Lor'themar proves the Blood Elves are untrustworthy

[Deleted]

Blood Elves =/= High Elves.

For the love of god, can someone please make this distinction.

Not =/=

Just =

[Scummer]

Blood Elves =/= High Elves.

For the love of god, can someone please make this distinction.

Not in terms of their history. There is no distinction between the two until the split because there was only one race.

The titles a bit too blunt for my liking.
As a race they are kinda untrustworthy as they have a history of entering and leaving alliances at a moments notice, there is no question about it. However you need to take this with a grain of salt as these are not malevolent betrayals as the Forsaken do.
Their own arrogance and selfishness aside, they've always left and recommitted to alliances for the better of their people. They're also a race that want's to be an independent race (Due to their own arrogance about their superiority) but has never been able to achieve this due to threat from all sides, now they're so few this goal of theirs may never happen.

---------- Post added 2012-12-01 at 09:07 AM ----------

You are... missing alot of pieces. They moved away from the Alliance army as they didn't aim to defend Quel'Thalas, so they sent people back to defend while others stayed with the Alliance army.

Them leaving after the Second War really was another case of them victimising themselves by their own arrogance and selfishness. Which is what they do a lot.
There were enough Alliance forces there to deal with the Horde. However the plan was get the Elves to help, of which they didn't initially until Alleria forced them to see what was on their doorstep - of which the Humans were now defending for them due to their arrogance.
Add to this the fact they didn't commit in the first place because they didn't want to believe that such a threat existed. Another case of their arrogance biting them in the arse.

You really can't blame the Humans at all for the High Elves loss in the Second War. They brought it upon themselves.

[Eon Drache]

History of the blood elves...
-Losing a fight against the trolls, humans help, blood elves teach them magic and owe them a debt.
-Orcs attack humans. Blood elves dont think its a problem, send a small force to repay their debt, get owned by orcs, THEN decide to send an actual, sizeable army.
-Lordaeron gets owned by scourge. Blood elves dont help cause its not their problem
-Quel'thalas gets owned by the same scourge. Blood elves crawl back to what remains of the alliance.
-Garithos makes Blood Elves ally with Naga, and kicks them out cause of this. Remember, every other alliance member but those with Garithos think the Blood Elves had no reason to ally with Naga.
-Blood elves go to the Horde because their almost extinct.

So, yea. There kinda douchebags.

What humans gained from the troll wars, they owed no debt after this point between then and the first war;

The humans had the largest gains of the war: they were united and they gained a debt of gratitude from the only force able to threaten them. They were initiated into the arts of magic, their technology was greatly improved and inspired by the elves (some claim the elves taught them the art of metalsmithing, though it is more likely they knew of that before the war). They also became the greatest power on the continent and were able to spread in every direction with almost nothing in their way.

[Deleted]

Seems somebody forgot to include a vital point into Blood Elves joining the Alliance.

SPOILER because this is further down the new 5.1 questline.

After the talk with Loth'remar, which the OP mentioned as a point for being betrayers (and some more rep grind); Garrosh orders Sunreavers of Dalaran to open a portal to infiltrate Darnassas, in order to retrive the Devine Bell.
Soon however, Jaina, now leader of Kirin Tor, soon sniffs them out and along with Quel'dorei (who are already in cahoots with Alliance, due to Venessa Windrunner) attempts to execute them for breaking their "neutrality". After rescuing the Sunreavers from cruel fate, Dalaran ultimately becomes part of the Alliance.

And I'm pretty sure at this point, the word of Horde's another trecherus act will reach other alliance leaders. I hardly think anyone will want to take the Blood Elves back into Alliance. Now, they're left with no other fate but to be doormat for Garrosh and his cronies.

[Scummer]

What humans gained from the troll wars, they owed no debt after this point between then and the first war;

The humans had the largest gains of the war: they were united and they gained a debt of gratitude from the only force able to threaten them. They were initiated into the arts of magic, their technology was greatly improved and inspired by the elves (some claim the elves taught them the art of metalsmithing, though it is more likely they knew of that before the war). They also became the greatest power on the continent and were able to spread in every direction with almost nothing in their way.

Humans were united before the Troll Wars. It was because they were united and strong that the High Elves sought them as allies.
I've heard nothing about Elves teaching Humans in the form technology, we know they had basic understanding of such things at the time. If anything the in-game book The Seven Kingdoms indicates that it was the Dwarves that taught the Humans how to better their metal craft and introduce them to technology. The Elves taught them magic and that's as far as we know and have been told.

The fact the Humans prospered doesn't change the debt they owe them

[Combatbutler]

History of the blood elves...

Arrival in the easter Kingdoms, settling in Lordaeron, leaving to the north because something drove them mad, establishing Quel'thalas, shortly afterwards Trolls attack, the elves beat them. Trolls plot their revenge for several thousand years studying their new enemy, then they unleash the troll wars.

-Losing a fight against the trolls, humans help, blood elves teach them magic and owe them a debt.

The elves save the magi of Dalaran, by establishing the order of Tirisfal with them.

-Orcs attack humans. Blood elves dont think its a problem, send a small force to repay their debt, get owned by orcs, THEN decide to send an actual, sizeable army.

The blood elves weren't owned, their borderlands were burning, Silvermoon and the vast majority of their Kingdom remained untouched. Elves repay all their debts in full by helping the Alliance, from this point onward elves and humans owe nothing to each other.

-Lordaeron gets owned by scourge. Blood elves dont help cause its not their problem

Elves still fight for the Alliance through Dalaran, though not officially, including the very crown prince

-Quel'thalas gets owned by the same scourge. Blood elves crawl back to what remains of the alliance.

Because Dar'khan betrayed them and Arthas pretty much bypassed all of their defences.

-Garithos makes Blood Elves ally with Naga, and kicks them out cause of this and because he hated everything non human. Remember, every other alliance member but those with Garithos think the Blood Elves had no reason to ally with Naga.
-Blood elves go to the Horde because they need help to reach Outland .


So, yea. There kinda douchebags.

Tweaked the major points a bit.

---------- Post added 2012-12-01 at 12:49 PM ----------

Blood Elves =/= High Elves.

For the love of god, can someone please make this distinction.

They have the very same history, they are after all only divided by political views.

---------- Post added 2012-12-01 at 12:54 PM ----------

And I'm pretty sure at this point, the word of Horde's another trecherus act will reach other alliance leaders. I hardly think anyone will want to take the Blood Elves back into Alliance. Now, they're left with no other fate but to be doormat for Garrosh and his cronies.

Varian Wrynn seems to disagree, since he has quite a disagreement with Jaina later on.

[Jawless Jones]

High Elves are the same elves from before the invasion of Quel'Thalas by the Scourge that survive to this day, feeding on the mana from arcane items, who did not follow on Kael'Thas footsteps, remaining mostly on Dalaran. The Blood Elves are different because they followed Kael'Thas' teachings, and drained items from magical items from Outland, items enchanted with fel magic, which proved to not only be quite addicting to them, but also changed the glow of their eyes from blue to green. Yeah, that's quite a distinction.

high elves AND blood elves are the same elves from before the invasion of Quel'thalas... its not like the blood elves just popped out of thin air...

also before kael'thas went crazy ALL HIGH ELVES WERE CALLED BLOOD ELVES, this is because Kael'thas renamed the entire race (yup he was the leader, he can do that) in honor of their fallen kin and homeland

some newly named blood elves (and ones who didnt know about it coz they joined jaina in her exodus from lordaeron) chose to keep/change their name to high elves following kael'thas' return from outland and those chose "their integrity over their wellbeing" (a quote from Li Li's travel journey) and most devolved into wretched (proved by the fact wretched in eversong have blue eyes not green, although wretched who are feeding on fel crystals in MGT do have green eyes)

any "High Elves" who didnt devolve into wretched sponged mana off of human mages (see; Dalaran and Theramore) and chose to turn their backs on their homeland and surviving people

and to the OP when the High elves left the Alliance pre-Scourge there was a triangle of bigotry and intense mistrust between the humans, dwarves and elves which is explained in Lord of the Clans, and is the reason for the elves to leave the Alliance (because it isnt really an 'Alliance' if no one trusts eachother) and the threat of the Scourge is enough for anyone to come crawling back to any potential allies

on a side note im surprised any High Elven groups such as the Silver Covenant want to be part of Dalaran, seeing as how the Kirintor aided Garithos (by giving guards, antimagic cells and using their own warden to prevent escape) in the imprisonment and attempted execution of their crown prince and a sizable portion of their nearly extinct race...

[KrazyK923]

Not =/=

Just =

Wrong. Plain wrong.

They have the very same history, they are after all only divided by political views.

...which makes them two completely different factions. Surely you know this?

ALL HIGH ELVES WERE CALLED BLOOD ELVES

False. He called those that were willing to follow him to Outland Blood Elves

It didn't go Night Elves --> High Elves --> Blood Elves ---> High Elves

It went Night Elves --> High Elves --> Blood Elves

By the way, just because Kael decided to change the name to Blood Elves doesn't mean it happened to all High Elves. Before the Sunwell was cleansed, it was more than just politics, it was magical addiction-based. We don't even know if prolonged sucking of demon-energies changed their physiology in slight ways as compared to the High Elves.

[Stormdash]

They join the one Alliance during the Second War, abandon them, ironically get decimated by the Scourge, crawl back into the Alliance, ally themselves with evil beings, and when the small Alliance is destroyed, swear allegiance to the Horde, one of their former greatest enemies.

False on all major relevant facts. First of all, total Irony fail -- there was none related to their relationship with the Alliance and Arthas marching through Quel'thalas. The closest to ironic you'd get is that they were ever allies with that guy in the first place. Had they still been in the Alliance, two things would have remain unchanged -- a) Arthas would have still marched on the Sunwell and b) they'd have still been on their own.

And they allied themselves with the Naga to avoid being used as helpless cannon fodder by that same ad hoc version of the Alliance.

EDIT: "Blood elves" applied to EVERY Thalassian elf, it was coined long before Kael'thas ever went near Outland, it was a tribute to the slaughter of their countrymen. Those that currently call themselves "high elves" do so as protest of Kael'thas, at the expense of looking like they just don't care about what the Scourge did.

[davaalai10]

haha touche

[KrazyK923]

EDIT: "Blood elves" applied to EVERY Thalassian elf, it was coined long before Kael'thas ever went near Outland, it was a tribute to the slaughter of their countrymen. Those that currently call themselves "high elves" do so as protest of Kael'thas, at the expense of looking like they just don't care about what the Scourge did.

The ones who went with Kael called themselves Blood Elves.

The others didn't NOT because they didn't care about what the Scourge did. Not even sure where you're getting this from. They were not going along with Kael's "By any means" method of sating their Magical thirst.

Like I said, Kael can pretend to unilaterally rename all High Elves, but its clear there was a faction who did not agree with it and therefore are not Blood Elves.

They are High Elves. They have always been High Elves (At least since devolving from Night Elves).

[Stormdash]

The ones who went with Kael called themselves Blood Elves.

The others didn't NOT because they didn't care about what the Scourge did. Not even sure where you're getting this from.

Like I said, Kael can pretend to unilaterally rename all High Elves, but its clear there was a faction who did not agree with it and therefore are not Blood Elves.

They are High Elves. They have always been High Elves (At least since devolving from Night Elves).

Kael'thas was the rightful ruler of the people, he was de facto (and probably de jure) King, even if he didn't claim the title. And renaming them Blood Elves is certainly within that rightful authority, whether they choose to adopt it is up to them, but it would be like if Ohio changed its name to Brigadoon; that's what the thing is called now, the occupants of Quel'thalas were the Sin'dorei. It was as Sin'dorei that Kael'thas led his mission to Northrend -- again, long before ever setting foot in Outland.

What the 'high elves' are are expatriates, who parted ways over an ethical disagreement about how to survive without the Sunwell. Also, again, long before setting foot in Outland, long before M'uru. But at the time, "Children of the Blood" meant something completely benign and entire nationalist, and rejecting that name doesn't connote the protest vote they seem to think it does, it just connotes indifference. I suppose it's fitting, though, that the elves who reject the name honoring those that fell to the Scourge are tacitly led by Vereesa, who was nowhere to be found in the battle that took her sister, her king, and the Sunwell.

[KrazyK923]

I'm not sure how not taking up a new name and then not going to suck off demon energy with Kael'thas means they don't care about what happened to their homeland.

Sounds like just inserting personal faction bias.

[Zaelsino]

It's not like Theron woke up one morning and switched sides; talking with Varian was only on the table after Garrosh had shown (on multiple occasions) that he's willing to use his allies as expendable cannon fodder. And even then, there's a quest soon where Theron still tries to talk some sense into the guy, urging him not to emulate the mogu and warning him about what happens to rulers who use fear and cruelty to inspire loyalty. To which Garrosh basically says, "Shut your mouth."

Also, joining Thrall's Horde wasn't really a betrayal. Not only was Quel'Thalas neutral at that point, but there wasn't a war on anyway in TBC. There was simply more gain to be had in joining the reformed Horde than the post-Lordaeron Alliance... whose power bases are on the other side of the continent.

[Stormdash]

I'm not sure how not taking up a new name and then not going to suck off demon energy with Kael'thas means they don't care about what happened to their homeland.

Sounds like just inserting personal faction bias.

Yes, it does -- but the part where you're somehow marrying the name change to the much later and entirely unrelated fel energy thing.

[Wildtree]

Is that where we are right now? Anyone and everyone's a traitor?

The way I see it, unfortunately it's not possible in-game, the Orcs should be kicked out of the Horde.
Garrosh alienated every single of his allies. When you pay attention to the content of the dailies we do, I mean, I feel so horrible at times to execute those.
We're heroes, are we? We suppose to fight the greater evil. And here we are, on the beach, killing peasants who don't stand the least of a chance.
I don't feel like I am fighting someone, or something. I feel like a murderer right there.
Hell, even a stupid croc gives me more of a challenge than those innocent workers. They run and beg for their lives.
For what? For what am I doing this? To please a douche bag from Orgrimmar. A jerk who finally fell completely off grace and descent into madness?
I am not playing an Orc. I wish I could help the other side, times and again.
In a way I do it, to make sure my own leader keeps it's head on the shoulders.
That's also an ongoing thing already since arrival on Pandaria.. The horde side of the progression is a lot more aggressively driven.
Times and again one can feel so sorry for what we are doing to these people. They lived in a near paradise. And here we come, fucking everything up.


Nice job btw from Blizzard. First time since I can get some personal feel in my game play. I love it.

[KrazyK923]

Yes, it does -- but the part where you're somehow marrying the name change to the much later and entirely unrelated fel energy thing.

Its because they didn't qualify why all the High Elves who were not in Quel'thalas (Like the ones in Stormwind) did not changed their names as well in the lore. The reason for the split between High and Blood Elves was entirely about Fel energy.

Yes, all the ones in Quel'thalas did. I should clarify that I am not disputing this fact.

But just think about it, should the High Elves who heard about what happened in Quel'thalas really be blamed for not returning to their homeland? It was annihilated by the Scourge, and then the remnants joined what was left of Lordaeron's forces and then were betrayed. And then they come to find out that their Prince decided to go to Outland with Illidan and suck demon magics. At what point could they have realistically returned?

Post-destruction of Quel'thalas? Place was crawling with Undead.
Time between War3 and Frozen Throne? Place was crawling with Undead.
Post-Kael going to Outland? At that point they had a major philosophical difference.

The remaining High Elves are hardly traitors. Remember, news doesn't exactly travel super fast on Azeroth. Quel'thalas to Stormwind is a pretty far distance in this world.

[BHD]

In my opinion you can't really blame the Blood Elves for their actions, at least not the more recent ones. Sure, they've been very arrogant and didn't help the humans when they should've against the orcs, but everything after that I see as justified. They were victims of Garithos' racism and that eventually led to them pretty much being forced to look for outside help, and the Naga were the only ones there to help. Them joining the Horde instead of going back to the Alliance is justified as well, seeing how they were only met by hostility from the Alliance while the Horde offered aid and support. Really, out of those to choices, what would you choose? Lor'Themar actually considering going back to the Alliance in more recent times is what I'd expect from them. The Alliance shows that they're more open to diplomacy and Varian is doing his best to manage his anger, while Garrosh' Horde is pulling a Garithos on them and embrace anger as well as using fear to control people.

[Combatbutler]

...which makes them two completely different factions. Surely you know this?

It makes them two different factions, but they are still the very same people, all that separates them is their chosen name.There was a somewhat similar situation between east and west Germany. Which means they have the exact same history until ca 8-10 years ago.

[Zonas]

You know... it was the alliance that betrayed the blood elves. It was what pushed Kael into the arms of Illidain in the first place. Then when he went off to Outland to learn mana tap to aid his people in their addiction, Lor'themar used his power back in Azeroth to join with the horde. Though he did try to keep ties with the dwarves before hand, which turned out to be a bad idea.

The Blood elves have had no reason to hate the horde, they only fought them as high elves because they were allied with the alliance at the time. They only ever hated trolls, which they were able to distinquish from the Darkspear that Vol'jin is apart of.

Blood elves and High elves are the same people. At first, it was just a change in name when Kael did it to honor the fallen when the Sunwell was destroyed. BUt now, there is a difference since Blood elves are slightly corrupted due to their use of fel magic, hence the green eyes over the blue ones high elves had. Though, are there still any uncorupted high elves out there? Sort of like how, lore wise, there aren't any other black dragons except for Wrathion.