Blood dk mastery 170%

[Deleted]

you do realize that the way vengeance and tanks currently work our dmg, no matter what setup or size, is important.

on a fight with no veng gimic....any progression based tank will easily reach numbers of around 100-150k for the 30secs burst period.....and maintain around 40-50k dps during the encounter. also during certain phases of heroic encounters (before its on farm) using a highly stacked veng tank will be more beneficial than most dps classes....for example a monk or pally tank on the adds on Feng will more than likely out dps half your dps.

so tank dmg is highly important and if used correctly (i.e ur tank knows how to gimic veng) can be the difference between a kill and a wipe.

not all classes have to hit expertise hard cap (if memory serves me correctly only pallys and monks have 2 reach it) however hit cap is the number one prio for any tank....then u decide the whole mitiagtion vs avoidance debate.

the old model of ignore hit and expertise and reforge full mitigation doesn't work anymore as tanks mitigation comes from landing abilities.

so its always (there are some fights where this doesnt count but 9/10 it does)

hit cap > expertise (hard or soft depending on your class and play-style) --> then ur primary stat. which differs from class - i.e dks go mastery, pallies go haste, druids crit etc

[r_deniel]

the old model of ignore hit and expertise and reforge full mitigation doesn't work anymore as tanks mitigation comes from landing abilities.

so its always (there are some fights where this doesnt count but 9/10 it does)

hit cap > expertise (hard or soft depending on your class and play-style) --> then ur primary stat. which differs from class - i.e dks go mastery, pallies go haste, druids crit etc

bdk always has to land ability to survive. And why i must have hit cap? I loose ~8 RP and 1 gcd when RS misses. Outbreak miss on pull? What a shame /cry /cast icy touch /cast plague strike
Please, if your main paladin or monk don't think all other tanks has so bad mechanics - for bdk caps give some dps and stable rotation. Tanking gains from + stacks of scent of blood and RP looses from RS misses is minor and doesn't matter.

[Domiku]

bdk always has to land ability to survive. And why i must have hit cap? I loose ~8 RP and 1 gcd when RS misses. Outbreak miss on pull? What a shame /cry /cast icy touch /cast plague strike
Please, if your main paladin or monk don't think all other tanks has so bad mechanics - for bdk caps give some dps and stable rotation. Tanking gains from + stacks of scent of blood and RP looses from RS misses is minor and doesn't matter.

By having to cast icy touch and plague strike you are using resources you could spend on avoidance. Outbreak missing is and can be an issue. Also more DPS the quicker the fight goes and the quicker the fight the less time you are taking damage

Also

"Crimson Scourge Increases the damage dealt by your Blood Boil by 40% 10%, and when you land a melee attack on a target that is infected with your Blood Plague, there is a 10% chance that your next Blood Boil or Death and Decay will consume no runes."

Free blood boils and more damage from them.

and.

"Soul Reaper If the enemy dies before this effect triggers, the Death Knight gains 50% haste for 10 sec. 5 sec"

More haste for more DS's and again more damage.

8RP adds up as does that 1 GC.

Not going for hit/exp is fine, but pointless when your healers are having no issue healing you. If healers are having an issue healing you then likely you are doing something wrong. The extra chance to hit the target and more DPS will help the raid far more as a whole than a small amount more avoidance. It takes hardily anything to get hit and exp cap you loose very little avoidance and gain so much for doing so and help the raid. It also makes your job as a tank far more easy and less stressful.

If the healers have no issue keeping you alive and can do with without even batting an eye lid that is the point you have to say to yourself why am I getting more avoidance instead of making this fight go smoother and making the role of tanking more easy for myself.

I remember something similar to this is Wrath when Stamina was king. The QQ people had about it saying avoidance was the way go as you took less damage. It was true you did take less damage going for avoidance but it was pointless. Having more HP back then would allow you to survive he bigger hits more easy and not give the healers a heart attack. So stacking stam made you take more damage but made the job more easy for healers. This is basicly what's happening now in MoP. Healers having no issues so going for more avoidance is pointless its best spent on getting more DPS as a tank or Stam to live though the bigger hits.

[r_deniel]

80% of your damage dealt by vengeance. Stop talking about improving dps by your rotation.
And i talking about prio caps over mastery. Never ever mastery since 4.2 would be worse than any other stat. In 10 man even stamina is useless.
BB ~5% of bdk dps. SR 10-15%, but my WOL top 26 elegon HM was taken when ALL my reapers was parried.
Srsly, if you care about so small things you should track stacks on your worms and run over them when they blow.

Checked my will HM - dps dummy for tanks - SR dealt 6% dps. Ta'yak HM - 8%.

[Pickwickman]

bdk always has to land ability to survive. And why i must have hit cap? I loose ~8 RP and 1 gcd when RS misses. Outbreak miss on pull? What a shame /cry /cast icy touch /cast plague strike
Please, if your main paladin or monk don't think all other tanks has so bad mechanics - for bdk caps give some dps and stable rotation. Tanking gains from + stacks of scent of blood and RP looses from RS misses is minor and doesn't matter.

Top 10 ranking Blood Dk here, on pretty much the majority of the current fights. Don't listen to this guy. The gain of DPS by just going for Hit/Exp caps and the Fluidity of the rotation (10-20k DPS increase minimum) Far outweighs 10% mastery. Only go for a full tanking setup when you're on a progression boss or when you're sure the boss can basically two shot you. Which is almost no boss in this tier, including heroics.

Now, mister, you said you ranked on your DK for HC Elegon. top 200 is not important, if you rank top 10 without Hit/Exp cap but focussing on Mastery > Parry > Dodge I want to hear back from you.

EDIT: Ofcourse over 90% of your damage comes from Vengeance. But what happens if you miss your abilties? Vengeance doesn't matter into the equation.

2nd EDIT: Also, regarding 10-mans here, the gain of 10-20k DPS makes a HUGE difference in your kills. Don't try to deny it, if 6 dps are doing 100k each and you do 20k more dps that's still a whopping raiddps increase of 3% which can mean the difference between a wipe and a kill. So often was I one of the last people alive in a progression fight and that little bit of extra DPS that I was doing made us have the kill.

---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 12:08 AM ----------

Tanks need to be hit/exp. capped now. Welcome to 5.0.

Not for blood DK's, Blizzard buffed DS in 5.0.4 so that even when it misses/dodges you get the Health and Shield. Now that the Active Mitigation model is set in stone they really should revert that buff. It makes it so Blood Dk's are more in line with the other tanks and then we won't have useless discussions about this.

---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 12:09 AM ----------

>problems with aggro
>2013

>meme-arrows
>outside of 4chan

[r_deniel]

Ok. Top 12 Ta'yak with 3.6% exp and 4% hit.
Stat priorities for me: mastery>hit=exp.
And now we can calculate together.
17 reapers. All landed. Luck. If they missed i lost ~2 reapers (lack of 3.5% hit and 3.9% exp) for 300k dmg.
No lost dmg for HS because of rune instant refresh.
Some missed BB for 100k and some free BB procs from missed white attacks for 50k.
Other spells missed as they should have been.

SO.
I lost 450k damage for 8 min fight. OMG. If you want some crazy dps for your raid then take death siphon and track your Vengeance and replace DS. Call Timmy on cd. But NOT caps before mastery.
You still here? Any other wondering arguments?

[tibe]

Ok. Top 12 Ta'yak with 3.6% exp and 4% hit.
Stat priorities for me: mastery>hit=exp.
And now we can calculate together.
17 reapers. All landed. Luck. If they missed i lost ~2 reapers (lack of 3.5% hit and 3.9% exp) for 300k dmg.
No lost dmg for HS because of rune instant refresh.
Some missed BB for 100k and some free BB procs from missed white attacks for 50k.



Other spells missed as they should have been.

SO.
I lost 450k damage for 8 min fight. OMG. If you want some crazy dps for your raid then take death siphon and track your Vengeance and replace DS. Call Timmy on cd. But NOT caps before mastery.
You still here? Any other wondering arguments?

The thread is full of it fruitcake. You're wrong, just suck it up.

@ Pickwickwoman:

I zapped that 5.0.4 change, guess I should stop slacking.

[Deleted]

Ok. Top 12 Ta'yak with 3.6% exp and 4% hit.
Stat priorities for me: mastery>hit=exp.
And now we can calculate together.
17 reapers. All landed. Luck. If they missed i lost ~2 reapers (lack of 3.5% hit and 3.9% exp) for 300k dmg.
No lost dmg for HS because of rune instant refresh.
Some missed BB for 100k and some free BB procs from missed white attacks for 50k.
Other spells missed as they should have been.

SO.
I lost 450k damage for 8 min fight. OMG. If you want some crazy dps for your raid then take death siphon and track your Vengeance and replace DS. Call Timmy on cd. But NOT caps before mastery.
You still here? Any other wondering arguments?

So what about the fact that a missed hs also means a missed global? surely that = less rp gen and more than 450k damage over an 8 min fight. I guess you're just not that good at 'calculating'. I suggest you stop trying to make it out that everyone elses preference is wrong. Everything is situational. And i for one would take hit/exp caps over the minute increase in dmg taken to cut a very large chunk of time off a boss kill which - you guessed it, would cut down the amount of raid healing needed as well.
You can argue that dps should make up for more dps needed, but tanks and healers can find dps a shit ton easier than a dps already tuned for min maxing and doing everything perfectly. That is a fact.

[Kajk67rine]

do a large portion of the raid's damage. Hitting hit and

[Nillo]

Ok. Top 12 Ta'yak with 3.6% exp and 4% hit.

Ta'yak dps is mostly about getting as much vengeance as possible this includes:
1) Telling your off tank to only taunt for the big hit
2) Running back into the WW about 2 sec before it runs off
3) Try to get hit by the cyclones with AMS up.
On 10 man all of those are doable without you even requiring any direct healing throughout the fight, while going for hit > exp (7.5) > mastery - so what's the point in focusing on more mastery? °_°
Besides I've been ranked 4 on our Ta'yak first kill so your rank 12 means nothing :O

[Scottyjscizzle]

I learned from this thread that people play differently and still are able to play effectively, who would have guessed.

[r_deniel]

So what about the fact that a missed hs also means a missed global? surely that = less rp gen and more than 450k damage over an 8 min fight. I guess you're just not that good at 'calculating'. I suggest you stop trying to make it out that everyone elses preference is wrong. Everything is situational. And i for one would take hit/exp caps over the minute increase in dmg taken to cut a very large chunk of time off a boss kill which - you guessed it, would cut down the amount of raid healing needed as well.
You can argue that dps should make up for more dps needed, but tanks and healers can find dps a shit ton easier than a dps already tuned for min maxing and doing everything perfectly. That is a fact.

Ta'yak dps is mostly about getting as much vengeance as possible this includes:
1) Telling your off tank to only taunt for the big hit

My OT also get top13 paladins at that fight. Taunting right after debuffs fades from another so no excessive vengeance only for 1 tank.

I lost about 450k damage for 8 minutes from possible SR and BB misses. If i i had caps it adds about another 400k damage, including white attacks.
~ 900k dmg. 25kk overall. 3% of my damage. 2500 dps. 400k rDPS. 0.6% of rDPS. Are you serious?
This 1500-2000 ratings much more useful in mastery. Do you like tank w\o trinkets? So why i should take off my tanking trinket with shitload mastery for 0.6% rDPS?

[Nillo]

3% of my damage. 2500 dps. 400k rDPS. 0.6% of rDPS. Are you serious?

Yeah.... sure I just wonder how you only get 3% damage out of ~7.5% chance to hit. Oh wait I don't - the reason you think you only get 3% damage is because your napkin math is bullshit.

[r_deniel]

Yeah.... sure I just wonder how you only get 3% damage out of ~7.5% chance to hit. Oh wait I don't - the reason you think you only get 3% damage is because your napkin math is bullshit.

DS ignore parry. RS can only miss. HS refreshes rune if missed. They make 40-50% dbk damage.
DPS loss only from BB, SR and white attacks. They make 15-25% overall.
Look at your logs and calculate how much you loose if some % of your spells miss.
Maybe your knowledge of class is shit?

[r_deniel]

GCD cap in blood? Dont hear that earlier.
Missed RS? ~100 RS in 8 min fight means 7-8 missed RS ~1-2 DS for fight.
COME ON! You can be all that stupid. You wanna dps? Take Death Siphon, stay in shit and take excessive vengeance. Finally, while offtanking dont crush boss in face! Caps dont do magic super dps.
Take logs and calc. For my fights difference between 0 hit\exp and caps means ~8k dps. 1% of rDPS.

[Nillo]

Take logs and calc. For my fights difference between 0 hit\exp and caps means ~8k dps. 1% of rDPS.

1% of raid dps is fairly significant just saying.

---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 08:24 PM ----------

There's nothing more irritating than bad maths.

Bad maths + horrible english that is extremely hard to understand >_>

[r_deniel]

1% of raid dps is fairly significant just saying.[COLOR="red"]

Last kill in berserk for me was Baleroc HM.

[Stacie]

I would say its more than 8k extra damage. With 7.5% in both I was kicking out at least 15k more on some fights others even more than that. Not only that but playing the DK with caps feels so much more nice and reliable. Makes tanking even more easy. The healers noticed no difference in healing me. But then why should they notice a difference I only lost like 2% avoidance and 4% mastery.

Doing more dps, healers having next to no change and tanking feels more nice. What's not to like about this method its win for everyone in the raid.

I would recommend this stat prio to anyone, just give it a try and ask for feedback from your healers when the raid is done. Don't tell the healers you changed anything just do it and after the fight ask if they noticed anything different with healing you. I guarantee they wont and that playing will feel better for yourself as threat will be more easy to maintain (even though its trivial anyway except on HM guards or something).

If you don't like it change back to how you were before it will cost less than 500g for this quick change. Well worth it.

[Pickwickman]

As long as you don't die from tank deaths, going for more Hit/Exp to increase Raid DPS is king. That's what I typed in that wall in short.

[Deleted]

GCD cap in blood? Dont hear that earlier.
Missed RS? ~100 RS in 8 min fight means 7-8 missed RS ~1-2 DS for fight.
COME ON! You can be all that stupid. You wanna dps? Take Death Siphon, stay in shit and take excessive vengeance. Finally, while offtanking dont crush boss in face! Caps dont do magic super dps.
Take logs and calc. For my fights difference between 0 hit\exp and caps means ~8k dps. 1% of rDPS.

7-8 Rs misses is a lot of potential extra runes and rp gain from them for more runes and more rp gen, the cycles repeats.
Nothing was said about a GCD 'cap' learn to read (and get a better grasp of the English language whilst you're at it). All that was said was that a missed ability = a loss of a GCD which means more rp loss = rune loss, white hit loss also accounts for more loss of rp and therefore runes.
No Dk tank even if reforged out of hit/exp will have 0 rating, you yourself said you have around 3% hit 4% expertise, or something like that.
I looked on WoL on 10 normal and HC in the top 20 and no log with a dk and pally tank was to be seen around the rank you claimed to be at, provide some evidence so we can check your logs to back up your claims. Be it if you were in the 25 man bracket which I didn't check.
The difference of caps can be substantial dps gain with only minor increase in dmg taken.
As an example, say a boss has 238 mill hp, thats 2.38 mill dmg lost which is around ~5k dps loss over 8 mins. Blade lord on hc 10 has aorund 195 mill iirc, and even that is far more than the 450k bullshit you pulled out of your arse earlier let alone the ~8k dps you mentioned... I've seen a fair few wipes with less hp left than that, not to mention that this example would require a fight to have linear non fluctuating dps, i.e. 0 dmg increase debuffs on boss via a mechanic/burn phase.
If you lost the hits during a burst phase with all cds up, that dps loss would be even more considerable.

I suggest you think about your own perception of class knowledge or even just your math, as you've just been told your math is shit by 3 ppl, 1 of which theorycrafts and has the highest raid experience possible over this content.