Why its bad/good to click?

[Kevyne-Shandris]

wow isint that hard game (pve wise) so that 0.1 sec which u gain while keybind isint that important, u can achieve same even with clicking

Especially today with 10000000000001 addons that make it pretty competitive to click.

For me I'm a much faster clicker than having to stop (yes, got to stop moving long enough to use CTRL+SHIFT+7) to cast a heal. Ain't stopping to appear kewl to people who like keybinds.

So far the justifications on using keybinds are:

1. IT'S KEWL!!!
2. Gladiators use it because they don't use addons (from the YouTube videos of a Holy paladin gladiator that's false, used Gladius/Recount/Dominos and no telling what else).
3. It's FASTER (than the default UI, sure!).
4. Can't cast 2 spells at once without them (like macros never existed with a button icon to click).

[Rinoa]

First of all, why on earth would you bind your heals to Ctrl+Shift+7? When I play my Restoration Shaman my main heals are on ARFTGHY57, and on my Disc/Holy priest on 1345RTGHY.

So far these are the justifications for using keybinds:

1: It is the only way that allows you to move your character without restrictions in tough situations where you have to either place targeting reticles on the ground while moving and turning at the same time, or doing simple things like never getting hit by Attenuation while keeping your full potential damage output.

2: It allows you to not look at your action bars at all on a reliable basis. Some cooldowns will have to be showed, but for all normal purposes you can hide your action bars and not notice a difference. Also saves more screen space!

3: Similar to number two, not having to click your skills also mean that you don't have to pay attention to the mouse pointer when it is in an unfavourable position on the screen. You can pay attention to it if you are targeting mobs that aren't tab-targetable at the time and so on - but if you do that then you are already looking at the most recent and most important event for your character. That's okay!

If you are a good clicker then using your skills fast isn't a problem in an MMO - but that isn't the issue. The issue is just how limiting it is in regards to doing other things.

I would highly appreciate it if you made some compelling arguments for why clicking is good instead of trying to redefine what clicking means so that it also means pressing keys on the keyboard, or just completely disregarding arguments that you cannot come up with a good counter to.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

It's kind of like the 'debate' in the USA about intelligent design vs Darwin's theory of evolution. The answer is so blindingly obvious that I don't understand why it's even a debate. =P

To me your argument is trying to justify all the flaws of the Big Bang theory just to be part of the status quo. We're already using hairbrained physics (String theory anyone?) in an effort to make it work (and let's not even get into the race to find the bisons to justify the existence of missing matter we can't detect). ^.^

[Rinoa]

To me your argument is trying to justify all the flaws of the Big Bang theory just to be part of the status quo. We're already using hairbrained physics (String theory anyone?) in an effort to make it work (and let's not even get into the race to find the bisons to justify the existence of missing matter we can't detect). ^.^

There is no status quo, there are theories backed up by mountains of evidence - evidence that will be thrown away as soon as someone or something can disprove it. It's the normal scientific process, keep what works and disregard what doesn't. It's a very simple concept that everyone uses in their daily lives.

[Tucci]

Clicking isn't as bad as everyone says. I click and I beat multiple key binders easy. That being said, clicking isn't always best. Like with healing. I cannot click and keep everyone alive. It just isn't doable. Tanking, I click my damage abilities but have my cds keybound. The same for dpsing on any toon. Click my core abilities and keybind my cds. Reason is that the cds are off the gcd. So, I do a mix of both. Purely clicking would be bad. Clicking is not doable for heals. It is doable for tanking And dpsing. Do I have problems moving and dpsing while clicking? Not one bit. In fact, I use the wasd keys to move, so keybinding while moving would prove hard for me.

Over all, it can be just as effective. People say "Well, you are slower then if you keybind". To that I just laugh in their face as I beat them. I do not click every game out there. Some I keybind. However, you really can click to dps in wow just fine and switch to a keybind when needed. So, just clicking is bad. Being able to switch between the two, ie clicking while staying still and keybinds while moving, really is good.

This is the problem with people who have been doing it for a long time. I remember when I used to click way back in the day, I thought I was just fine too. Not so. Like I've said before there's a difference between what you think is fine and reality. Reality is you will not be beating anyone who isn't a straight up beginner, in both pvp, dps or healing. You can't just bind a whole bunch of stuff randomly and say "Oh this is poo, I'm going back to clicking." You have to be smart about what and where you put certain abilities and then most importantly, YOU HAVE TO GET USED TO THEM. Once you do, you LITERALLY stop thinking about where stuff is. Beautiful muscle memory takes over and your fingers do the thinking for you.

All it takes is a quick google or forum search!!! A gazillion people telling you to bind can't be wrong. But beware, they're not always going to be as nice as someone like me . You're not special, clicking isn't better for you as oppose to binding, no matter how long you've been doing it. Put it this way...you beat a few people, you top dps in your guild, you think you're a good healer...well bind and you'll automatically be that much better. Also, play with veteran players who bind. They'll just show you. If you click and you're dps, you'll simply never max your dps out.

Also, UI's look much better and there's a lot more actual game to look at if you don't have to use the buttons on screen. By the way, binding isn't where you stop. You want to macro, macro, macro and also get used to modifiers if you really want to play well.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

First of all, why on earth would you bind your heals to Ctrl+Shift+7?

Well, if you spent some time away from the default UI you'd realize with addons you can have infinite key combos for all and every use you can imagine.

But the point was to use keys means you have to stop to use them. When your CTRL is for Vent; Shift is for another spell; ALT for yet another; and that ` key looks interesting to keybind to something else...you understand how quickly easy-to-use keybind keys when you have 5+ warriors on your back aren't available!

Why I click, as there's more abilities than there are easy/quick ways to keybind. It's actually faster to reach to the side of my healbox to heal, than trying to find a keybind key on the keyboard...especially when I have to heal on the move (which is more the norm these days).

[StationaryHawk]

For me I'm a much faster clicker than having to stop (yes, got to stop moving long enough to use CTRL+SHIFT+7) to cast a heal. Ain't stopping to appear kewl to people who like keybinds.

I can easily press any of my keybinds without having to stop moving.

Well, if you spent some time away from the default UI you'd realize with addons you can have infinite key combos for all and every use you can imagine.

Doesn't necessarily mean they're efficient combinations to use. You know, like those combinations which require you to stop moving.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

There is no status quo, there are theories backed up by mountains of evidence

Science 101: theories aren't facts. Theories are ideas that still need to be proven.

The click vs. keybind debate is competing theories of comfort vs performance, but in the end preferences.

---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 12:17 AM ----------

I can easily press any of my keybinds without having to stop moving.

CTRL+SHIFT+7?

Not.

[Rinoa]

If you have 5 of any DPS spec on you and you're alone you will never survive unless they absolutely horrible. Anyways, I skate by fine with my keybinds and I don't even use that many. Overall in my gameplay, both PvP and PvE across all my alts and main I use no more than 90. Some Ctrl modifiers, some Alt modifiers and some Shift modifiers. Those are mainly used for things I don't use very often. Muscle memory really does the work, you don't even have to think about where the keys are after a while, just as you probably don't constantly look at your keyboard when typing things. It's just intuitive.

Also, why did you say Ctrl+Shift+7 if you really meant some macro performed by a mouse/keybard key that just let you press a single key to get that effect? I could macro Ctrl+Alt+Shift+P to my G1 key and it's still just be a keybind on the G1 key. Don't try to overcomplicate things in order to achieve a dramatic effect.

[StationaryHawk]

CTRL+SHIFT+7?

I don't have anything bound to CTRL+SHIFT+7. Never needed to.

[Tucci]

Well, if you spent some time away from the default UI you'd realize with addons you can have infinite key combos for all and every use you can imagine.

But the point was to use keys means you have to stop to use them. When your CTRL is for Vent; Shift is for another spell; ALT for yet another; and that ` key looks interesting to keybind to something else...you understand how quickly easy-to-use keybind keys when you have 5+ warriors on your back aren't available!

Why I click, as there's more abilities than there are easy/quick ways to keybind. It's actually faster to reach to the side of my healbox to heal, than trying to find a keybind key on the keyboard...especially when I have to heal on the move (which is more the norm these days).

You alternate running with your mouse and W, strafe with your keyboard, turn with your mouse and hit all your abilities bound to your keyboard and mouse while looking at the game and glancing at your raid frames. There's no reason to stop and no reason to look at anything but what you should be looking at which is NOT abilities. There's a reason why keybinds exist. It's not because they're "cool" it's because they're shortcuts and make it much easier to play the game.

[Rinoa]

Science 101: theories aren't facts. Theories are ideas that still need to be proven.

the·o·ry

[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]
noun, plural the·o·ries.1.a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonlyregarded as correct, that can be used as principles ofexplanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein'stheory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.




Gravity is a theory. Relativity is a theory. Electromagnetism is a theory. Evolution is a theory. I think you are confusing the words theory and hypothesis. Common mistake.

---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 06:23 AM ----------

When your CTRL is for Vent; Shift is for another spell; ALT for yet another; and that ` key looks interesting to keybind to something else

This is just an example of extremely poor choices of keys to bind things to.

[glycerethe]

You need to look and aim to click, and takes up your screen space the more you click, keybindings can be hidden, and it doesn't require your eyes to pay attention, it's just like playing a piano, you look at your score sheet, not your piano keys.

[darkwarrior42]

1. IT'S KEWL!!!
2. Gladiators use it because they don't use addons (from the YouTube videos of a Holy paladin gladiator that's false, used Gladius/Recount/Dominos and no telling what else).
3. It's FASTER (than the default UI, sure!).
4. Can't cast 2 spells at once without them (like macros never existed with a button icon to click).

How about: "With keybinding, I can use the mouse to turn my character at any speed I want, including doing instant 180 turns to facilitate quick movements and evasive maneuvers, particularly since I'm a hunter and can use such quick turns combined with disengage to go any direction I want... and can do all this while continuing to use any of my abilities, because all of my abilities are accessible by keybinding. However, if I click my abilities the only way I can move is with the standard keyboard turning, which is far slower and less efficient and precludes the use of any such maneuver."

The point here is that if you're using the mouse to activate an ability, you cannot simultaneously use it to turn, which means to turn while activating the ability you must use the keyboard... and it is indisputable fact that keyboard turning is slower than mouse turning. (Whether or not that matters is debatable of course... but at least on my hunter, I cannot function anywhere near as efficiently with keyboard turning.)

(I do use click casting for healing abilities and other abilities I cast on allies, but that's largely a matter of ease of targeting. If I keybind the heal, I still have to target somehow, which means either additional keybinds for targeting or using the mouse to target... the former is impractical at best in many situations, and if I'm going to use the mouse to target anyways I might as well make that same motion cast the spell.)

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Gravity is a theory. Relativity is a theory. Electromagnetism is a theory. Evolution is a theory. I think you are confusing the words theory and hypothesis. Common mistake.

They're accepted as a current means of EXPLANATION, they are not facts.

If you lived in Newton's day, you would be standing there defending Newton's theories, despite 200 years later Newton was out and Relativity was in. 200 years from now another explanation will replace Relativity, as explanations change, facts do not.

---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 12:28 AM ----------

How about: "With keybinding, I can use the mouse to turn my character at any speed I want, including doing instant 180 turns to facilitate quick movements and evasive maneuvers, particularly since I'm a hunter and can use such quick turns combined with disengage to go any direction I want..

Already do that with clicking.

[Tucci]

You need to look and aim to click, and takes up your screen space the more you click, keybindings can be hidden, and it doesn't require your eyes to pay attention, it's just like playing a piano, you look at your score sheet, not your piano keys.

Hey that's my analogy!! I quoted it again earlier in this thread but no one like it I guess.

[StationaryHawk]

If you lived in Newton's day, you would be standing there defending Newton's theories, despite 200 years later Newton was out and Relativity was in. 200 years from now another explanation will replace Relativity, as explanations change, facts do not.

There is no status quo, there are theories backed up by mountains of evidence - evidence that will be thrown away as soon as someone or something can disprove it. It's the normal scientific process, keep what works and disregard what doesn't. It's a very simple concept that everyone uses in their daily lives.

The funny thing is, you're actually the first person who used the word "facts". Rinoa simply claimed that they have evidence to back them up.

[Rinoa]

They're accepted as a current means of EXPLANATION, they are not facts.

If you lived in Newton's day, you would be standing there defending Newton's theories, despite 200 years later Newton was out and Relativity was in. 200 years from now another explanation will replace Relativity, as explanations change, facts do not.

I never presented them as facts, so that's okay. And no, Newton was right. He invented integral differential calculus in order to explain why planets orbit in ellipses and not circles, it's called Newton's laws of motion, Newton's laws of cooling et cetera. I can link you to some great websites which explain this if you'd like.

In your defence though, no one is perfect and advances are made every day. Things we think we know now may be changed many years down the line due to new information. However, disputing things like gravity, relativity, electromagnetism and evolution at this point is a bit silly. It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt time and time again.

Though I do not understand how this has anything to do with keybinding? If you'd like to debate physics with me I'd be happy to do so in another thread.

[darkwarrior42]

Already do that with clicking.

How do you simultaneously activate an ability with the mouse and use the mouse to turn? (Note: Quickly clicking the ability than moving your mouse somewhere else to facilitate turning doesn't count, as that is not simultaneous)

[Aquamonkey]

the·o·ry

[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]
noun, plural the·o·ries.1.a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonlyregarded as correct, that can be used as principles ofexplanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein'stheory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.




Gravity is a theory. Relativity is a theory. Electromagnetism is a theory. Evolution is a theory. I think you are confusing the words theory and hypothesis. Common mistake.

I love Feynman.