Should father have any say about abortion?

[skrump]

childcare (very expensive if it's a daycare)
doctor visits (yes, your child support CAN be applied toward this and counted). Kids have a lot of doctor visits, especially for vaccinations and such.
school. school supplies need to be re-purchased yearly and are somewhat expensive.
toys. no, not spoiling them senseless, not buying the $500 toys. just something for them to have.
furniture. kids kinda need a bed. dressers are nice too. and a crib, starting out. and a changing table. diaper genies are almost necessary (hell, scratch the almost if you're a single parent). playpens.
"training" supplies - potty training, walkers, bouncers.
traveling supplies - carseats. strollers.

none of this is cheap, a lot has to be upgraded fairly often.

School supplies = Go to walmart and get them $35 should cover the entire year
Toys = $300 a year tops ($200 of which is dedicated to a single big gift such as a bike or ps3)
Furniture = Second hand stores
Clothing = no name brands
As for the traveling supplies, kids outgrow them so quickly it's very easy to find used ones for less than half the cost of new ones.

Then again I grew up in a low income household so I am relatively accustom to knowing how to get the most for my $ without frivolous spending.

[semaphore]

The section you quoted in your previous post had nothing to do with an unintended pregnancy or the best interest of both parties.
I'll quote myself to refresh your memory.

I honestly don't see what point you are trying to make here now. I've stated multiple times that I think a man should be able to opt out of these obligations. My point remains that the idea that women aren't taking responsibilities of pregnancies is asinine.

http://antipornfeminists.wordpress.c...h-pornography/
Somehow it's degrading to women to be put in the light they are in pornographic movies/pictures, yet it's not degrading to men because " male sexuality is predicated on cruelty, coercion and degradation", so those men are right where they belong.

Yeah because it's not like there are many more feminists who sees nothing wrong with porn. Like, I don't know, all those feminist porn stars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddgkEg2XSA

"As a feminist I believe in legal, social, political and economic equality for women with men."

Yeah that's totally such a horrible thing to say. Clearly she wants to subjugate all women. Down with equality?

Do I need to start pointing out the flaws in this very famous and active feminist?
She is biased by the vagina between her legs and so are most feminists.

The picture of an independent women that can stand on her own two legs aren't what feminists today stand for.
They want more rights than men because we've treated them badly in the past .
But that's all there is, vengeance. Do you believe that all Germans are Nazis and Jew haters as well?
I'm not gonna go further into feminism than this, I don't want this thread to derail.

So really so far you've not actually made any real argument against feminists, beyond "but look they're evil".

---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 08:11 AM ----------

I keep agreeing with you, and you keep trying to argue with me... why?!

Sorry, please don't take anything I say personally. It's generally directed at an idea than the poster per se. That or I really am lactating and pregnant >_>

However, I support equality, so I don't see how we aren't disagreeing.

My statement about special treatment was a broad one relating to feminism in general, which was quite clear in my post.

Don't see how that makes any difference. What special treatment for women am I demanding as a feminist?

But these Woman don't take care of their children! That's the point.

Then as I said I support not keeping children with bad parents. But it's a separate issue to child support and should be dealt with accordingly.

[Vanyali]

School supplies = Go to walmart and get them $35 should cover the entire year
Toys = $300 a year tops ($200 of which is dedicated to a single big gift such as a bike or ps3)
Furniture = Second hand stores
Clothing = no name brands
As for the traveling supplies, kids outgrow them so quickly it's very easy to find used ones for less than half the cost of new ones.

Then again I grew up in a low income household so I am relatively accustom to knowing how to get the most for my $ without frivolous spending.

I work at wal-mart.

$35 won't cover the entire year. It won't even cover a backpack and clothes. Try more like $60-80 per kid, depending what they need.

Baby toys are expensive. And somewhat critical. And expensive. Once they get older? Sure, it'll drop a bit, especially if they're not getting that super-huge purchase that year (a big $200 gift a year... not necessary.)

Second hand furniture is still expensive when you have to buy a crib, toddler bed, then a kid's bed (and maybe an adult bed, depending on how big the kid gets).

No-name brand clothing still adds up like crazy. $2.88 per shirt for our least expensive. Shirts go 0-3, 3-6, 6-18, 18-24 for infants. So every three months (at least) you get a new wardrobe, which is going to be more than $5.66 for one pair of pants and a shirt. Plus seasonal stuff if they outgrew it. Plus diapers. Plus shoes. Socks. Underwear.

Travelling supplies are iffy and area dependent. Yes, if you know someone/ find a good deal they're cheaper. If you can't, they're more expensive. But we're still talking a decent investment per seat especially if you're on a tight budget.

[semaphore]

School supplies = Go to walmart and get them $35 should cover the entire year
Toys = $300 a year tops ($200 of which is dedicated to a single big gift such as a bike or ps3)
Furniture = Second hand stores
Clothing = no name brands
As for the traveling supplies, kids outgrow them so quickly it's very easy to find used ones for less than half the cost of new ones.

Then again I grew up in a low income household so I am relatively accustom to knowing how to get the most for my $ without frivolous spending.

It's almost like loving parents don't want to get the best they can afford for their (especially when first) children.

[Deleted]

I want.....no I DEMAND science to give a solution to this .
In my opinion its all about choise and nothing more. The way things are today the male has none .
If the woman wants the baby and you dont ..your fucked...
If the woman doesnt want the baby and you do....your fucked again...

I am a male so i obviously can not even imagine what women have to deal with for nine months ( and even after ) so the entire 'my body , my choise ' makes sense . That being said however i see the objections of males as equaly valid. And since all these centuries of so called civilazation did nothing to help us reach the magic world of Consensus i say the hell with it, have a thrid party ( science) solve this.

Damn every time i see arguments like these with people yelling im right , you are wrong because i know better...i get more stupid by the minute....and i was not very smart to begin with.. have a nice day all.

[vindicatorx]

There are 3 threads within 25 top threads on this topic. Being pushed heavy...

always are multiple threads of the same topic people haven't asked an original question on here in ages

[skrump]

Well you need to be careful as well in over protecting the man. If all it takes to avoid paying child support is to say "I don't want it". Then there's going to be a lot of struggling solo mums out there. Remember, abortion isn't necessarily an option for everyone, as not everyone believes in it.

That is why the Man should only have that right until abortion is no longer an option the female herself can no longer take advantage of, not only that it should be a requirement that the women is informed if the man does decide to relinquish responsibility as it could potentially change her plans in getting an abortion.

Furthermore just because you do not believe in something doesn't make it any less real nor does it deny you from using it, you yourself deny you from doing it thus the responsibility for failing to do so lays entirely on your own shoulders.

That said I although think that once the child is born should either parent skip out that they should still be held financially accountable as long as the other parent is willing to share joint custody.
(If one parent is denied custody I see no reason why they should be forced to help the other parent support the child) though I wouldn't be totally against a mandatory collage fund being put in place for the child with the money that would otherwise help to support the child during adolescence.

[Terridon]

IMHO I find unbelieveably unfair that woman can have an abortion without the consent of the father (ignoring extreme cases like rape ofcourse).
But then again I'm not really for abortion at all so my opinion might not be the most objective one.
Women's excuse is that baby is part of their body and they can do what they want with it.

Thoughts?

Not your body. Learn to use condom if you have a problem with it :P
It's as logical as that a random girl can decide if you should have a child with her, and you have no say in the matter.

[Deleted]

I'm not even...god damn neckbeards.

<Infracted>

[Vanyali]

a random girl can decide if you should have a child with her, and you have no say in the matter.

...and i just got an image in my head of a raving crazy woman pointing at a guy saying "i chose you" and poofing out pregnant.

i really should go to bed.

[Niroshi]

...and i just got an image in my head of a raving crazy woman pointing at a guy saying "i chose you" and poofing out pregnant.

i really should go to bed.

TIL how people procreate in the Pokemon universe.

[Deleted]

IMHO I find unbelieveably unfair that woman can have an abortion without the consent of the father (ignoring extreme cases like rape ofcourse).
But then again I'm not really for abortion at all so my opinion might not be the most objective one.
Women's excuse is that baby is part of their body and they can do what they want with it.

Thoughts?

How is it unfair? The baby if unwanted by the woman is a parasite growing inside the woman, what do we do with parasites usually?

On the other hand I do believe that if a woman gets pregnant and chooses to keep the baby against the fathers will he would have no part in the babies life and this has to be stated early in the pregnancy. No money to pay to the woman, no right to socialize, no obligations towards the woman and the baby at all. I find it to be wrong to force someone who unwillingly became a father to be forced to pay money until the kid is 18.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

IMHO I find unbelieveably unfair that woman can have an abortion without the consent of the father (ignoring extreme cases like rape ofcourse).
But then again I'm not really for abortion at all so my opinion might not be the most objective one.
Women's excuse is that baby is part of their body and they can do what they want with it.

Thoughts?

If a women can chose to abort the baby or keep the baby, then the man should be able to chose whether to financially support it or not.

[Vuljatar]

For one, you're the one making attacks.

"It's like you can't comprehend the idea of not attacking or controlling women."

I consider that a personal attack.

The awful thing about a forced abortion isn't the abortion itself, it's the forced part.

Precisely. Exactly this.

Forcing a person that is alive and independent for the sake of something that is entirely dependent is NOT okay. You sacrifice the well-being (mental and physical) of a living human being that's in front of you for a fetus that's nothing more than a clump of rapidly cloning cells when your part finishes... not even a fetus at that point, but a collection of cells with fetus potential. But that utterly dependent, unborn cell has more rights than the person outside of it because it's "your" son/ daughter?

I wasn't saying that the fetus has rights, I was saying that aborting the fetus against the will of one of the parents is absolutely emotionally devastating to the parent. When either parent is intending for the baby to be born, they see it as their future child, not a fetus. From their viewpoint, aborting said fetus is murder. From a legal standpoint abortion is obviously not considered murder, nor should it be. But destroying a fetus that at least one parent intends to grow into a child is beyond reprehensible, not for the fetus itself but for the devastation you are wreaking on the other parent.

Except abortion is not killing a child. That you adopt whatever quasi-religious views that says it is, does not impose an obligation on anyone else to consider it from your perspective.

If you'd paid any attention at all to my posts you would see that I do not have a problem with abortion in general. I am, in fact, an atheist, and I support abortion legality. The awful thing about a forced abortion isn't the abortion itself, it's the forced part. And it is awful for the father, too.

You want the fetus after an abortion? Talk to her and perhaps they can have it arranged.

I missed this at first because you edited it in, now that I noticed it I wish I hadn't.

This is probably the most disgusting, reprehensible thing I have ever read on these forums. Put yourself in the father's shoes for just one damn moment. That is fucked up. I don't even know what to say. I'm done with this thread. You aren't the kind of person I will willingly communicate with any longer.

[semaphore]

I wasn't saying that the fetus has rights, I was saying that aborting the fetus against the will of one of the parents is absolutely emotionally devastating to the parent.
If you'd paid any attention at all to my posts you would see that I do not have a problem with abortion in general.

You're missing the point. Whatever emotional value you place on someone else's body part does not entitle you to control over it.

This is probably the most disgusting, reprehensible thing I have ever read on these forums. Put yourself in the father's shoes for just one damn moment. That is fucked up. I don't even know what to say.

Well actually I just meant that you're missing the point when you repeatedly insist that you have 50% rights to the fetus. You can't force somebody else to carry your stuff inside them. But yes I can see how that's disgusting when you try to visualise it.

[Vanyali]

TIL how people procreate in the Pokemon universe.

goddamn it if this appears in my dreams i'm going to have to hunt you down. and it probably will

[iggie]

should read:

man wanting woman to abort: fine
man FORCING woman to abort OR keep: not fine

you know. to keep with what's actually being said.

My view is if a man can't stop a woman from aborting he should be able to remove himself from child support if he doesn't want the child.

My VPN isn't working atm or I'd link a nice video series on youtube that explains the male rights movement and why men are shafted when it comes to anything with children. Abortion is no different.

Well actually I just meant that you're missing the point when you repeatedly insist that you have 50% rights to the fetus. You can't force somebody else to carry your stuff inside them. But yes I can see how that's disgusting when you try to visualise it.

If we as men have no rights to the fetus why must we be responsible for it after birth if it's unwanted?

[Wells]

The number of people in this thread who think they should get to tell a woman what to do with her uterus or sue her is pretty fucking astonishing.

[Vanyali]

My view is if a man can't stop a woman from aborting he should be able to remove himself from child support if he doesn't want the child.

My VPN isn't working atm or I'd link a nice video series on youtube that explains the male rights movement and why men are shafted when it comes to anything with children. Abortion is no different.

Most people in this thread have agreed that men should have a similiar time-frame (the time when women are legally able to abort) during which they can "abort".

Personally, on that, I'd be on that but with some sort of limit. A women's ability to abort is determined by her ability to get pregnant and recovering from the abortion. A man's would be solely on how many times he can put his dick in a woman and make a baby and doesn't carry the same emotional weight/ physical trauma.. but I suppose it's more fair. /shrug biology, whatcha gonna do?

[semaphore]

If we as men have no rights to the fetus why must we be responsible for it after birth if it's unwanted?

Do I have to make a sig out of the numerous times I've already said that I support giving men the option to opt out of parental responsibilities and rights?