Monk Burst

[Totaltotemic]

You're playing a weighing game between the classes of "these have this, I have that, no one will take me." All while leaving out the human factor almost completely and applying standards to average play that are quite frankly unrealistic.

Do you also agree that balancing DPS is irrelevant because guilds will simply bring the better player? Is it okay that Elemental Shaman DPS is demonstrably lower than just about every other DPS spec on almost every fight because people will bring them if they're a good player? Of course not, because DPS balance and utility balance should be set to the same standards, utility is just a lot harder to measure.

It's not "these have this, I have that, no one will take me." It's "These have this AND THAT, I have 'that', if push comes to shove, I get left out if the raid needs 'this.'" This is the exact same issue as pre-4.2 Resto Shaman, and you know what happened? They started getting sat left and right and by the time they actually got Spirit Link Totem my server had a third of the raiding Resto Shamans that it used to because they couldn't find raid spots without a Tranquility, Aura Mastery, Divine Hymn, or Power Word: Barrier type skill. It mattered then and it matters now. If you don't play in the part of the game that things like this are balanced around or at a level where that balance matters, then it doesn't concern you, but that doesn't make it any less important in the overall scheme of things.

[Zonex]

You're being awfully aggressive about it; What he's trying to say is that, for him, he prefers to play with people he likes/has fun with.. which if you have been around is the vast vast majority of the players and raiders in this game. If you are going to minmax to the point where you are class stacking/replacing based on their utility, then by all means delete your monk and reroll a Disc priest or a Affli Warlock. No one is arguing about the fact that Monks dont bring a lot of stuff to the table, but the class is viable, it isn't 20% underperforming in DPS (or something equally drastic). The majority of the time, people will bring the player.. and if the class turns out to be bad, then they can reroll, or just be sat out.

If you are recruiting for your guild, and someone with a really impressive resume applies as a Monk, and your alternative is an average skilled "X" class/spec that is godly because of their utility, then chances are you're going to go further with the Monk. If however, you do feel that you are in a recruiting position where everyone that applies is of the same skill level, then by all means don't pick the monk. Difference in skill exists, the difference between average and above average is pretty obvious (world 100 ranking), but even in the top 3 guilds in the world, the difference between players of the same spec still exist. ie. Verdisha vs Sparkuggs, Lappe vs Zoomkins; they have mostly the same gear, why is the other one gaining that extra 5-8k on the fight?

For the past page, everyone's just been going back and forth; most players recruit with quite a big emphasis on player skill, only a small minority of guilds do not (where skill is assumed to be constant), and if that is the case, if you do yearn to be a part of a raiding group like that, you might as well just reroll. The notion of FOTM dictates that there is gonna be a best spec and there is gonna be that "shitty" spec in the tier, unfortunately, when it comes to utility Monks fall in that category, wait it out, this is only the first tier with Monks. The Monks' time will come. Advocating complete balance and equality in a game of this many variables is wishful thinking, after 8 years now, people should know its just not going to happen, the gap may get closer, but top-end guilds will always figure out which is better and which isn't, and for the sake of top tier progression, recruit accordingly.

[bofferding]

haven't read the whole post, but just wanted to add my 2cents. We might not have a burst, but our sustained damage is really good. I mean, sure I'd like to have 280k dps burst like our retribution paladin at a beginning of a fight, but what counts the most is the overall fight damage, and there I beat most of them. Whereas the paladin falls down to 80-90k dps on most fights, I manage to end with 90-105k dps average and higher total % damage.

It's not about burst in PVE, sure it's nice having big numbers, but what's important (after the fact that the boss is dead) is that you top the charts when he goes down.

I'm currently sitting at 496 ilvl, and I feel like monk dps is becoming better and better. It's a new class, no intensive simcraft has been done yet on our class, and much remains a mystery, with some fixes in 5.2, I guess we'll be more than fine, but even though, we are already a fine class.

Just my 2cents.

[Deleted]

Thing is having burst is a noticeable improvement over sustained damage, it means you'll be able to handle things such as the eggs on sinestra, tendons on spine and sparks on elegon a significant amount more easily. The problems with monk is all of it is built in to one ability with a huge ramp up and even then it's very lackluster, what monks really need is the ability to forego long term DPS in favor of more short term gains however there's no way to facilitate it without completely reworking something.

[Authentic]

I don't get the point though. Even for 'high end' raiding Monks are fine. I'm currently 11/16 heroic as a Monk and I've been topping meters on nearly all the fights.

For instance, take Garalon. I'm currently #1 on that as a WW Monk (on WoL), I'm also topping our guild's meters on that fight (over a fire mage, which is pretty bad and shouldn't happen). Sure, I'd do more dps there if i were a Rogue. But if I do 140k or 180k dps there won't change anything. We kill it on time with the 140k dps. If we wouldn't, it's also not my fault, it's the fault of someone who's not playing their class to its full potential (so in this case maybe the fire mage). The whole raid doesn't revolve around that one melee spot being given to a Monk or a Rogue, to a Warrior or a Ret, to an Enh shaman or a Feral druid. It revolves around every player doing the best they can. If that means you reach an enrage and you start blaming a Monk for playing a Monk, instead of someone else not playing their class properly, then your guildmanagement is disjointed.

Monks are in a fine spot. It'd be cool to go full zerg mode during Bloodlust, but it's something we don't need, since we can manage just fine. Just get used to the fact that some classes are better for some fights, but it all boils down to the player that's controlling the class.

and sparks on elegon a significant amount more easily. The problems with monk is all of it is built in to one ability with a huge ramp up and even then it's very lackluster, what monks really need is the ability to forego long term DPS in favor of more short term gains however there's no way to facilitate it without completely reworking something.

Monks have 0 rampup time, they don't need to get dots rolling, they don't need to get stacks of anything, they can just switch targets, do a chunk of damage and switch back. I don't know how you have any problem with sparks on Elegon, since I (and any halfdecent monk out there) kill the sparks probably faster than any other class in the raid. And I suppose you're referring to touch of death? Sure, ToD works great there, but it's 400k dmg, whereas a RSK crit is 300k dmg. Considering you'll have the Elegon damage increase (50%) your RSK or even your BoK will hit as hard or harder than your ToD.

[Crispin]

I'd much rather leave monks as they are, the CD burst stuff feels.... weak.

My former main was a Warrior and my main alt a ret paladin, and I gotta admit, having a class that's good outside of cd stacking is awesome, and it just feels right and strong enough all of the time.

Sure 1 mill execute crits are :-O, but when you're hitting like a girl the rest of the time, it does not feel great, they're not just gonna add burst to monks, without killing some of the current constant damage, in the end the damage output would be the same.


Also PvP wise, leave it as it is, again, pvping as a ret or warrior atm, is nothing but hoping you'll get a kill during your cd's, you know you're gonna work hard for it, as soon as your CD's wear off, and you havent gotten anyone down yet.

[Deleted]

Monks have 0 rampup time, they don't need to get dots rolling, they don't need to get stacks of anything, they can just switch targets, do a chunk of damage and switch back. I don't know how you have any problem with sparks on Elegon, since I (and any halfdecent monk out there) kill the sparks probably faster than any other class in the raid. And I suppose you're referring to touch of death? Sure, ToD works great there, but it's 400k dmg, whereas a RSK crit is 300k dmg. Considering you'll have the Elegon damage increase (50%) your RSK or even your BoK will hit as hard or harder than your ToD.

I think you misinterpreted what I'm saying, I know monk sustained DPS is fine and I understand there's no initial ramp up on target switches but there's nothing to facilitate burst damage past building up tigerseye stacks. It's a pretty big hamper when it comes to situations where above average DPS is needed to be sustained for short periods of time, i.e. eggs, tendons, sparks and and even better example raggy 1 meteor. Sparks is perhaps a bad example because of their relatively low health pool, but you should understand the problem I'm presenting.

[Magpai]

In raids your brew stacks reset to 0 when u pull boss

Are you serious? Lol.

I wish they'd do the same with pots honestly and just balance bosses around one pot (which they probably do). People focusing on pre-potting is a tumor on the game.

[Authentic]

I think you misinterpreted what I'm saying, I know monk sustained DPS is fine and I understand there's no initial ramp up on target switches but there's nothing to facilitate burst damage past building up tigerseye stacks. It's a pretty big hamper when it comes to situations where above average DPS is needed to be sustained for short periods of time, i.e. eggs, tendons, sparks and and even better example raggy 1 meteor. Sparks is perhaps a bad example because of their relatively low health pool, but you should understand the problem I'm presenting.

Well, having played multiple classes - and do correct me if this is a gaping hole in my understanding of tactics - I never never use anything big to burst down additional adds such as tendons, eggs, sparks or any other shit some dragon is throwing at me. So why should Monks have a cooldown for these additional targets?

The only times when for instance Shamans are doing substantial amounts of damage is when their Ascendance, Fire Elemental Totem or Elemental Mastery is up. And those aren't cooldowns you use whenever there's an add that needs to be killed. I think you're not even presenting a problem, but just an aspect of the game, something every class has to struggle with.
And even if there's a class that has some short CD burst skill (such as Killing Spree on a rogue, I remember using that on Tendons), you can hardly make a case where every class should have such a skill. Seeing as the vast majority of fights don't even introduce any add-burst phases. In MoP I count Gara'jal, Elegon, Tsulong and Lei Shi where adds with little to mediocre amounts of health spawn that need to be killed within a certain amount of time, all of which are adds that I wouldn't even want to pop a cooldown on, because they're so ridiculously fine to manage.

These threads always end up in people making up a bunch of problems with some make-believe solutions that would be sick for any class. Diversity is one of the great aspects of the game, as long as no class is left behind. And at the moment I don't feel Monks are left behind on any front. They do great sustained damage, they have great survivability, they can burst where it's needed and they're a great asset to the raid.

[Totaltotemic]

Well, having played multiple classes - and do correct me if this is a gaping hole in my understanding of tactics - I never never use anything big to burst down additional adds such as tendons, eggs, sparks or any other shit some dragon is throwing at me. So why should Monks have a cooldown for these additional targets?

I don't know how you can say this if you're 11/16. You don't save cooldowns for Heroic Wind Lord Recklessness? You don't save them for Get Away!? Double damage on Garalon legs? When Amber-Shaper stacks hit 5 instead of 0? Why does it have to be an "add-burst" phase for you to want the ability to burst? Most bosses have parts that make a lot of sense to delay cooldowns by 10, 15, 30, or 60 seconds depending on the benefit. Sometimes those windows are crucial to the survival of the raid. Literally every single DPS spec has cooldowns for these times, how can you say it's not relevant just because they're adds and not a burst time for the boss?

[Authentic]

I don't know how you can say this if you're 11/16. You don't save cooldowns for Heroic Wind Lord Recklessness? You don't save them for Get Away!? Double damage on Garalon legs? When Amber-Shaper stacks hit 5 instead of 0? Why does it have to be an "add-burst" phase for you to want the ability to burst? Most bosses have parts that make a lot of sense to delay cooldowns by 10, 15, 30, or 60 seconds depending on the benefit. Sometimes those windows are crucial to the survival of the raid. Literally every single DPS spec has cooldowns for these times, how can you say it's not relevant just because they're adds and not a burst time for the boss?

Have you even read anything? It's about switching to adds. Not about when or when not to pop your cooldowns. I'm not popping cds on adds on Tsulong, Gara'jal, Lei Shi and Elegon. Are you?
Monks, and probably every other class, don't have any cooldowns up for adds because of everything you just said.

Next time read what the discussion is about.

[Totaltotemic]

Have you even read anything? It's about switching to adds. Not about when or when not to pop your cooldowns. I'm not popping cds on adds on Tsulong, Gara'jal, Lei Shi and Elegon. Are you?

I'm pretty sure he was talking about burst, regardless if it's on a new add or not. After all, eggs and tendons aren't "adds", they're the main DPS check of the encounters they exist in.

[Authentic]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about burst, regardless if it's on a new add or not. After all, eggs and tendons aren't "adds", they're the main DPS check of the encounters they exist in.

Then do point out where adds such as Tendons are currently the main DPS check, and where you think Monk's are in such a bad position that a burst increase is justified in your opinion.

[Totaltotemic]

Then do point out where adds such as Tendons are currently the main DPS check, and where you think Monk's are in such a bad position that a burst increase is justified in your opinion.

Why do you keep spouting this idea that adds are the only time that burst is relevant? I said not 3 posts ago several situations this tier where burst is important or at least an overall dps increase.

[Authentic]

Why do you keep spouting this idea that adds are the only time that burst is relevant? I said not 3 posts ago several situations this tier where burst is important or at least an overall dps increase.

Because that's what we were talking about. Not about when to use your cooldowns on Windlord or whatever.

[Totaltotemic]

Because that's what we were talking about. Not about when to use your cooldowns on Windlord or whatever.

Pretty sure you're the only one talking about that, Dumbfounded even said that you misrepresented what he said. Everyone knows that WW doesn't have ramp-up time, but that's target-switching, not burst. Two entirely different things used on different types of fights.

[Callimonk]

I honestly think that this thread from Blood Legion's public forum provides evidence of why a high-end guild would bring us:

Sure we don't have utility. Sure we don't necessarily have burst (outside of pooling TeB for a tendon situation - which obviously isn't "true" burst like Wings on a retadin, but would still allow us to do a pretty decent amount of damage on that type of fight). But we are one of the best melee for single-target fights. I'm consistently able to top melee meters on fights such as Vizier Zor'lok just because of the no ramp-up time and not relying on a cleave to do lots of damage. Also, our Fists of Fury does make us viable on Garalon - not more viable than a rogue or a DK, but enough to justify bringing a Windwalker. I am typically competitive on that fight.

Yes - I do agree that we require more utility. But I think we are still a perfectly viable spec, in the right hands.

Would a raid want more than one of us? Most likely, no. I couldn't justify it, even in a 25m setting. But I think having at least 1 WW for strong single-target damage (and some "utility" for saving the raid with Touch of Karma so that we can hold the boss if the tank were to die) should still be considered by top-end guilds.

[Totaltotemic]

High single-target damage isn't something that can be sustained for very long. One day there will be some hotfix nerfs or buffs, or maybe in the next major patch, and that won't exist anymore. It's a very transient thing, and I highly doubt that Monks are actually balanced specifically to have higher than normal single-target DPS, so I wouldn't count on that being Windwalker's "thing" even as far as next raid tier.

[Deleted]

Have you even read anything? It's about switching to adds. Not about when or when not to pop your cooldowns. I'm not popping cds on adds on Tsulong, Gara'jal, Lei Shi and Elegon. Are you?
Monks, and probably every other class, don't have any cooldowns up for adds because of everything you just said.

Next time read what the discussion is about.

You're picking something I already admitted was a bad example and then you've taken it into the realm of absurdity by giving other scenarios that are only linked because of the presence of adds. The reason I gave heroic elegon as an example of needing burst damage was because on early progression killing the final waves actually did require some sort of an output boost. You've completely misunderstood the premise of what I've said.

It's not a hard concept to understand, since monk DPS is so linear over the course of a fight it will end up being problematic in early progression due to the lack of the ability to produce extra DPS for a short time span. It's clearly obvious this is meant to be an intended part of the windwalker spec, tigerseye delivers exactly what I'm talking about but it's stacking is largely unpredictable unless you can estimate accurately the amount of chi you will spend before a given part of the fight where it's required.

[herpecin]

first trick is make sure you start with max chi, starting with a 10 stack of TB would be best but you cant do it consistently like you can starting with 4/5 chi.

dont forget FoF, many monks dont use it and it has a crazy good chi/dmg ratio.

drop haste until you need to use energizing brew on CD to maintain ability usage, this will also help you avoid capping during lust.

if you know when lust is coming obviously try to have TB above 8 or so, but dont let it sit at 10 ever. i found a goof time to use it is right before FoF, its usualy at 4-5 stack and getting 120k crits every .7 secs is rather nice.

also you can game mastery procs to use 3+ BoK in a row to stack the DoT up rather high to line up with TB or tinkets.