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  1. #701
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Well, for someone with "no problem" with PvP, you sure do seem to be griping a lot.
    I haven't made any complaints, just corrected some poor logic and pointed out some facts.

  2. #702
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Well, for someone with "no problem" with PvP, you sure do seem to be griping a lot.
    So few words to completely destroy all his pointless self-proclamined facts bringing posts ..

    Good day to you sir , good day!

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I haven't made any complaints, just corrected some poor logic and pointed out some facts.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    This thread exists because CRZ is a massive change to world pvp, and one that is obviously in practice against the basic idea of having a pvp server.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Oh and blizzard hasn't fixed pvp servers. it's detroyed them. It is providing world pvp, but not server based world pvp.
    Sounds more like you are blaming CRZ for PvP realms being out of control. Let's try this one on for size. Let's say CRZ is never introduced. Instead, another popular PvP MMO fails and every player runs over and rolls on a PvP server in Wow. Now every PvP server gets 100 new players. They spend all their time grinding to 90 just to grief lowbies. HOW the world gets repopulated should not be an issue. The FACT of the matter is the mechanics of PVP worlds have always allowed ganking, regardless of taking advantage of any glitches. This will NEVER change, and I, for one, hope it doesn't. I have my PvE realm for questing and raiding, and my PvP realm for all out world murdering. If people don't like what happens on a PvP realm, maybe they should just pack up their feminine products and move over to PvE.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    The thing I find a bit odd is that pve realm players seeming to think they have an opinion on the matter.
    If people are in this thread arguing about pvp servers, and don't play on pvp servers, they need to get out of the discussion. I don't show up to their raids or instances and try to say we should have pvp in their precious on-rails linear pve experience.

    Incidentally there have been some instances of raidIDs becoming cross-faction, but that was a long time ago and many laughs were had.

  5. #705
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Really?





    Sounds more like you are blaming CRZ for PvP realms being out of control. Let's try this one on for size. Let's say CRZ is never introduced. Instead, another popular PvP MMO fails and every player runs over and rolls on a PvP server in Wow. Now every PvP server gets 100 new players. They spend all their time grinding to 90 just to grief lowbies. HOW the world gets repopulated should not be an issue. The FACT of the matter is the mechanics of PVP worlds have always allowed ganking, regardless of taking advantage of any glitches. This will NEVER change, and I, for one, hope it doesn't. I have my PvE realm for questing and raiding, and my PvP realm for all out world murdering. If people don't like what happens on a PvP realm, maybe they should just pack up their feminine products and move over to PvE.
    No sir no sir, you shouldnt try tot use logic with him.

    It will make his skin burn and then he will have to go back into shadows to survive..

    In the meantime .. i wonder how many here are looking for his alts to perm gank if he is on a pvp server :P.

    Pro CRZ all the time.

    Hell i have been ganked just 2 days ago, and then killed about 10 hordes in 10mins .. its life .

  6. #706
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Really?





    Sounds more like you are blaming CRZ for PvP realms being out of control. Let's try this one on for size. Let's say CRZ is never introduced. Instead, another popular PvP MMO fails and every player runs over and rolls on a PvP server in Wow. Now every PvP server gets 100 new players. They spend all their time grinding to 90 just to grief lowbies. HOW the world gets repopulated should not be an issue. The FACT of the matter is the mechanics of PVP worlds have always allowed ganking, regardless of taking advantage of any glitches. This will NEVER change, and I, for one, hope it doesn't. I have my PvE realm for questing and raiding, and my PvP realm for all out world murdering. If people don't like what happens on a PvP realm, maybe they should just pack up their feminine products and move over to PvE.
    Both of those things you quoted me on are facts.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I haven't made any complaints, just corrected some poor logic and pointed out some facts.
    I.e., you've been griping a lot and you're rationalizing your griping by calling other people's arguments "poor", as well as calling your opinions "facts."

    Example:

    All PVE players are flower-sniffing bunny-loving keyboard turning mouthbreathers who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. It's a fact and you can't dispute it x100 times more than you can say no takebacks.

  8. #708
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by coldbear View Post
    I.e., you've been griping a lot.
    A cogent basis for argument (facts) is not an argument itself.

    Though it can be, if accepting those facts leads to an inevitable conclusion. Of course what you are doing is working backwards from that inevitable conclusion and then making the leap that it must be my personal position. (and then you are proceeding on that assumption.)

    Whatever.

    Facts are -

    blizzard radically changed the game environment after 8 years.
    you change stuff in a radical way, expect unhappy people.
    people tend to assume tomorrow will look a lot like today, especially in the absence of any other data.
    nowt wrong with any of this.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Which blizzard doesn't have to provide.

    You don't get to pick and choose here. If you are up for the ToS meaning anything is changable, then anything is changable.
    I'm paying for the MMO experience, not a singleplayer game, nor a MORPG. The Massively experience has been missing from my game the past 3 years. The CRZ put it back in.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Both of those things you quoted me on are facts.
    Definition of FACT: Dictionary Definition of FACT

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    This thread exists because CRZ is a massive change to world pvp, and one that is obviously in practice against the basic idea of having a pvp server.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Oh and blizzard hasn't fixed pvp servers. it's detroyed them. It is providing world pvp, but not server based world pvp.
    Those are OPINIONS of one person. Stop trying to mess up the World PvP we have finally been waiting for and go to a PvE realm if it bugs you so much. Go open a ticket and beg Blizz to let you move for free. Who knows? They might do it. But stop confusing OPINION with FACT.

  11. #711
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Definition of FACT: Dictionary Definition of FACT





    Those are OPINIONS of one person. Stop trying to mess up the World PvP we have finally been waiting for and go to a PvE realm if it bugs you so much. Go open a ticket and beg Blizz to let you move for free. Who knows? They might do it. But stop confusing OPINION with FACT.
    Neither of those quotes are opinions.

    CRZ removed the idea of a discrete server to pvp on - fact.
    CRZ is a massive change to world pvp - also a fact.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 04:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    I'm paying for the MMO experience, not a singleplayer game, nor a MORPG. The Massively experience has been missing from my game the past 3 years. The CRZ put it back in.
    You are paying for whatever blizzard gives, it's right there in the ToS.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You are paying for whatever blizzard gives, it's right there in the ToS.
    So you can spout this FACT to others, but when it comes to PvP servers, your quote is just "advice" not fact.

  13. #713
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Neither of those quotes are opinions.

    CRZ removed the idea of a discrete server to pvp on - fact.
    CRZ is a massive change to world pvp - also a fact.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 04:04 PM ----------



    You are paying for whatever blizzard gives, it's right there in the ToS.
    Sorry but everyone in rl dies.

    And you are wrong .

    Now .. these ARE facts.

    And i obviously forgot the obvious .. apples arent oranges :P.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Neither of those quotes are opinions.

    CRZ removed the idea of a discrete server to pvp on - fact.
    CRZ is a massive change to world pvp - also a fact..
    PvP realms were never DEFINED by Blizzard as "discrete" - FACT
    CRZ allowed for more World PvP, but has never changed the fundamental dynamic of a PvP realm - FACT

  15. #715
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    PvP realms were never DEFINED by Blizzard as "discrete" - FACT
    Yes, they were.
    CRZ allowed for more World PvP, but has never changed the fundamental dynamic of a PvP realm - FACT
    Except for it no longer being a discrete server.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, they were.


    Except for it no longer being a discrete server.


    Please show me the Blizz ToS, ToU, or EULA where it DEFINES PvP servers as "Discrete".

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo4200 View Post
    the T.o.s pops up the first time you run the game you must accept it to play the game its not our fault you choose not to read it ......
    This sort of reasoning is 100% bogus. Having clicked "yes" on the ToS doesn't mean one has any obligation to refrain from complaining about any aspect of the game. Nor is complaining an indication that you, Mongo4200, are at fault for anything.

    Customers have an inalienable right to define what will or will not satisfy them. All the design intentions, ToS forms, tacit agreements, developer definitions or warnings will not change this. The CRZ change pissed off a substantial number of people, and all the legalistic BS doesn't remove that unhappiness.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If something happens on a continual basis for 8 years, people can be forgiven for getting used to it and assuming it will continue.
    If this something is in an unwanted state without a possible fix available at the time then I would rather expect it to change once there is a reasonable way to correct it. It was clear that the intended behaviour and experience differed from the then current state.

    One could use a similar argument against account-wide mounts to claim that they shouldn't have been implemented because people already had doubles of certain mounts and the implementation merged those into a single one and they couldn't possibly expect that. While this is an argument of note and steps should in general be taken to make the changes more smooth to the players, the concept of "It shouldn't change because it's been like that forever" is faulty and halts progression.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    "It is, therefore it will always be so"
    Similar arguments have been used by both sides. I think that it is a valid one when talking about the foundations of a design. Beyond that it is something to be taken into account but should not be an remarkable obstacle to improvements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The policy is irrelevent, only practice matters.
    I disagree. Policy is what everything is to be paralleled with, including practice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Junkdepot View Post
    And I don't think it's beyond the pale for Blizzard to acknowledge that what the people having issues with the CRZ PVP experience on a PVP realm (regardless of it's stated or implied intent per the policy) is because it's not what they have been accustomed to... ...Blizzard needs to recognize that the experience THEY provided on PVP realms over the last two expansions is not consistent with their stated intent of a PVP realm and what PVP realms have returned to. They should provide a means for people to move characters off for free or at reduced cost for multiple characters.
    My arguments are really only against changes being done to the PvP realms in order to make them more like PvE realms. They don't have an obligation to do so, but if the company decides the take action in order to aid the players with issues to relocate, I don't see myself having a reason to object that. That is someone else's war.


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    blizzard radically changed the game environment after 8 years.
    This said environment has gone through radical changes on multiple occasions. It would be even more radical for it not to in an MMORPG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    you change stuff in a radical way, expect unhappy people.
    Yes, that is always the case with everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    people tend to assume tomorrow will look a lot like today, especially in the absence of any other data.
    This is true and often valid. In the case of CRZ there was not an absence of data to inform people that the intented state differed from the state at the time. That is quite the reason to expect a change in the future.

    I also expect changes to the concept and practice of a realm in the future, even if not so near, due to dying and unbalanced (faction) populations,

  19. #719
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Please show me the Blizz ToS, ToU, or EULA where it DEFINES PvP servers as "Discrete".
    I've absolutely no need to.

    The TOS says blizzard can provide you with absolutely anything they want to. So, for definitions we have to look at how things actually operated.

    For 8 years, pvp servers were discrete, in fact all servers were discrete, pve, RP, RPVPV, whatever. This is also a fact. Blizzard defined what a pvp server was by their repeated actions.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    If people don't like what happens on a PvP realm, maybe they should just pack up their feminine products and move over to PvE.
    I think I just found my new sig.

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