Draenei Warlocks

[Granyala]

I've posted enough links in this thread. Search for yourself. If you don't want the RPG books to be canon or want to twist semantics, be my guest I don't care.

@Warlock popularity: I think it's quite obvious that I was talking about the theme of the class and not the actual gameplay / mechanics. Being a bad guy that summons demons appeals to many little kids that are tired of being the good guy. No offense towards the warlock community intended, i am speaking from a business PoV.

@MickM Sure you can justify everything somehow. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing when heaps of Draenei locks start running around. Because from a RP PoV, Individuals like my priestess or your lock would be a _very_ rare exception.

[Orange Joe]

I've posted enough links in this thread. Search for yourself. If you don't want the RPG books to be canon or want to twist semantics, be my guest I don't care.

@Warlock popularity: I think it's quite obvious that I was talking about the theme of the class and not the actual gameplay / mechanics. Being a bad guy that summons demons appeals to many little kids that are tired of being the good guy. No offense towards the warlock community intended, i am speaking from a business PoV.

@MickM Sure you can justify everything somehow. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing when heaps of Draenei locks start running around. Because from a RP PoV, Individuals like my priestess or your lock would be a _very_ rare exception.

So what you are saying is you hve no lore to back up your claim. You are only talking about what YOU think should be.

[Granyala]

So what you are saying is you hve no lore to back up your claim. You are only talking about what YOU think should be.

I have quoted enough. If you are either unwilling to accept it as canon or too lazy to actually read it, there is nothing I can do to persuade you.

In the end all this discussion is moot anyway, because if Blizzard thinks it'll bolster sub numbers when they introduce Draenei locks, they will proceed, do so and rape any existing lore to make it fit somehow.

Time will tell whether you get your wish or not.

[Thage]

Side note: the RPG books aren't canon. In Ask Creative Development Round 3, they confirmed that the RPG books were meant to be a self-contained AU and that you can take them as canon if the information is supported in other sources, with information not outright contradicted or supported is questionably-canon until debunked or supported.

[checking facts]

I have quoted enough. If you are either unwilling to accept it as canon or too lazy to actually read it, there is nothing I can do to persuade you.

RPG books are NOT canon, and even if they were, there's this:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Uncorrupted_warlock

"Uncorrupted warlocks are rare warlocks who do not suffer from arcane corruption: their alignments remain inviolate, unless they cast evil spells, and do evil deeds. Most young warlocks claim they know what they're getting into. They know about the seductive whisper of power and the strength of the Nether. They know of the crushing will of the demon lords and, most of all they know of the corruptive influence of warlock magic. They say it will not happen to them; they will not fall to evil, as have so many before them. Most of them are wrong. Most of them join the dark ranks of the creatures with which they traffic. Some few, though, are right. Some are strong enough to resist the will of the Legion and of the dark powers they wield; they, in turn, bend their wills to mastering demonic secrets while remaining immune to their taint. These are the uncorrupted warlocks, and they spread both distrust and hope wherever they go. Some few even announce themselves openly in the cities of the Horde or, rarer, the Alliance, and make their unique talents available to their affiliation."

so, with or without RPG books, you are wrong lol

[Orange Joe]

I have quoted enough. If you are either unwilling to accept it as canon or too lazy to actually read it, there is nothing I can do to persuade you.

In the end all this discussion is moot anyway, because if Blizzard thinks it'll bolster sub numbers when they introduce Draenei locks, they will proceed, do so and rape any existing lore to make it fit somehow.

Time will tell whether you get your wish or not.

You have not linked anything to prove your point. I'm not accepting it because there is nothing there.

[Sand Person]

Lorewise, they should have been able to play as a warlock.

how? they were never corrupted in the first place.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

I've posted enough links in this thread. Search for yourself. If you don't want the RPG books to be canon or want to twist semantics, be my guest I don't care.

@Warlock popularity: I think it's quite obvious that I was talking about the theme of the class and not the actual gameplay / mechanics. Being a bad guy that summons demons appeals to many little kids that are tired of being the good guy. No offense towards the warlock community intended, i am speaking from a business PoV.

@MickM Sure you can justify everything somehow. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing when heaps of Draenei locks start running around. Because from a RP PoV, Individuals like my priestess or your lock would be a _very_ rare exception.

But in the end it's a game and gameplay is more important. Lore and story should be there to support the gameplay.

And what with the Tauren Paladins, Undead Priests and Worgen and Goblin Deathknights, I do not see why this is any more weird.
As I said; we can fix it with class-specific quests and red skintones.

[Albert the fish]

But in the end it's a game and gameplay is more important. Lore and story should be there to support the gameplay.

And what with the Tauren Paladins, Undead Priests and Worgen and Goblin Deathknights, I do not see why this is any more weird.
As I said; we can fix it with class-specific quests and red skintones.

I'll take each individually.
Tauren for one never swore against the use of holy magics, they never really seemed to think about holy magic until the concept of sun magic started cropping up. Also they are a race, even if they had promised to never use holy magic simply using holy magic wouldn't make you no longer be a Tauren, you'd just be a different sect or tribe or faction of Tauren.

Undead priests are lorewise, almost exclusively shadow. This is not because the undead have a moral stance against holy magic it is because holy magic is difficult to operate and when it is used, it's painful since it hurts undead by its nature. Tere are some few holy/ discipline forsaken priests, but it is generally too much effort for them. Again however those fe holy priests that do exist don't magically stop being undead and the forsaken themselves don't have a moral stance against it so they don't exactly kick them out, they just look at them funny and wonder why they bother. Hence they can stay forsaken.

The worgen that rare death knights are previous minions of Arugal who never took any stance on unholy magics and also didn't have much of a choice in the matter. They were forced.

Goblins similarly never took any stance against unholy magics and were never given the choice even if they had, they were killed and raised as death knights like everyone else.

Draenei did take a stance on demonic magic that warlocks use, a strict one. No fel magic allowed. Because they are a sect or order or faction of a race. If their people use fel magic, they get kicked out of the clubhouse. They can stop being Draenei because it's just leaving a group. Same way orcs can leave the horde if they don't believe in the factions ideals. The horde and Orcish race are not the same thing, same way the Draenei and eredar race are not the same. One is based on ideals, if you don't share the ideals, you are not in that group. The other is based on biology, you cannot easily stop being what you were biologically.

[Granyala]

Draenei did take a stance on demonic magic that warlocks use, a strict one. No fel magic allowed. Because they are a sect or order or faction of a race. If their people use fel magic, they get kicked out of the clubhouse. They can stop being Draenei because it's just leaving a group. Same way orcs can leave the horde if they don't believe in the factions ideals. The horde and Orcish race are not the same thing, same way the Draenei and eredar race are not the same. One is based on ideals, if you don't share the ideals, you are not in that group. The other is based on biology, you cannot easily stop being what you were biologically.

Don't waste your time, they won't listen. They want playable Draenei warlocks and don't care about the lore implications. It's futile to argue with them.

As I said: implement Eredar that have gone rogue and want to use their knowledge against the legion, but leave the Draenei alone.

[checking facts]

Don't waste your time, they won't listen. They want playable Draenei warlocks and don't care about the lore implications. It's futile to argue with them.

As I said: implement Eredar that have gone rogue and want to use their knowledge against the legion, but leave the Draenei alone.

attacking people arguing against you does not make your arguments more convincing. we listen, we judge, we find it lore conservationism for the sake of "old good, no new".

[Granyala]

we find it lore conservationism for the sake of "old good, no new"

Yeah pretty much this. Some things should be consistent.... but go ahead and spam Blizzard with threads, they'll give in eventually.

[checking facts]

Yeah pretty much this. Some things should be consistent.... but go ahead and spam Blizzard with threads, they'll give in eventually.

except that lore conservationism takes us nowhere. would you have ever imagined 4 years ago that nowadays we would have dark iron dwarf NPCs fighting against the horde for the alliance in pandaria? the same dark iron dwarves who hated the ironforge dwarves, had warlocks, were allies with the twilight cult and served ragnaros are now NPCs from shieldwall.

if everything is always predictable, it gets boring. blizz tried to spice the draenei up a little with a couple of evil draenei pirates, but that wasn't nearly enough to get them interesting. blizz has to play more with the draenei-burning legion relationship and there's NOTHING that would do that better than a group of draenei warlocks earning the right of be in the exodar by velen (like broken shamans did before). xi'ri, a naaru, is now BFF with the locks anyway, he could convince velen

[Granyala]

Why does a race have to be evil to be interesting? I don't get it. (serious question)

[checking facts]

Why does a race have to be evil to be interesting? I don't get it. (serious question)

it's not about the race having to be evil for it to be interesting. the draenei race as a whole will not become evil just because there are some warlocks among them, else you could say humans, dwarves, gnomes and worgen are all evil bastards.

but here's the deal:

conflict is what makes stories interesting. all good stories have conflict to some degree. ariel wanted to be with prince eric, but her father didn't let her. that's conflict. while external conflict is interesting, internal conflict is way more interesting. that's why garrosh gets into fights with cairne, sylvanas and vol'jin right at the start of cataclysm, way before he was supposed to go villain. the closest thing to internal conflict the draenei ever had was when they didn't like shamans, and that time is gone. right now they are boring as a race because they are the "race of saints who fight against the evil legion with saintly methods of saints". having a small group of draenei warlocks saying "no, we're gonna fight fire with fire. we're gonna enslave demons and make them kill other demons. we are gonna banish their souls to the nether" and the others come like "no way, you can't, that's not our way" and the naaru say "let them do it, else we can't win the war" and velen says "ok, don't nobody kill the warlocks unless they mess up here" and than the guards say "ok, but we're still gonna be unpolite when they ask for directions" would be a pretty spicy storyline (obviously I simplificated it a bit )

[Speaknoevil]

No Draenei would ever wield fel magic(even if they could) after seeing Gul'dan and his followers dancing in the blood of their children.

40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6-C-_PJTa4

[Granyala]

Don't know. All that would happen would be excommunication. There is no way in hell Velen could convince his people to tolerate warlocks. Hell Shamans were hard to accept already.

I don't even think the Naaru themselves could convince the Draenei to tolerate warlocks. They'd just say: "No way we take the risk of one of them becoming corrupted." As you said yourself: Most of them fail miserably. Only very few achieve control.

[checking facts]

I don't even think the Naaru themselves could convince the Draenei to tolerate warlocks. They'd just say: "No way we take the risk of one of them becoming corrupted." As you said yourself: Most of them fail miserably. Only very few achieve control.

the draenei worship the naaru as holy beings of light almost as much as they worship the holy light itself. if the naaru tell them to feed on feces they will do so. if the naaru tell them to accept a handful of warlocks, they will do so, even if they aren't very fond of the idea.

[Drilnos]

If they look like Dreadlord's then fuck yeah. If they look like the same lame draenai, fuck no.

Dreadlords are Nathrezim. Draenei are uncorrupted Eredar. Not even remotely the same race.

---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 03:15 PM ----------

if a demon wants to eat me, I'll fight for my life. if I win, I get to eat him. if we tie, maybe we'll become friends, or maybe we'll become food to something else. than you know what happens? we come back in new bodies, because that's how demons roll.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Banish_the_Demons

"The problem with demons is that, once killed, they come right back in new bodies!"

to fight and kill and die and play and hunt and gamble and f*ck and eat and sleep whenever you want for whatever reason you want, everyday is exciting! the chaotic universe envisioned by the legion doesn't sound too bad.

"That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom. Meanwhile the cult, by appropriate rites, must keep alive the memory of those ancient ways and shadow forth the prophecy of their return."
- H.P. Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu

Yes, that sounds bad.

[Orange Joe]

Why does a race have to be evil to be interesting? I don't get it. (serious question)

Why does a race have to be absolutely good to be interesting? No one is saying the whole race turns evil.