specs evenly and, again, it's very unlikely we'll ever see this game balanced as such.

I'll digress slightly and concede that, yes, the rotation is a bit stale and yes, there isn't much that rewards a truly amazing SPriest when compared to a mediocre SPriest, but that's where the minutiae comes into play (ie, spec changing and experimenting on your own to see what nets you the most personal DPS on any given encounter). Sure, we might not be Affliction Warlocks or whatever Mage spec is currently dominating meters, but we're also not MM Hunters or Sub Rogues. SPriests are not being unilaterally sat by top end guilds because of poor relative performance, either. Number tweaking is a possible solution to the single target woes a lot of SPriests are experiencing, but it seems unrealistic to expect them to completely redesign the way things are working presently by the time 5.2 hits.

[Nestar]

You really can't call that strategy "cheesing," Nestar. My 10M group found Grand Empress is actually easier to go into the second phase 1 with a Reaver alive. Given your tanks know what the fuck they're doing and your healers aren't especially taxed, it gives your melee a decent buff which we found helped us push the last phase before the second wave of sonic discharge comes out.

Additionally, when the fuck HASN'T WoL all about people abusing mechanics to get higher parses? It was like this for ALL of Cataclysm, so it baffles me why it'd suddenly change in this expac. That's why RaidBots isn't always the best tool to measure how players are stacking up against each other. It's far too subjective and the sample size is too small to say ridiculous bullshit like "oh, your whole raid's DPS sucks because you're top." Some Priests in some guilds are going to do better than the same exact Priests in other guilds. Some guilds run private logs (and some don't run logs at all), so we can't even say that we're looking at the whole picture when you glance at WoL rankings. Some encounters favor SPriests, others don't. Taking this into consideration, the opinion of an SPriest that is doing relatively well in their guild might be different than one who is struggling. The idea that we're vastly underpowered when stacked against other players of different classes and similar skill level based off of your own raiding experience is anecdotal evidence of a problem that isn't nearly as bad as some people make it out to be. This particular "problem" has existed since DPS meters were introduced. It's just too difficult for Blizzard to balance 45,000 DPS specs evenly and, again, it's very unlikely we'll ever see this game balanced as such.

I'll digress slightly and concede that, yes, the rotation is a bit stale and yes, there isn't much that rewards a truly amazing SPriest when compared to a mediocre SPriest, but that's where the minutiae comes into play (ie, sec changing and experimenting on your own to see what nets you the most personal DPS on any given encounter). Sure, we might not be Affliction Warlocks or whatever Mage spec is currently dominating meters, but we're not MM Hunters or Sub Rogues either. SPriests are not being unilaterally sat by top end guilds because of poor relative performance, either. Number tweaking is a possible solution to the single target woes a lot of SPriests are experiencing, but it seems unrealistic to expect them to completely redesign the way things are working presently by the time 5.2 hits.

Yes, I can definitely see where that would be the case as far as it being easier in a 10man run. For us as 25 we're nowhere close to enrange, we'll literally wait out enough amber to build 2 traps, Sit there doing nothing for a good 20 seconds so we can enter the last phase without any additional adds.

Personally my concern with shadow as is, is that I can do what I consider to be a "perfect" run, as in on single target my uptime is 99.6%, MB avg time between casts of like 9.2 seconds and some nice fdcl proc's to round it all off. Yet even in a run like that, I'll be sitting a good 20-30k below any of our mages, dk's, or warlocks. Then switch to a multi target fight, and i'm the same distance behind, even if they can't cleave for the majority of it.
Heck when you go look at even the top 15 shadow parses, I'd venture the majority of them, that shadowpriest wasn't even the top damage in their group, even on the fights where shadow is up high on the dpsbot lists. Kinda disheartening to do that good and still do that bad at the same time.

I feel obliged to mention however, that our offhealing is frickin out of control retarted.
I've had runs where I'll be higher than a holy pally (assigned to tank healing only, nothing else)
Grand Empress for examples, As I mentioned it earlier, last run I did, finished at like 30k heals, in shadow :/ During the last phase, my average was 60k hps. That's basically divine star and vampiric embrace alone. Really over powered in shadow if you ask me. The recent buff to divine star as far as healing was concerned, should only have been done to disc/holy imo.

[Juicebox]

My comment about he being amazing shadowpriest was sarcasm, if you look at every post he mades he always states that everyone sucks and thats why we feel shadowpriest are not ok, so that lead me to think that he may be raiding with awful dps, being inside the top 200 means nothing, the main reason this post was made is to realizes that shadowpriest are behind other dps classes in equal circunstances, and almost everyone top 10-20 world of logs of each class is normaly that, getting help for boss mechanics + rng luck , but it doesnt reflect skill, you can check top guild with world first kill after a while when everyone is killing all bosses they are not even in the top 10 of each class parses, you may see them now in world of logs leading those ranks in heroic sha of fear for example because theres not that many guilds killing those bosses so rank means nothing.

Yes, I'm obviously a bad Shadowpriest. The fact that I know how to use my abilities and talents the best way helps me. It obviously doesn't help you though, which is why I'm telling you it's a player issue in your case. Ranking on 13 of 16 fights doesn't seem that bad to me, but I guess you're better. Go on then, show me your logs.

It's just like I said, there's a lot of Shadowpriests out there who doesn't use their abilities to the fullest, and then complains about Shadow being bad.
First, sort out your own game then we can talk about issues of the spec, cause they do exist.

[Yvaelle]

Jumping back on topic for a bit, I was considering various ways to alter or buff shadow in minor ways that would probably be called for - not All of these need to be implemented in parallel, I'm just listing the options and considerations for each:


1. Power Infusion - adding 5% passive haste would make this talent a comparable choice to the other two and help less-geared spriests reach haste breakpoints without sacrificing Int in the process, as gear improves PI can then be dropped or picked up as we get into range of other haste breakpoints. This is also important because Shadow desperately needs a burst cooldown after the loss of Archangel (and 4pT13), and while PI isn't a great offensive cooldown it couldn't hurt at this point.


2. Possibly adding Archangel back as a spec baseline? It would suck now unfortunately because Mind Flay's DPET is so very low, and Mind Blast was moved from a combo finisher to a combo builder - doing much less relative damage now - so perhaps the design of AA would need a revamp for Shadow's version - but its still in the game for Disc so its not like its asking anything of the art team (also as Glyph of Dark Archangel). Could use some thought on new ideas for what it would do.


3. Shadow Word: Insanity needs a redesign, the easiest way would be to add something like a 60 second cooldown, and making it deal damage equal to 2000 + 80% of spellpower per tick of Shadow Word: Pain on the target (current Pain application only of course). This would mean for 6 ticks of Pain and 28000 spellpower, Insanity would deal 146,400 damage - but it also means it would scale off Mastery procs and Haste (sw: Pain breakpoints). The need for it to wipe Pain off the target would also be unnecessary. Given the above, this would provide ~2500 DPS before haste and mastery procs, which would put it about in line with FDCL and Mindbender after you count haste/mastery - and would mean it stays relevant as it scales just the same as FDCL (haste and mastery but not crit).

In PvP, this gives us the option of higher burst but at the cost of two Very good alternatives - FDCL is almost considered mandatory for PvP already, but Mindbender is an entirely acceptable alternative given the right comp. Taking this new Insanity would give us a real burst window (MB/DP/Insanity/Death), but at the cost of making us easier to lock down and pressure (no FDCL), and/or easier to control during burst cycles (no Mindbender) - I'd say that's a fair cost - and the above number is a pve number with a pve-spellpower value not achieveable in pvp, and before resilience. In practice in pvp, with ~25000 spellpower in BiS gear with trinket active, and against 60% resilience with 50% pvp power, it would hit for 92,400. That's big, but it's also once a minute and very predictable (always at the end of Pain, once a minute) - this could crit for 184,800 - but with only an 11% crit chance that risk is trivial compared to Chaos Bolt (always crits) or Warrior attacks (~80% crit chance during Recklessness) - and still a good deal smaller than either - so even taking Insanity and giving up FDCL/Mindbender, we still wouldn't be truly one of 'the bursty ones' (but we'd have the option of being close, 11% of the time - and I think that's a solid talent decision model).


4. Mind Blast's cooldown scaling with Haste. So, currently we gear around 25% haste, on an 8 second cooldown this would mean a 6 second cooldown on MB. Currently (ignoring DI a moment), we get 1 Devouring Plague every 28.5 seconds - using Glyph of Mind Spike and FDCL, we get one every 24 seconds if we get enough FDCL procs to keep all MB's instant. With a 6 second MB cooldown, we could get one DP every 22.5 seconds, or every 18 seconds with FDCL + GoMS: but this is far less likely as the idea of getting in 2 MsK GCDs every 6 seconds without sacrificing higher DPET spells is probably impossible to maintain even on a single target. How much of a DPS increase would this be? Well, we would get 1.685 more Mind Blasts per minute, subtract the difference in DPET from Mind Blast to Flay is like... 45,000 damage per minute from faster mindblasts (750 DPS), plus about half a devouring plague, subtract half a gcd worth of mind flay - so like 90,000 damage per minute (1,500 DPS).

Overall, having Mind Blasts cooldown scale with haste would give us only around 2250 DPS this tier, but in future tiers it would mean it continues to scale. I'm also neglecting here the potential loss (or gain?) to DI this would cause. But in future tiers, this would help us continue to scale with gear - and that's always important (otherwise we need buffs/nerfs every tier rather than just scaling properly). It's probably a good change from a design perspective, but it's not really a DPS fix by itself.


5. Buffing our DoTs (VT and Pain, ignoring DP as it is a finisher and not an uptime mechanic). Ariadne pointed out our DoT damage even on multi-dot fights was well behind our DoT class competitors (who, as should probably be expected - are top on multi-dot fights, while we are below many single target specs). I was originally looking for a way to buff single target damage in isolation - without making us too bursty in pvp (ruling out a DP buff) - but buffing DoTs is part of a better solution here.

Currently VT and Pain each make up about 10% of our damage on single target fights, (ie. if you do 100k single target DPS, Pain and VT each deal 10k DPS of that) - as it stands - Most of the real DPS gained by multi-dotting for us comes from Halo hitting multiple targets, and doubling (or tripling) our proc rates on FDCL and DI, but not from our DoT damage itself. An increase to VT and Pain of 20% more damage each would result in a ~4k DPS increase in single target, and a further ~4k DPS increase for each DoT-able target with 100% uptime throughout the fight. Given we are currently ~10-15k DPS below the 'good' single target specs, a 4k DPS increase in single target certainly isn't an over-buff, and in multi-target like Heroic Stone Dogs, 4k additional damage per target would bring us into the upper echelon while certainly not overshooting the colossal damage of specs like Combat, Fire, Balance and Affliction:

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_S...14/60/default/

So that could certainly be a good choice for a general damage buff too!

[snaxattax]

they need to do something to make casting mind flay fun/synergistic with something. whenever i'm casting mind flay, it feels like a crappy consolation prize compared to the stronger DPCT of FDCL procs (along with these procs slightly increasing our resource generation, which is a neat synergy) or the sweet graphics (and usually substantial damage) of our level 90 talents. maybe have every tick of mindflay reduce the cooldown of our level 90s (or mindblast) by a second, or by x% or something? would make the rotation more interesting without being the stupid whackamole of DI.

also, i don't understand why we can't get orbs on both SWDs back. our execute dps is crap compared to what warlocks (much less warriors) bring to the table... and theirs scales with haste/lust! make it not work in pvp i don't care, but shadowpriests need something other than add cheesing and dispel bitch duty to look forward to in encounters.

[Washuwa]

Yes, I'm obviously a bad Shadowpriest. The fact that I know how to use my abilities and talents the best way helps me. It obviously doesn't help you though, which is why I'm telling you it's a player issue in your case. Ranking on 13 of 16 fights doesn't seem that bad to me, but I guess you're better. Go on then, show me your logs.

It's just like I said, there's a lot of Shadowpriests out there who doesn't use their abilities to the fullest, and then complains about Shadow being bad.
First, sort out your own game then we can talk about issues of the spec, cause they do exist.

Ranking on 10 man seriously? lol you are so funny, lol

[veiledy0]

also, i don't understand why we can't get orbs on both SWDs back. our execute dps is crap compared to what warlocks (much less warriors) bring to the table... and theirs scales with haste/lust! make it not work in pvp i don't care, but shadowpriests need something other than add cheesing and dispel bitch duty to look forward to in encounters.

How does it not scale with haste? More haste > shorter gcd > you start the CD sooner > spell comes off CD sooner > you cast it more often..

[Venaliter]

spell locked because i ran out of procs and i still had to fight against that second winded warrior for a whopping 3k damage.

I actually find the current PvP setup insulting. Mind Spike should be something you cast when locked out of Shadow, perhaps (perhaps not) instant, that doesn't hit for a lot and doesn't extinguish DoTs. [/quote]

Make mind flay worth of something, i don't even care how. Make it able to proc FDCL so the guy here is happy.

Why can't FDCL affect Mindflay instead of Mind Spike? What if MindFlay did it's damage instantly, or hit twice as hard, or something similar?

Scrap out talents and re-do them. The only way to go, wich won't happen.

Yes..I think Shadows have some of the worst talents in the game. Considering how much attention priests get in beta, I'm unsurprised.

make psychic horror to not share the same resource of our only hard hitting ability

The design of Psychic Horror is shit. Using the Shadow Orb resource is ludicrous. I'd make the spell baseline for ALL priests.

You seem to forget that no matter how good our gear will become we will never scale decently to the gear we acquire.
With every other spec there is a way in which they scale based on the stats they acquire.

It will take till the last raid tier before they realise this. It's been like that in every expansion so why would it be different now.

So true.

If they made MB cooldown scale with haste it would pretty much fix us (this is definitely possible since they proposed it for pyroblast). That would give orb generation a nice scaling with gear that it currently lacks. Also it wouldn't really change our AoE damage.

It would have a lot, for sure. It was argued vehemently during Beta, but Blizzard knows best. Obviously.

---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 02:23 PM ----------

How does (SW) not scale with haste? More haste > shorter gcd > you start the CD sooner > spell comes off CD sooner > you cast it more often..

It does, technically. But it's the proverbial drop in the bucket. SW not scaling with Mastery and very little with Haste is a problem. A what-if scenario is what if Mastery increased SW's damage somehow?

In all fairness, I'm not really worried about the execute rotation. It's far better then some classes.

[Drye]

Jumping back on topic for a bit, I was considering various ways to alter or buff shadow in minor ways that would probably be called for - not All of these need to be implemented in parallel, I'm just listing the options and considerations for each:

I would like to see a lot of those changes, but, it still doesn't address that all we can do on the move is spam sw;P. I would really love the MF glyph to be changed to be able to cast MF on the move. Making MBs CD scale with haste would also fix part of our largest problem that we've had since the creation of shadow, and that is, we gain little to no real benefit compared to other classes when having lust/heroism up. I'm really surprised that no one has really brought this up since it is one of our largest problems right now and has been.

[snaxattax]

How does it not scale with haste? More haste > shorter gcd > you start the CD sooner > spell comes off CD sooner > you cast it more often..

that's so small, though. the cast time of mindblast at our 8085 haste point is ~1.2 sec, and it still has an 8 second cooldown. if we compare that to a base cast time of 1.5 sec with the still 8 second cooldown, you've improved your orbs/sec by roughly 3% (one orb per 9.2 sec instead of per 9.5 sec). pretty sure SWD's cooldown starts before the GCD even clears, so that doesn't really matter, unless you're talking getting off the 2nd (non orb generating) SWD more quickly.

also, venailer said he thinks shadow has the worst talents in game and i honestly can't agree with that. our talents (not our overall performance) is much better and more varied than, say, a moonkin's. all they have is to pick which CC adds are vulnerable to. shadow at least has a single target, multitarget, and council setup.

it's just that our base mechanics of orb generation are terrible if we can't use shadow word death throughout the fight on adds, and we lack cooldowns to stack with pots/lust. moonkin base mechanics are much stronger in that regard, and is a big reason why moonkin can outperform shadow quite handily on many fights.

[Venaliter]

also, venailer said he thinks shadow has the worst talents in game and i honestly can't agree with that. our talents (not our overall performance) is much better and more varied than, say, a moonkin's.

Should have been Priest, instead of Shadow. I take particular exception to PW:Solace/Insanity, which is a bad joke, Spectral Guise, which is near-useless now that is functions correctly, and minor mechanics like PI for Shadow, and Halo for Healing.

[evolina]

Just started HOF heroic 10 man with my shadow priest, and the dps output is really sad. 2/6 down so far and I was near the bottom on both of them. Doesn't seem much brighter on the bosses to come either. It just take a lot of the fun out of it for me really. Checked raidbots to see if it's me that's useless or whats going on, and sure enough, we are on the bottom or near it on almost all heroic HOF bosses.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...14/60/default/
Not a fun read at all to go through the HOF bosses charts.

I just want a fighting chance at doing competitive dps, and not be beat before it even begins.

[Harsesis]

While I wouldn't disagree that Spriests need help, as a warlock I would like to point out that the 2 specs that were viable for pve both saw nerfs. Yes Destro got buffed but it was only to bring it closer to the other two specs. It is still behind on single target.

[Deleted]

The big problem I've found is that when I'm starting a fight without having 2 or 3 orbs up, my DPS is screwed. After each wipe on progression bosses, we have to start with 0 orbs and wait 24 secs for our dps to ramp up.

Also, we are the only DPS class/spec that does not have a serious DPS CD. It was a very pure move to remove Archangel.

At every single target fight which requires average movement, our dps is completely screwed. First two bosses in HoF and Protectors in Terace are great examples.

4-set bonus is a sick joke.

In the end, the amount of skills and focus you have to put in to play decently a SPriest does not line up with the result. We got our best times in Cata, Blizz tried to balance things out and give some smile to other classes, but that's not the problem. I don't mind being the worst DPS, what really bothers me is being 20-30k behind a Fire Mage (pre nerfs), a DK or a Lock when I have the same ilvl, talent and glyph choice, stat weighting, enchanting, gemming are perfect according to a number of sources, sims and personal experimentation and logs show that I've done everything nearly perfect in that particular fight (>99% uptime on dots, MB cast literally on CD, tracking procs for more powerful DoTs etc.).

[Deleted]

[...]

My dps does seem to be scaling well as I get better gear, and every new piece gives a seemingly very good performance, but I am out dps'd massively by most other classes when playing my SP. Sometimes I can't even cast a Mind Flay as I have so many Mind Blast and Mind Spike procs on the trot, other times I can be bored stupid waiting for something to do, and unlike a lock we have much worse mobility while casting.

[...]

Sorry to say, but it appears you don't understand your class in this regard.

1) You do not have to pick FDCL and DI. That's a choice, and very much depends on fight what is best. Personally, I'd prefer to stay away from 2 proc-based talents, and both of those provide a more or less stable amount of burst (if looking at multiple minute fight) compared to something like PI or MB.
2) You (and others) complain about no DPS during movement, but we got that: SWP, those 2 proc based talents (which you apparently take both). The problem is A) other classes simply do more burst dmg (no, 3 orbs is burst damage in PvP but does not come close to the burst damage other classes are able to put out). B) single target damage is too low compared to other classes as can be seen on e.g. Heart of Fear first 2 bosses. C) our AoE / Mind Sear damage is shit compared to every other class (see 4th boss Heart of Fear).
3) As for off healing? Ele and boomkin can do that as well. I agree someone saying compare to those hybrids and not pure DPS classes, but what you're going to do then is compare those CDs of utility. VE: ele and boomkin also have healing CDs. Dark Binding: boomkin has a similar glyph. Boomkin burst damage and AoE burst damage is however simply better, and works both on stuff spread as well as stacked.
4) Mind Flay has its use (with and without glyph). Fight-dependent. It is however a filler, and when you don't use it that is generally good since you got DPS gain from your procs. If you want to use Mind Flay more (why?) then don't pick FDCL and DI. Go with one of those, or none of those.
5) Everyone's DPS improves if they get more gear. The point made is that shadow scales less good with gear compared to other classes such as for example mage and warlock.

Here is discussion where stuff like "just buff Mind Flay" is discussed http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...w-Priest-feels and you cannot just "buff Mind Flay" since it'd imbalance the T3 talents (it'd nerf FDCL). Here also was suggested a way to start out with 3 orbs when the raid boss starts which should not affect PvP too much, if at all.

Mindflay while running! that would be nice

PvP result: running quickly to your enemy with movement speed increase (glyph) or they slowed by 50% while you're running towards them.

[...]

One thing I really find enjoyable right now with shadow in this expansion is the ability to switch talents on a fight by fight basis that allows and if they made FDCL a better choice on movement based fights and MB better on light movement/ultrax I'm fine with that.

I very much agree! Not only talents, also glyphs. The fact we do this a lot means the talent system is well tuned (OK, except for SWI and PI which are meh). Something seemingly simple as buffing Mind Flay would change this, and would take away fun for me. And even though our DPS isn't that great (which is a problem on some fights), I enjoy the MoP spriest.

I'm sorry, I hate to be the guy who just doesn't sip the "ship is sinking, woe-is-me, SPriests are terrible and Blizz doesn't give a fuck" Kool-aid, but I just don't understand this notion that SPriests are mathematically inferior in their current incarnation. If we were mathematically inferior, we wouldn't get brought to raids. Period. We're not Sub Rogues, we're not MM Hunters.

[...]

I quit reading here. In this whole discussion people are comparing 10m, 25m, normal, heroic, arena, and what not.

Now, you bring it to a next level by comparing one spec of a pure DPS class. Shadow is the only DPS spec. Shadow is bad on a certain fight? You have a problem. You're sitting out, you're on your alt, you're going to heal. People who play a pure DPS class can respec to one of the other 2 specs. So if MM or arcane or sub isn't viable, they still have SV, BM, mutil, combat, fire, frost. Oh wait, all those specs are viable and used in raiding.

[Volitar]

I blame pvp for the lack of changes to Shadow. They are just so hesitant to give anything to a class that is already so strong in pvp in the middle of a season. I am in no way saying Shadow is bad or nonviable because that is just untrue.

Also I would like to say that as this tier has gone on I have noticed some glaring holes within our talent tree. Shadow Word: Insanity is pretty bad and only gets worse. I also don't like like the level 75 talent choices either. I feel like Tof is way too strong to be compared to the other two. I would like to see ToF become baseline and have Power Infusion be redesigned to give a special shadow only effect (like Power Word: Solace) as well as a new talent take the place of ToF.

Just my opinion .

[Relapses]

I quit reading here. In this whole discussion people are comparing 10m, 25m, normal, heroic, arena, and what not.

Now, you bring it to a next level by comparing one spec of a pure DPS class. Shadow is the only DPS spec. Shadow is bad on a certain fight? You have a problem. You're sitting out, you're on your alt, you're going to heal. People who play a pure DPS class can respec to one of the other 2 specs. So if MM or arcane or sub isn't viable, they still have SV, BM, mutil, combat, fire, frost. Oh wait, all those specs are viable and used in raiding.

This tier, there aren't any fights where Shadow performs so poorly that we're better sitting. The point of the analogy I made (and this point still remains) is that we are not being sat because of poor overall class performance. Could it be better? Yes, and there are a lot of really good suggestions on how to improve it in this thread. Is it as game breaking, soul-crushingly awful as some people make it out to be? Nope.

[Deleted]

Oh and something else please Blizzard fix these goddamn apparitions its like Warmaster all over. On second boss in HoF they just stand there like retards doing nothing during unseen strike stealth and afterwards. I understand they don't run to the boss who's stealthed, but once he unstealthed they should behave like "he's there, go get em!"

Playing a mesmer casually in GW2 I much prefer the "execute" mechanic of the illusions in this game where you have 4 choices (each with different CD and utility) to use your clones (illusions). I also like how on this game you can put emphasis on different aspects of your class like your illusions or your DoTs. You can pick either one of them. However right now the apparitions play little role in shadow, and I'd say that's OK barring these bugs.

i being doing the rank 7 "curator" trying to burn the boss ignoring the mechanic and is nearly imposible im 500 ilv pulling 120k on pull, using vampiric embrace for first aoe, but the 2nd aoe forces me to heal myself, and enrage got me at 500k hp left, and if you try to dps moving so u can not proc the mines your dps will drop to the point you get enrage, i was doing the try with only self buffs and arcane brilliance, guess i need some RNG lucky and some mastery and stats buff on me to beat that 500k HP short, im using mindbender and power infusion to burst the first phase with pot, by the time the first explosion happens and he recast the mines hes 60% for me, but the big problem is when u need to heal urself 2 times in the fight.

I think there's already a topic on Brawlers Guild but what I've been doing is playing around with glyphs (not taking MS glyph). I've managed to get him to 10% without reaching enrage instead refusing to heal myself, just getting killed. Some suggestions: get 3 orbs before pull. Don't queue before you got 3. Yeah, it sucks (hello Cata boomkin how are you doing?), but so be it. Join a raid group to get full buffs. Do not heal yourself with flash heal as it costs too much time. Time your dispersion instead, time your VE, and use healthstone. I also abused ToF to get it procced on myself with renew. The reason I believe I have not killed him is because I cannot be bothered to get those 3 orbs, wait in queue, and be in a raid group. Because while I don't have an addon for enrage timer, I'm pretty sure I had him there, with also dispersion on CD for enrage.

I imagine with equal gear an elemental shaman would have it easier on this boss: their burst is higher (can line it up with pot), they don't need 3 orbs. Their weakness is their self heals (tho they have a similar CD as VE) but they do not leave shadowform and can pop their heals during a phase where they cannot burst. Since my shaman alt is about ilvl 480 but gemmed for main spec resto I can't compare but it boils down to more burst means more time to do mediocre DPS before enrage.

Something else: challenge modes. While we've achieved gold with little practice (it is funny how some say X is hard and then you just 2-shot it) what was apparent is I am generally unable to top the meters on challenge modes, and I have to DPS (with our healer being an rdruid). I remember the first packs on shado-pan monastry our hunter was SV here popping a solid 300k AoE damage, with me only able to do 200k and having to use fade in start. I was using ToF, mind sear, pre-pot, and divine star here (post-buff), and VE for off-healing. Some other interesting observations: in challenge modes dispersion was mostly used for getting mana back, void shift is a plain awesome CD in challenge modes, PW:S with B&S is great to pop on tank and while VE is a good CD it isn't unique anymore (druids and shamans have something similar), I had more mana issues than the resto druid...

---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 08:01 AM ----------

This tier, there aren't any fights where Shadow performs so poorly that we're better sitting. The point of the analogy I made (and this point still remains) is that we are not being sat because of poor overall class performance. Could it be better? Yes, and there are a lot of really good suggestions on how to improve it in this thread. Is it as game breaking, soul-crushingly awful as some people make it out to be? Nope.

Do you play 10m or 25m? In 25m I can imagine you wouldn't have to sit out, but on 10m on the first bosses in HoF you're getting either carried, you're going to sit out, or you're going to play your off spec (which is what I am doing, disc being very strong on all these 4 fights). That said, I haven't done anyhing in ToeS on heroic. Now, about those 4 bosses a few simple facts: it is 4 out of 6 bosses in one raid; a significant amount. Shadow is the only DPS spec for the player. As I said its more of an issue in 10m (a lot of people comment in this thread about all kind of different playgrounds). It is these factors together which make it a problem.

[Relapses]

Check my signature. I raid 25s on the SPriest, 10s on my Ele Shaman. My 10M guild actually uses 2 SPriests and neither of them have difficulties pulling their weight. We have a 14-player roster in the 10M guild and haven't found any reason to bench either one of them. (They'll sit, but not because of performance.) You cannot speak for all 10M guilds when you make blanket statements like "you're getting carried for {x} fights."

[Deleted]

Your sig says you're in Recursion. There's no logs from them, but it seems you swapped guilds. I looked up your logs on your Blade Lord kill. You're melee heavy, did not have a lock or boomkin, and your mage is doing low damage (post-nerf on combustion it will be hard for fire mages to get ranked, but the damage is still low even post-nerf). And your shadow priest is a blood elf. If I was playing horde, I sure as hell would be troll if my MS was shadow. Are you sure their MS is shadow and remaining shadow? Other than that 1 fight there was nothing of relevance to what I asserted since you only killed Blade Lord once and that's the only fight you killed on heroic in HoF.