Crying about PVP realms ''Blue'' response

[Cows For Life]

Battlefield isn't an MMO. It's an instanced PvP environment. It's comparable to battlegrounds, not world PvP.

World PvP is inherently and deliberately unfair.

And for that matter, population issues are at heart a player-created problem. The issue is that some players choose to transfer to servers where they'll be on the winning side, and others don't want to face an imbalance so transfer away, so most servers which start to lean one way will hit a break point and slide to a complete state of imbalance. There's no easy way to fix that without forcing people to transfer, which would cause vastly more QQ than this does. Even merging servers doesn't help if we're talking about servers that are already fairly populated; you can't merge two high-pop servers without increasing queue times significantly.

So again, you're blaming Blizzard for the actions and choices of the community. People seriously need to start taking responsibility for their own choices.

Why apologize for their mismanagement? Blizzard is the enabler. They control the levers. They are the only ones that can change things on the scale required.

The only thing an individual can do is either quit and put that down as the reason or pay the shakedown fee/tax (which is not the type of feedback that Blizzard needs if you want things to change).

[Osmeric]

December, a month of fail analogies. The rules-set of PvP server - anyone and everyone can be attacked by the opposite faction. Those rules exist from the very beginning, those are the rules you sign up to when you create a character on PvP server. Everything else is irrelevant.

You're engaging in the fallacy of false equivalence, asserting that if two situations have the same rule set, they must be treated the same. This is nonsense and obviously so.

[Cows For Life]

December, a month of fail analogies. The rules-set of PvP server - anyone and everyone can be attacked by the opposite faction. Those rules exist from the very beginning, those are the rules you sign up to when you create a character on PvP server. Everything else is irrelevant.

They also said they wouldn't allow PVE to PVP transfers for various reasons... same with not allowing characters on both factions on the same PVP realm. We all know how that went once $$$ entered the equation. How anyone can argue for the "purity" of PVP servers after what's already happened?

[Deleted]

omg, had he added motherfucker after spilled the internet would have exploded from the sheer awesomeness.

They also said they wouldn't allow PVE to PVP transfers for various reasons... same with not allowing characters on both factions on the same PVP realm. We all know how that went once $$$ entered the equation. How anyone can argue for the "purity" of PVP servers after what's already happened?

A rule being broken does not imply all rules being broken.

[thunderdragon2]

ah endus, you keep telling people to take responsibility for their choices, but, what you seem to forget is the game has changed alot wiht so many expansions which IS blizzards choice CRZ IS BLIZZARD'S choice not ours, crz was blizzard's response to the mass qqing about dead/low population realms,

so endus for the sake of this thread say you are a member of the blizz development team, CRZ has not been implemented, how would you deal with the low population/ dead realm/faction imbalances?

even tho i do agree with you, i do believe that some blame lies with blizzard for THEIR design direction in the last 2 expansions, if they didn't want all of these dead zones they could have done something sooner

if they added CRZ in woltk i wouldn't have left the pve server i went to during ulduar, that i guarantee you

[Cows For Life]

A rule being broken does not imply all rules being broken.

It just seems strange to argue that a few tenets of PVP realms are sacrosanct when there have already been major upheavals and changes that have drastically altered the landscape. Don't change the rules! Stay true to the original vision! They've already thrown out big chunks of it...

[Endus]

Wrong. Blizzard made it possible for people to do what they did. They enabled them to server and faction change. Thus making this entirely Blizzards fault. If you hand a child a gun and said child shoots someone then you are to blame for having done so since the child can't be expected to even fathom what it did and know about the consequences of it's actions.

Why apologize for their mismanagement? Blizzard is the enabler. They control the levers. They are the only ones that can change things on the scale required.

The both of you, that's bonkers. Blizzard isn't handing a child a gun. They're a gun manufacturer. And you're trying to blame them because someone used their guns in a murder. You're denying those actually making the choices any responsibility for those choices.

Also, the only reason there would be an issue in your own analogy is because the child is not responsible for their own choices. And that's simply not the case here, and you cannot make a circular argument like that to try and "prove" that people aren't responsible unto themselves. Frankly, I think more of the community than to imply that they're all no better than children.

Yes, Blizzard created the opportunity. They did not cause anyone to take it. That's every player's individual choice, and the only person responsible for those choices are themselves.

The only thing an individual can do is either quit and put that down as the reason or pay the shakedown fee/tax (which is not the type of feedback that Blizzard needs if you want things to change).

Or roll a new toon on any server they want.
Or accept the consequences of their choices and continue playing on their current server.

Funny how you ignore obvious alternatives because they don't fit the conclusion you'd like to draw.

ah endus, you keep telling people to take responsibility for their choices, but, what you seem to forget is the game has changed alot wiht so many expansions which IS blizzards choice CRZ IS BLIZZARD'S choice not ours, crz was blizzard's response to the mass qqing about dead/low popularization realms,

so endus for the sake of this thread say you are a member of the blizz development team, CRZ has not been implemented, how would you deal with the lowpopulation/ dead realm/faction imbalances?

I don't know the logistics involved in merging realms, but the issue with such a solution is that it never ends; people will keep leaving "bad" servers for "good" ones, and if you keep merging the "bad" ones, eventually you're just reducing the number of servers and pushing population into a smaller number of servers. Plus, if you merge two "dead" servers into a single "low pop" server, you likely haven't fixed anything. It risks a lot for uncertain payout.

If you prevent people transferring to/creating new toons on a server with a faction imbalance, but ONLY on the popular side, you'll get everyone on that side screaming bloody murder that they can't make new alts or have friends transfer in to join their guild. It's worse than the existing problem.

With the recent push with cross-realm LFR and dungeons, CRZ seems the best solution. It's flexible and dynamic, changing as populations change as needed without needing future tinkering once it's working, as server mergers/transfers do. The one small issue I'd fix would be to track server faction population, and rank them in give categories; "heavily biased Horde/Alliance" for those that are 85%+ one faction, "slightly biased Horde/Alliance" for those which are 60-85% one faction, and "balanced" for those that are within 40-60% ranges. And then CRZ would only apply to those on the far side; if your server is classed as "Heavily biased Horde", you're only going to be CRZing with servers that are heavily biased Alliance. If one category is too empty to balance things out, then add some flexibility like CRZing with two "moderately Alliance biased" servers rather than one heavy Alliance.

That's a relatively small tweak to the existing CRZ system, though, which for the most part works exactly as I'd like it to.

[thunderdragon2]

I don't know the logistics involved in merging realms, but the issue with such a solution is that it never ends; people will keep leaving "bad" servers for "good" ones, and if you keep merging the "bad" ones, eventually you're just reducing the number of servers and pushing population into a smaller number of servers. Plus, if you merge two "dead" servers into a single "low pop" server, you likely haven't fixed anything. It risks a lot for uncertain payout.

If you prevent people transferring to/creating new toons on a server with a faction imbalance, but ONLY on the popular side, you'll get everyone on that side screaming bloody murder that they can't make new alts or have friends transfer in to join their guild. It's worse than the existing problem.

With the recent push with cross-realm LFR and dungeons, CRZ seems the best solution. It's flexible and dynamic, changing as populations change as needed without needing future tinkering once it's working, as server mergers/transfers do. The one small issue I'd fix would be to track server faction population, and rank them in give categories; "heavily biased Horde/Alliance" for those that are 85%+ one faction, "slightly biased Horde/Alliance" for those which are 60-85% one faction, and "balanced" for those that are within 40-60% ranges. And then CRZ would only apply to those on the far side; if your server is classed as "Heavily biased Horde", you're only going to be CRZing with servers that are heavily biased Alliance. If one category is too empty to balance things out, then add some flexibility like CRZing with two "moderately Alliance biased" servers rather than one heavy Alliance.

That's a relatively small tweak to the existing CRZ system, though, which for the most part works exactly as I'd like it to.

thank you for that endus that was a delightful read, hopefully you can understand why people are pissed with this now since blizzard's design choices with regards in wrath and cata didn't really prepare people for this to wpvp as there was none, then all of a suddenly, boom, CRZ hits and gankers's every where that's why myself and lots of other people blame blizz for the constant ganking and if you've missed it, its because that was almost non existent in most pvp realms in woltk and cata.

hopefully you can see the point im trying to convay

[Cows For Life]

Yes, Blizzard created the opportunity. They did not cause anyone to take it. That's every player's individual choice, and the only person responsible for those choices are themselves.

Or roll a new toon on any server they want.
Or accept the consequences of their choices and continue playing on their current server.

Funny how you ignore obvious alternatives because they don't fit the conclusion you'd like to draw.

That's so disingenuous. It's more like roll multiple characters and level all of them up to (for me at the time, 80) and their professions too (and gather your rare patterns). What is so sacred about Blizzard that they're entirely above criticism for completely ignoring the consequences of features that they put into the game?

Even if an individual re-rolls, the problem continues to exist. Blizzard definitely deserves the blame for allowing the downward population spirals to accelerate beyond the point of no return because they could have made a meaningful impact before it started, but they did not.

Is it the player's fault for using DK's back in season 5 (player-created problem) or was it Blizzard? Blizzard didn't force players to make death knights or use them in PVP or tank OS3D!!!

[namelessone]

They also said they wouldn't allow PVE to PVP transfers for various reasons... same with not allowing characters on both factions on the same PVP realm. We all know how that went once $$$ entered the equation. How anyone can argue for the "purity" of PVP servers after what's already happened?

I'm not implying "purity" of PvP servers, whatever that means. All I'm saying is that your decision to allow to be killed by opposing faction was made the moment you rolled the character on open pvp server, and there can't be any discussion about it.

And if you only went to PvP server because one faction was having massive imbalance and you thought that would guarantee you safety, well, sucks to be you.

[Deleted]

$200 is an adequate amount to pay for your own choices though. PvP Realms are like doing 75 in a 55 MPH zone. You chose to do that 75 MPH and now you're getting a ticket for it. Could've played it safe and done 55 MPH (PvE Realm) but that was your decision. Time to make for your own decisions.

Really, how do you blame a company, that supplied you a game, for mistakes you made in-game?

No, you rolled to a realm with a certain community. Yes, communities change over time (so does your neighborhood) but when the government (actually, w/o your vote influence so more like a dictatorship) makes a choice which hugely affects who lives in your neighborhood and makes it more crowded then you cannot blame yourself. You could blame yourself for living in a dictatorship, yes (you bought WoW) you did decide to live in that neighborhood but you did not opt for the choice the government made (Blizzard did). I did not decide to play with a bunch of people from realms I never even heard of before. Blizzard made that choice for me.

Your analogy of speeding more applies to people who speed. I mean seriously why compare speeding with rolling to a PvP realm.

Also, I am totally for world PvP between players of equal level (and pref equal gear) because then the world PvP is about skill. I like it when a game is about skill (e.g. challenge modes, GW2 PvP). I'm totally for world PvP if there's a rare. I'm also totally for equal realm population. Unfortunely, CRZ doesn't promote either. It promotes mindless ganking.

[coldbear]

"Experience may change during online play."

Pvp happened on a pvp server.

---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 01:08 AM ----------

You're a feral druid. The other ganker class, besides rogue. Yes, you would support it.

Well, that was rather entertaining. Class-ist. In other news I haven't played since ICC was serious business.

[Deleted]

Gotta say I totally agree with Daxxari. Which is why 4 months ago I swapped to a PvE server.

I got 11 characters on my high pop PvP realm. If I could reroll for free, I'd join this raiding guild who has equal progress as mine but is on a RPPvP realm (= low pop CRZ). Unfortunately I don't have 220 EUR to burn for that, and I don't want to leave my current raiding guild. Suck it up? Yeah I'm doing that, but that doesn't mean I am not unhappy with this sudden, unannounced change which completely changed my game experience outside Pandaria, SW, and Org.

And to the fellow who says Blizzard just provides the tools: they could provide a safety mechanism like the one I suggested. Heck, even provide low levels an option so they can "flag themselves for PvP combat with people more than 5 levels above them" kinda like PvE server's PvP combat works now but allowing them PvP combat with people against similar levels (in other words skill-based PvP of equal level field). Blizzard does not provide this, and Blizzard does not allow us to play on our own PvP server anymore.

[coldbear]

I got 11 characters on my high pop PvP realm. If I could reroll for free, I'd join this raiding guild who has equal progress as mine but is on a RPPvP realm (= low pop CRZ). Unfortunately I don't have 220 EUR to burn

Do you really need to move 11 characters? REALLY? I call bull****.

If you want fair pvp, then level in BGs. If that's not fair enough for you fighting against similar levels - because now no doubt you're QQ'ing about gear imbalances while leveling in BGs - then there's always leveling in instances.

Stop the QQ. Be the change that you want to be. Leave the PVP servers for the people who want unfair, open world pvp.

[nekobaka]

. Get a friend or Guildie to come kill that ganker. It solves the problem and by your own definition of fairness has created W-PvP.
If you do not want to ask for somebodies help then it's your fault.

I see and witness things like this all the time where these things escalate because somebody got ganked, STV and the Dark Portal at the Blasted Lands are good examples.

On my server, usually by the time a friend or an equal level of the ganker comes, the ganker turns tail which in the end prevents escalating world PVP. The gankers just move off to another zone looking for an easy kill and run when a challenge appears. Then there are times when they come back after your friend goes back to what they are doing and your friend comes back and the ganker runs away and in the end your friends time and yours is wasted.

Then for the cases of doing dailies and it is even levels, then usually it is one faction pushing out another faction for a bit, not many care for large world PVP battles, if they wanted group PVP with same levels then they go off and do BGs which is what they are intended for. With the way the game has changed, world PVP is just not what all players who are on PVP realms care about anymore. Yes there are those who do enjoy it as posted in this thread and there are those that used to enjoy it and now just go with the flow.

Max levels ganking each other and creating zone disruption during dailies I have no issue with. What annoys me is those who scream "Its red its dead," and then turn tail when the red is the same level than them. It is not like there is much of a death penalty in this game, if they dont want to die then they shouldnt be PVPing to begin with.

[Deleted]

Do you really need to move 11 characters? REALLY? I call bull****.

I tried moving my chars before. I moved 2. I didn't have all my gold with me, wasn't self reliant on professions, and ended up playing 2 realms. I prefer to stick to one realm. On top of that, you don't know if you fit in on the new guild and realm. You can call bull**** whatever you want though. Oh and the 220 EUR is assuming I wouldn't want or have to faction change. Good luck finding a good alliance raiding guild or realm which also fits your real-life schedule and where you connect to the people. They're much more rare than horde.

[Deleted]

Max levels ganking each other and creating zone disruption during dailies I have no issue with. What annoys me is those who scream "Its red its dead," and then turn tail when the red is the same level than them. It is not like there is much of a death penalty in this game, if they dont want to die then they shouldnt be PVPing to begin with.

Of course i try to run to avoid dying, being at war doesn't mean you need to be a martyr.
Same level is a bad criteria though, it depends on which class the other guy has and a bunch of other factors.
If picking your battles means that your opponent has to be 25 levels lower than you, so be it: WERE AT WAR.

[Kaleredar]

I got 11 characters on my high pop PvP realm. If I could reroll for free, I'd join this raiding guild who has equal progress as mine but is on a RPPvP realm (= low pop CRZ). Unfortunately I don't have 220 EUR to burn for that, and I don't want to leave my current raiding guild. Suck it up? Yeah I'm doing that, but that doesn't mean I am not unhappy with this sudden, unannounced change which completely changed my game experience outside Pandaria, SW, and Org.

You mean changed it to what they expected it to be all along. It's like you bought a house in the mountains in the summer, and then complained to the real estate agent because it snows in the winter.

And to the fellow who says Blizzard just provides the tools: they could provide a safety mechanism like the one I suggested. Heck, even provide low levels an option so they can "flag themselves for PvP combat with people more than 5 levels above them" kinda like PvE server's PvP combat works now but allowing them PvP combat with people against similar levels (in other words skill-based PvP of equal level field). Blizzard does not provide this, and Blizzard does not allow us to play on our own PvP server anymore.

Except this was never their design philosophy. You can make the age old argument that ganking is wrong, but pretending like this is some new issue is completely false.

[freedrom]

THANK GOD!!!!!!! Hope everyone reads this. Been telling the complainers the whole time they rolled on the wrong server. Damn cry babies. Red your dead!!!

[Deleted]

If you want fair pvp, then level in BGs. If that's not fair enough for you fighting against similar levels - because now no doubt you're QQ'ing about gear imbalances while leveling in BGs - then there's always leveling in instances.

I sure as hell QQ about gear because in other games PvP is more about skill instead of gear. Blizzard admitted themselves PvP is not solely about skill, but also has a grind/gear component. It is by design some shitter with awesome gear can pwn a random fellow who just dabbled in PvP. A game like GW2 doesn't have this mechanic.

Stop the QQ. Be the change that you want to be. Leave the PVP servers for the people who want unfair, open world pvp.

I said I am alright with world PvP -even ganking, and even with major gear differences- (tho I find PvP gear grind silly, and it wouldn't exist in a non-sub MMO; indeed it does not exist in GW2!) if it is impossible for a high level to engage in world PvP "combat" (read: oneshot) if the low level agrees. Its like a minor conceding to have sex with an adult. If the minor really wants it, I'm alright with it (the law disagrees w/me here, but depends per country; parents have a say in it, but it boils down to the police not caring about it). However if the minor says no, it means no -yes, in bold.

We do apply my suggestion with people of equal lvl able to PvP with each other on all PvP realms, and then we make a few realms and we call these GvG (gankfest versus gankfest). Its like a gigantic moshpit where all these low levels and high levels go out and about and kill each other off, like a society without police. You go have fun there, while I play on a real PvP server. Oh wait, you don't like your realm got changed over time? Welcome to my world.

---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 03:25 AM ----------

You mean changed it to what they expected it to be all along. It's like you bought a house in the mountains in the summer, and then complained to the real estate agent because it snows in the winter.

No, you do not expect your realm to be suddenly extremely crowded like what happened with CRZ. That's like buying a house in the mountain, and then suddenly the house is frozen in snow in -80 because suddenly God decided a climate change. If I knew CRZ would've happened I would've made sure I would've had all the stuff from the world I needed. Stuff like lore master, rare hunting, mounts and pets, and I wouldn't have rolled on my current server.

GG on Blizz earning money due to CRZ though.

Except this was never their design philosophy. You can make the age old argument that ganking is wrong, but pretending like this is some new issue is completely false.

If CRZ type of population was their design philosophy my realm would've been balanced alliance:horde long ago, and the realm population (which is actually high) would've been higher (as if people from my realm really want this?) long ago. Before I even rolled here. You know, in TBC or something. With realm merges and such, you know.

The low pop realms have it even worse. Now people compete with them on rares and resources, which they get less, but they also have less market for those materials because the AH is still dead as a ghost town.

---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 03:38 AM ----------

Of course i try to run to avoid dying, being at war doesn't mean you need to be a martyr.
Same level is a bad criteria though, it depends on which class the other guy has and a bunch of other factors.
If picking your battles means that your opponent has to be 25 levels lower than you, so be it: WERE AT WAR.

Yeah I know in war some people like to do sick stuff to women and children, but I think in a game its OK to limit the sick stuff to a moderate degree.

Because that is what a low level equals to. They can't harm you, you're like a God to them.

Why is it that IRL people find it unfair a 8 year old girl gets beaten up or raped by a 30 year old man, but in game suddenly it is OK? Is it because games are an outlet to your real-life frustrations? Or is the ganking some outlet from you losing to one of your level? Take one of your own kind. I can understand you can't beat anyone of your level and hence want to kill some low level fellow (that's what a lot of PvP in WoW is about) but I believe the majority of those who roll on a PvP realm envision themselves in PvP combat versus players of their own level. In Cata we had this PvP combat in Vashj'ir (level ~81), in TB (level 85), in Uldum (level ~83) and so on.