Anduin/Operation Shieldwall (Major Spoiler)!

[shadofall]

On topic: I don't think Blizzard will move Dalaran to anywhere. Too much would need to be changed in the LK expansion, and I don't think it's worth the effort to them. Dalaran is too central to the continent to be removed. I also don't see them prohibiting the Horde there, for the same reason. Sometimes, the story that makes the most sense loses a fight against game rules and balance.

no they could just duplicate dal in mop and have it in both places (remember we already deal with time discrepancys between content as is). theirs actually an item in the revamped SM Lib (or what ever that side is now) Ancient tomb of teleport DAL, it teaches mages another portal spell to dal's crater. where i suspect dal will return to.

[Lovestar]

Pretty good stuff.

Although it seems we're back to the Lich King "I could kill you... but instead I'll make a flimsy excuse to just ride away!" stuff, which sort of flattens the threat a bit.

[Combatbutler]

no they could just duplicate dal in mop and have it in both places (remember we already deal with time discrepancys between content as is). theirs actually an item in the revamped SM Lib (or what ever that side is now) Ancient tomb of teleport DAL, it teaches mages another portal spell to dal's crater. where i suspect dal will return to.

Why should they, it serves no real purpose to move Dalaran back there, especially since there are no humans left in that area, I doubt we will see Dalaran anytime soon as an Alliance city ingame.

[darqhur]

yea except i dont see Jaina picking up a cursed weapon to completly corrupt her, this was the final key to arthas, up till this point his path was still uncertain

Although it's not really a cursed weapon Jaina did steal the focusing iris and hide it so that she can use it later. That seems kinda off kilter. She has a nuke that she chose not to tell anybody about. She is jumping to the most violent conclusions herself. It seems like Jaina probably got a little of the bad guy brush applied to her.

I'm just saying it would be hilarious to fight Jaina as a raid boss also. Like maybe you are raiding Orgrimmar and she decides she isn't happy with the way things are being done and starts going aggro. Then the raid has to attack her. The way she is jumping off all half cocked all the time now feels like something has to give.

[shadofall]

Why should they, it serves no real purpose to move Dalaran back there, especially since there are no humans left in that area, I doubt we will see Dalaran anytime soon as an Alliance city ingame.

same reason they gave us a permantly destroyed theramore in game. it wasnt really nessecery from a game play point of view but it was done to give the illusion that world does change


while i doubt it would be a major city i just suspect it will end up being a quest point and putting it back as a matter of lore possibly with a portal to and from somewhere.

[Rilec]

Again, players are judging the whole Horde nation. As Jaina did.

The major problem here is Garrosh and Kor'Korn elites that are fallowing him because he is the Horde Warcheaf.
The only person that need to be judged is Garrosh himself, not a whole Horde!

Someone as lore master should make a topic about Court for Horde and Alliance villians so we see all facts! I am also mad at jaina because she order genocide in Dalaran on sunreavers...

Except that's incorrect. Most of the Horde could use some "house cleaning". Like it or not, Garrosh practically is the horde. The Horde should have to answer for the crimes committed in their name. Pinning all of the aggression on Garrosh is a cop-out, considering Thrall's rule had many of the same problems. It's a direct issue with the characterization of the Orcs and it needs to be addressed for the Horde to grow into a better faction.

Don't get me wrong, Vol'jin has a lot of potential. I don't personally like Baine or his decisions very much, but he can be salvaged. But the Horde needs more than a slap on the wrist here. The Orcs need to be beaten down and shamed in an attempt to tone down the "conquest" and "pillage" aspects of their culture. The Tauren and Trolls wind up getting dragged through the mud because of prominent issues with the Orcs.

Personally, I want the Horde to grow into a true pragmatic faction with both light and dark grey elements. It's not fun knowing that you're sitting on ticking time bombs of unambiguous chaos like Garrosh and Sylvanas, knowing there's nothing you can do about things but realizing that eventually you're going to be stuck holding the idiot ball again while the faction you enjoy is once again out of control. It's not like anyone can even say "Oh my, I'm -so- surprised!" at this point, because just about anyone looking at the story can wince and expect that eventually another prominent element of the Horde is going to go rogue and make everyone look bad.

[shadofall]

Although it's not really a cursed weapon Jaina did steal the focusing iris and hide it so that she can use it later. That seems kinda off kilter. She has a nuke that she chose not to tell anybody about. She is jumping to the most violent conclusions herself. It seems like Jaina probably got a little of the bad guy brush applied to her.

I'm just saying it would be hilarious to fight Jaina as a raid boss also. Like maybe you are raiding Orgrimmar and she decides she isn't happy with the way things are being done and starts going aggro. Then the raid has to attack her. The way she is jumping off all half cocked all the time now feels like something has to give.

actually she was about to use it on org. one of those things that wasnt covered very well in game. but when she took it not only was she very very angry. but it was even suggested that the expsure she had from the blast that altered her apperance also was effecting in on other ways to a degree. now ironicly that nuke will now be in the hands of the alliance. burried with in dal where its suposed to be for safe keeping as dicided by the former aspect of the blue dragon flight that it was safest there after jaina came to her senses., altho i will say that energy prob has some lasting effects on her but i dont see it being her "corruption point"

[Rivellana]

The Horde should have to answer for the crimes committed in their name.

How so though? Obviously it comes down to what the writers want to write, but, how would it be fair if they chose to make the Alliance pin all of Garrosh's sins on all Horde? Even innocents who had nothing to do with it, can do nothing about it, and end up paying for it just because of their race and the faction that their race and leaders chose for them?

I don't think they'll go down that path simply based on the fact that it looks like both factions are somehow "teaming up" to kill Garrosh in the end...at least I hope they won't go down that path. I'm not a roleplayer but I do still like my characters to have some semblance of morality.

[Nights]

Epic... Now Saurfang got smt to do with garrosh finally :P i rly want to see Saurfang going against garrosh aside with sylvanas and vol'jin!

Sylvanas for for warchief!

[Trassk]

I think the big thing about Stratholme was that Arthas was obviously starting to crack beforehand, and he couldn't handle the strain of doing what needed to be done despite the moral ramifications. He lost his mind in there, and that, coupled with the Culling itself, is why Stratholme stands today as an object lesson in tragedy.

edit: Glad to see Anduin lives after all. Now that Blizz tossed Jaina into the lolcrazy pile, he and his pop are the only voices of reason in the Alliance that get any worthwhile screentime anymore.

You know the funny thing. Once again, blizzard shows a pure lack of continuity between there creative department in how the story progresses. With Jaina in this case, they had her go insane in tides of war, but when she was (spoilers) fighting against Thrall, and kalec stopped her, she lamented about how she will not follow the same path Arthas did, knowing what he would become.
And now, it seems as if that realization was ignored in favor of a revamp of her thoughts on it, yet from a lore reader's pov, it makes her look like she's bouncing back and forth between feelings like a yoyo.

[Deleted]

Garrosh's evil laugh is win.

[Trassk]

How so though? Obviously it comes down to what the writers want to write, but, how would it be fair if they chose to make the Alliance pin all of Garrosh's sins on all Horde? Even innocents who had nothing to do with it, can do nothing about it, and end up paying for it just because of their race and the faction that their race and leaders chose for them?

I don't think they'll go down that path simply based on the fact that it looks like both factions are somehow "teaming up" to kill Garrosh in the end...at least I hope they won't go down that path. I'm not a roleplayer but I do still like my characters to have some semblance of morality.

I feel exactly the same way. I'm very much absorbed in the story that knowing my character is involved in these events, I want to feel a sense of morality in my actions and where it leads to, not just get told i need to act in a certain way because the game says I have to.

---------- Post added 2012-12-12 at 07:21 PM ----------

Garrosh's evil laugh is win.

You know another bald headed man with an evil laugh?

[Okacz]

Epic... Now Saurfang got smt to do with garrosh finally :P i rly want to see Saurfang going against garrosh aside with sylvanas and vol'jin!

Sylvanas for for warchief!

What has Sylvanas to do with this mess anyway? She hates Garrosh for calling her a bitch and remarking that ressurecting fallen soldiers is bad, mkay? Maybe for a great Horde support in her unsuccessfull campaign against Gilneas?

And Sylvanas for the Warchief... I guess even with all the dislike I have to Alliance I would faction swap in that moment. Even into a gnome.

[Trassk]

What has Sylvanas to do with this mess anyway? She hates Garrosh for calling her a bitch and remarking that ressurecting fallen soldiers is bad, mkay? Maybe for a great Horde support in her unsuccessfull campaign against Gilneas?

And Sylvanas for the Warchief... I guess even with all the dislike I have to Alliance I would faction swap in that moment. Even into a gnome.

Yeah, if they swapped one insane leader for the horde to an even worse one, I'd just throw in the towel, be convinced that blizzard lost there minds.

And no matter how much I try to play my worgen or draenei alts, it feels like being sat on a bus full of stinky hobos.

[Rilec]

How so though? Obviously it comes down to what the writers want to write, but, how would it be fair if they chose to make the Alliance pin all of Garrosh's sins on all Horde? Even innocents who had nothing to do with it, can do nothing about it, and end up paying for it just because of their race and the faction that their race and leaders chose for them?

I don't think they'll go down that path simply based on the fact that it looks like both factions are somehow "teaming up" to kill Garrosh in the end...at least I hope they won't go down that path. I'm not a roleplayer but I do still like my characters to have some semblance of morality.

I don't feel that "innocents" should be specifically targeted, but the overall orcish mindset needs to be significantly altered. The only realistic way to do this without looking ridiculous is by having the Orcs as a whole at the very least suffer for the popular mentality of "Take what we want and damn the consequences." There's absolutely no reason the Trolls and Tauren should be dragged through the mud because of the "conqueror's mindset" that the Orcs appear to overwhelmingly believe in.

There is zero reason to believe that the Alliance would realistically blame only Garrosh when his policies are widely supported by the majority of the Horde. It seems that the only time the majority of the Horde will turn on Garrosh is when those same policies start having negative effects on Horde society. "I was just following orders" cannot and should not placate those harmed by any military or political force.

[Rivellana]

There is zero reason to believe that the Alliance would realistically blame only Garrosh when his policies are widely supported by the majority of the Horde. It seems that the only time the majority of the Horde will turn on Garrosh is when those same policies start having negative effects on Horde society. "I was just following orders" cannot and should not placate those harmed by any military or political force.

I do actually agree with you about the orcs. The vast majority of them seem to just blindly have followed their leaders over time. That was the whole reason having Thrall as Warchief was actually good for them for awhile, in that their bloodlust was kept somewhat under control. I'm sure there are still plenty of the orc population who don't agree with what Garrosh is doing but are still blindly following.

However, it seems like the other Horde races leaders have long been starting to turn away from him. Aethas Sunreaver made a huge mistake in allowing Garrosh to move forces through Dalaran, obviously. However, Theron, Baine and Vol'Jin all can't stand Garrosh and what he's done. I don't really think Sylvanas counts either seeing as her and the undead seem to have their own agenda and it's not based on blind Alliance hate.

At this point I'd almost compare it to a mutiny though. They'll all listen to the ship's captain and follow his orders until they both believe that they have the support to stand against him and that he does something so severe that they simply cannot morally justify letting it occur.

[shadofall]

I do actually agree with you about the orcs. The vast majority of them seem to just blindly have followed their leaders over time. That was the whole reason having Thrall as Warchief was actually good for them for awhile, in that their bloodlust was kept somewhat under control. I'm sure there are still plenty of the orc population who don't agree with what Garrosh is doing but are still blindly following.

However, it seems like the other Horde races leaders have long been starting to turn away from him. Aethas Sunreaver made a huge mistake in allowing Garrosh to move forces through Dalaran, obviously. However, Theron, Baine and Vol'Jin all can't stand Garrosh and what he's done. I don't really think Sylvanas counts either seeing as her and the undead seem to have their own agenda and it's not based on blind Alliance hate.

At this point I'd almost compare it to a mutiny though. They'll all listen to the ship's captain and follow his orders until they both believe that they have the support to stand against him and that he does something so severe that they simply cannot morally justify letting it occur.

Aethas had no clue about the horde using dal to get to darnassus, this was performed by yet another one of the sunreavers who was loyal to garrosh and the horde instead of dal,

infact at the point that this happens the big guy over at silvermoon is actually negotiating with varian to bring silvermoon back in to the alliance.. as he belives garroshes horde is the same path kael lead his people down. and the sunreavers (those that were truely loyal to dal) now effectivly blame garrosh and nd Jaina for their exile from dal and this pretty much has set the stage for all over silvermoon to be aginst garrosh, and will of course these events will keep silvermoon out of the alliance.

as, as things play out the horde was energized by garrosh originally. orc. tauren troll, so on (mostly the younger) who saw him as a war hero. course we know this. but while there are some that deftly loyal to garrosh.more and more become displeased. however since garrosh has his own personal assasin blowing up inns its hard to not do anything but follow orders till the time is right.

[Rivellana]

however since garrosh has his own personal assasin blowing up inns its hard to not do anything but follow orders till the time is right.

Yes, yes, I agree completely. :P

At this point I'd be of the belief that there are more Horde that dislike and would be happy to move against Garrosh than there are Garrosh loyalists left.

[Deleted]

Again, players are judging the whole Horde nation. As Jaina did.

The major problem here is Garrosh and Kor'Korn elites that are fallowing him because he is the Horde Warcheaf.
The only person that need to be judged is Garrosh himself, not a whole Horde!

Someone as lore master should make a topic about Court for Horde and Alliance villians so we see all facts! I am also mad at jaina because she order genocide in Dalaran on sunreavers...

The major problems here are Orcs and Undead. The Orcs for the most part especially the younger generation agree with Garrosh. The forsaken are just deep at heart bad people.

And ousting the Sunreavers from Dalaran isn't genocide, in fact seeing how they helped me mount an attack on Darnassus she's justified.

[shadofall]

Yes, yes, I agree completely. :P

At this point I'd be of the belief that there are more Horde that dislike and would be happy to move against Garrosh than there are Garrosh loyalists left.

unfortantly the due garrosh rule by fear and blowing up of inns. the horde that disproves of garrosh isnt sure of their numbers.. ultimately it going to be left to the dude your one screwed up SOB moment to bring them all to geather. prob going to be more so him throwing the other races under the bus like he has done the blood elves now. and orc players will represent the orc population who are fed up with him, along with a token hand full of npcs, (older orcs mostly)

The major problems here are Orcs and Undead. The Orcs for the most part especially the younger generation agree with Garrosh. The forsaken are just deep at heart bad people.

And ousting the Sunreavers from Dalaran isn't genocide, in fact seeing how they helped me mount an attack on Darnassus she's justified.

sure the forsaken tend to be pretty rotten especially as of late. but they arnt going to take garrosh throwing them under the bus. which he will find a way...