There are currently more Retribution Paladins than Rogues.

[The Ogdru Jahad]

Rets are Blizzard's favourite child. Following vanilla and ever since (2006), they have been the most OP spec in the history of the game with the possible exception of WOTLK DK's. In fact, Rets qualify as one of the most OP specs in the history of MMORG's in general. Key abilities include:

-The longest stun in the World of Warcraft ever.
-Immunity to being kited.
-Bubble that make one completely immune to damage while still being able to attack.
-Abilities such as Lay On Hands that instantly restore one's health to 100%.
-Infinite Mana.
-Ability to use hearthstone (RECALL) while being bubbled.
-Excellent heals while dishing out excellent DPS with no penalty on their DPS.
-Excellent DPS cooldowns completely unsuited for a DPS/Healing hybrid such as Ret.
-Immunity to being griefed or ganked while out in the world questing. If you go one-to-one with a Ret you will lose, if you go two versus one against a Ret you will still lose, and if you try to go three to one against a Ret they will just bubble and hearthstone.
-Excellent in soloing Raid content.
-Fastest mount speed in the World of Warcraft.

Recent bonus abilities:

-Pet
-DOTS
-Snare
-An ability similar to Rogue ability Sprint
-Ranged execute
-Several Ranged DPS abilities

------------------------------------->With all the above in mind, it is not hard to see why there are more Rets than Rogues.

This entire post just screams of QQ. I can't even finish it without dying of bias-overload.

Rets are not OP. In fact, people cried like crazy because they were so weak for a good part of the game. It's even an ongoing joke as to WHY ret has historically been so weak. GC once answered that question by saying "a ret paladin killed his family".

[Zoma]

"In order to fix this problem, we will be making Retribution Paladins less fun."

[Shekita]

+1 for the argument "it's not about damage, it's about fun".

Rogues are boring now. It makes me sad. So many classes/specs have been revamped on how they are played be it with changes to spells, new spells, talents, talent changes. Rogue haven't changed much since TBC.

My other complaint is that they bring NOTHING to the table raid wise. Anything rogues can do, another class can do better.

Rogues need a revamp in playstyle. You would think the fact that a specific spec outnumbers a CLASS should be all the proof they need of this.

[xxf2dxx]

How did this thread turn into a comparison of ret vs rogues? The point was that a single CLASS SPEC has a larger player base than an entire class. Read it again since you all seem to be having an issue.

[Clarke]

How did this thread turn into a comparison of ret vs rogues? The point was that a single CLASS SPEC has a larger player base than an entire class. Read it again since you all seem to be having an issue.

welll yeah, paladin has been the #1 class played for awhile now in WoW, and Rogues have always been low in rather low population (maybe not this much for PvP but still) and since DPS is the number 1 role played im guessing alot of paladins are going to have Ret as one of their specs.

[shetan]

I'm still wondering why Ghostcrawler would just come up with something like "there are more ret paladins than rogues", if it wasn't true. What would he benefit by doing so?

He said it so he can nerf paladins again because remember, they killed his parents.

[Sturmbringe]

+1 for the argument "it's not about damage, it's about fun".

Rogues are boring now. It makes me sad. So many classes/specs have been revamped on how they are played be it with changes to spells, new spells, talents, talent changes. Rogue haven't changed much since TBC.

My other complaint is that they bring NOTHING to the table raid wise. Anything rogues can do, another class can do better.

Rogues need a revamp in playstyle. You would think the fact that a specific spec outnumbers a CLASS should be all the proof they need of this.

I don't agree. I have been playing Rogue since 2005, and I am pretty happy with the way my Rogue plays, else I would have rolled something else.

The only thing that a Rogue needs to do is to be given the potential to top the damage meters. Rogues were and still are all about DPS. Every single nerd out there that raid leads will be more than happy to bring us along if they know that we rock the damage meters, and that we will definitely OUTDPS the Shadow Priest, the Fury Warrior, the Retardin, the Cat and the chicken by a large margin.

This is the meaning of "Pure DPS Class". This is what the rogue is all about. DPS, DPS and more DPS. If you want pets, fuzzy bears and shiny lights go roll a hybrid.

Bottom line: Go play a hybrid and leave MY rogue alone.

EDIT: This thread is about how Rogues need a buff in PvP. I think that Rogues are mostly fine in PvE atm, however I don't raid competitively (i.e. outside Raid Finder) so I am not absolutely sure.

[Msi]

Stop complaining and roll 1 of each class.

That way you'll always have access to the FOTM class required fluff your epeen and stop you from posting such pablum threads.

NO sorry I am not a FoTM roller, been a rogue since TBC (warrior vanilla) so ehh no, its just sad to see how boring rogue's are compared to other classes (we have the same rotation/same bullshit skills since vanilla)

[Gulzhul]

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

I'll just leave this here, in response to all the retards using simcraft as the word of god on earth.

Look at that. Rogues aren't chilling in the basement, they've built a small town down there with a well and hopefully, one day, children. So much of their damage relies on being right on the target for extended periods of time with no burst, so the second a realistic encounter pops up, you're fucked.

It's been like that for a long time, I remember planning for future boss phases just to pop a rupture on the boss right before I knew I wouldnt be able to hit him, just so my energy wouldnt be fucked. Or saving combo points I could have used for damage, but had to save to renew my buffs because heyyy im off the boss.

Class needs a reboot.
Forget PvP, theyre dead in pvp. Theyre walking targets.

[Deleted]

Ok, and let's say that this is true - what does this have to do with rogue talents... Don't tell me some crap like "RETRI PALLY TALENTS ARE FUN!!!111" because other classes have awesome talents as well, so that would be stupid.

Ret is still weak in PVP, especially after the healing nerf. Ret paladins are completely unwanted in rated BGs.

The fact that there are less rogues than ret paladins is very telling.

[rogueMatthias]

Quick question...

What was the context of the statement?

People are assuming it means that he think Rogues need a lot of work because they're under-represented.

It could well be an excuse why they AREN't going to be doing any work on Rogues,.
ie. why put time in to a whole class when so few people play it, that just one spec of another class has more people playing it.


Just askin,

[stuntz]

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

I'll just leave this here, in response to all the retards using simcraft as the word of god on earth.

Look at that. Rogues aren't chilling in the basement, they've built a small town down there with a well and hopefully, one day, children. So much of their damage relies on being right on the target for extended periods of time with no burst, so the second a realistic encounter pops up, you're fucked.

It's been like that for a long time, I remember planning for future boss phases just to pop a rupture on the boss right before I knew I wouldnt be able to hit him, just so my energy wouldnt be fucked. Or saving combo points I could have used for damage, but had to save to renew my buffs because heyyy im off the boss.

Class needs a reboot.
Forget PvP, theyre dead in pvp. Theyre walking targets.

Please don't ever link noxxic as any sort of evidence. It's every bit as terrible as simcraft for rogues.

[Deleted]

EDIT: This thread is about how Rogues need a buff in PvP. I think that Rogues are mostly fine in PvE atm, however I don't raid competitively (i.e. outside Raid Finder) so I am not absolutely sure.

No, it isn't. You missed the point of this thread completely.

No one is saying that rogues need the ability to tank or heal or pets, no one is saying that rogue should have a 360 degrees revamp, we're just saying we want rogues to be fun again, that is we don't want specs to play the same, we don't want rogues to just be "the top DPS"-guy and also bring some unique utility, we don't want talents to be so mediocre and meaningless etc etc.

Quick question...

What was the context of the statement?

People are assuming it means that he think Rogues need a lot of work because they're under-represented.

It could well be an excuse why they AREN't going to be doing any work on Rogues,.
ie. why put time in to a whole class when so few people play it, that just one spec of another class has more people playing it.


Just askin,

I thought warlocks was along with rogues the least played class in Cata?

[igualitarist]

Rets are Blizzard's favourite child. Following vanilla and ever since (2006), they have been the most OP spec in the history of the game with the possible exception of WOTLK DK's. In fact, Rets qualify as one of the most OP specs in the history of MMORG's in general. Key abilities include: (Only after the WOTLK launch paladins were OP)

-The longest stun in the World of Warcraft ever. Have you never heard of rogue's stunlock ? Have you never heard of shockwave ? Surely it has only 4 sec duration, but only 20 sec CD.
-Immunity to being kited. Hand of freedom has 25 sec CD, and 6 sec duration, if talented we can use it two times before having to face it's CD, but we are still kitable, its just not as easy as it used to be.
-Bubble that make one completely immune to damage while still being able to attack. 8 sec duration, and we do 50% less damage, Meaning we do negligible damage while protected, and poor heals (since 2 flash of light burns all our mana). Causes forbearance
-Abilities such as Lay On Hands that instantly restore one's health to 100%. 10 min cd, and causes forbearance
-Infinite Mana. Mana is infinite for every non healer spec
-Ability to use hearthstone (RECALL) while being bubbled. That's amazing, thanks blizz they brought it back. It avoids cowards gankers like rogues.
-Excellent heals while dishing out excellent DPS with no penalty on their DPS. Really ? If we use 3 Holy powers to cast word of glory, we sacrifice a lot of damage by not using templar's verdict, or not refreshing inquisition. If we use seal of insight, we sacrifice a lot of damage from seal of truth or justice.
-Excellent DPS cooldowns completely unsuited for a DPS/Healing hybrid such as Ret. We are competitive only during our cooldowns, and a good player will neutralize us trought CC when we use our cooldowns
-Immunity to being griefed or ganked while out in the world questing. If you go one-to-one with a Ret you will lose, if you go two versus one against a Ret you will still lose, and if you try to go three to one against a Ret they will just bubble and hearthstone. I think a frost mage, or a shadow priest, or a demo lock will not agree with you in this one. Especially the shadow priest with the mass dispel. And what's the problem on getting away from combat ? Rogues do this all the time.
-Excellent in soloing Raid content. Yes we are, just like DK's, and hunters for example. It does not make us OP.
-Fastest mount speed in the World of Warcraft. Along with DK's, and well, mages can teleport, druids can insta cast their flight mount, shamans have a better heathstone, rogues have stealth. That's called flavour.

Recent bonus abilities:

-Pet (5 minutes CD, and we have no control on it.)
-DOTS (Every single spec in this game have dots)
-Snare (Every single melee in this game have snares)
-An ability similar to Rogue ability Sprint (Every single melee have a tool to catch the casters/ranged)
-Ranged execute (It's not an execute anymore, in fact, this is my second lowest hitting ability.)
-Several Ranged DPS abilities (Yes we do have several ranged dps abilites, but if a "ranged" paladin is defeating you, or out dpsing you, you are really bad.)

------------------------------------->With all the above in mind, it is not hard to see why there are more Rets than Rogues (There are more rets than rogues because paladins have a very rich lore in the warcraft universe, and also due hybrid nature, and every pally i know have ret as soloing spec).

I feel a lot of hatred in yout little heart, my friend

[Verain]

I wonder how warlocks are doing at the moment. Still curious to see if they are the least played, if not; than I can see his statement being a little funnier. :P

No. Rogues have been the least played class since BC. When the numbers briefly showed locks below rogues in 4.3, GC stated explicitly that warlocks were not the least played class.

---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 05:20 PM ----------

Ret is still weak in PVP, especially after the healing nerf. Ret paladins are completely unwanted in rated BGs.

So are mutilate rogues, right?

But wait, so are rogues.

Please remember, ret is just a spec. Rogue is an entire class.

---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 05:24 PM ----------

Then ask for a heroic leap that can only be used while stealthed or something, it sounds like you're asking for utility, wich is the price you've paid for being 5% better than the next best DPS for years on end.

No, we paid for that 5%-ish by being unable to tank or heal.

However- I suspect that in the current model, you are correct. GC can't state his current model because hybrids will burn his house down or something.

[Deleted]

So are mutilate rogues, right?

But wait, so are rogues.

Please remember, ret is just a spec. Rogue is an entire class.[COLOR="red"]

Just because a class has three specs, doesn't mean we want to play the other two.

Likewise, if combat was the only viable rogue spec, I still wouldn't want to play it.

That's just giving Blizz even less incentive to make all specs viable and fun.

[Deleted]

I wonder how warlocks are doing at the moment. Still curious to see if they are the least played, if not; than I can see his statement being a little funnier. :P

Warlocks will be back to being an arena pvp class and suck ass in all pvp where they don't have a healer up their butts, like usual.

[Susej]

Ok, and let's say that this is true - what does this have to do with rogue talents... Don't tell me some crap like "RETRI PALLY TALENTS ARE FUN!!!111" because other classes have awesome talents as well, so that would be stupid.

It's about the fact that you currently bring more support/utility/healing.
You currently have more Survivability/stronger cooldowns/large burst.

It's rather pathetic how quickly try hard ret-retards get all uppity about stuff like this.

This isn't about Rets. He could have said "there are currently more Enhancement Shamans than Rets." and the message would STILL be the same.

The issue is that, a spec, a portion of the players playing a class. Are being played more than a class as a whole.

And that doesn't settle well from a balance PoV.

Christ i hate STR stackers, always so dull.

---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 06:35 PM ----------

Rogues do great damage, have poor mobility and survivability. It's as simple as giving us baseline Shs, letting us pick prep/ or get 2 charges on shs in Shs's place.

[Kissme]

Oh I wonder why GC....

BUT there is hope:
Patch 5.2 will bring more talent changes than Patch 5.1, but they will mostly be number tweaks. Rogue talents were mentioned as something that needs to be looked at.

Expansions are designed to have 3 raid tiers. Assuming 5.2 brings the fixes rogues need and another raid tier then rogues will have been terrible for 33% of the expansion. Based on previous experience it is highly unlikely that 5.2 will fix rogues (based on Blizzard's record it is more likely that the balance adjustments will be so minor (to avoid making the class OP) and will also address numbers aspects rather than playstyle aspects (bandaid number crunching rather than addressing core issues)) thus resulting in little to no difference for rogues until 5.3 when they do a second pass after realizing that they missed the mark. This will put rogues as OP at the end of the expansion, but by then almost everyone will have abandoned them. Because they are suddenly OP you'll see a massive population resurgence and outcry from the community leading to rogues being ignored going into the next expansion. Rinse and repeat.

Hoping for 5.2 is like hoping that beta feedback would be heeded. You're more likely to get ideas that make you scratch your head and go "WTF are the devs on, do they even play rogues?" than you are to get fixes that actually address rogue problems.

[Shaderas]

Rets are Blizzard's favourite child. Following vanilla and ever since (2006), they have been the most OP spec in the history of the game with the possible exception of WOTLK DK's. In fact, Rets qualify as one of the most OP specs in the history of MMORG's in general. Key abilities include:

-The longest stun in the World of Warcraft ever.
-Immunity to being kited.
-Bubble that make one completely immune to damage while still being able to attack.
-Abilities such as Lay On Hands that instantly restore one's health to 100%.
-Infinite Mana.
-Ability to use hearthstone (RECALL) while being bubbled.
-Excellent heals while dishing out excellent DPS with no penalty on their DPS.
-Excellent DPS cooldowns completely unsuited for a DPS/Healing hybrid such as Ret.
-Immunity to being griefed or ganked while out in the world questing. If you go one-to-one with a Ret you will lose, if you go two versus one against a Ret you will still lose, and if you try to go three to one against a Ret they will just bubble and hearthstone.
-Excellent in soloing Raid content.
-Fastest mount speed in the World of Warcraft.

Recent bonus abilities:

-Pet
-DOTS
-Snare
-An ability similar to Rogue ability Sprint
-Ranged execute
-Several Ranged DPS abilities

------------------------------------->With all the above in mind, it is not hard to see why there are more Rets than Rogues.

Rets absolutely sucked in Vanilla. Seriously, they were a joke... if you raided, you were required to be Holy. Rets did have one SUPER season when Wrath was just coming out.

Anyways, I'm a rogue, and Rets do need some love, but Rogues do too. Honestly, I think there isn't much to argue here, the Rogue class needs some buffs, and Rets do too! That's all.