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  1. #1

    Enhancement shaman DPS

    So ive got my enhancement shaman all raidgeared and doing fairly decent dps.

    When i looked up the statweights on all the different stat pages they all said Agi > Hit/exp (until cap) > Mastery > Haste > Crit . But i wanted to play abit around with it.

    I still remember the good old wotlk haste days so i though id give it a go in the reforger and what do you know. It increased 2k.
    Looks like haste is back
    well not in the "all in" on haste like it was in wotlk but it makes it more interresting to play enhancement and WAY more fun Agi is by far still the best stat

    Here are my samples from Recount:

    Sample 1: Statweights: Mastery > Haste > Crit - This gave me 49.899,6 Dps after a 2 minute period.

    Sample 2: Statweights: Haste > Crit > Mastery - This gave me 48.606,9 Dps after a 2 minute period.

    Sample 3: Statweights: Haste > Mastery > Crit - This gave me 51.754,4 Dps after a 2 minute period.

    At all samples i am Hit/exp capped of course.
    At all samples i did not use any cd´s nor buffs besides weapon-enchants and lightning shield of course

    All in all i gained almost 2k dps on a simple reforge. Im gonna test it in tonights raid and see how it goes in a raid situation.

    Granted the difference might be because of RNG but an interresting result none the less.

    Just thought i would throw it out there

    I would welcome any further ideas since im always looking for ways to increase my dps

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral zenga's Avatar
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    Jun 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopewielder View Post
    At all samples i did not use any cd´s nor buffs besides weapon-enchants and lightning shield of course
    Well since one will use cd's on any actual fight, it's not really a good way to measure the dps outside of cd's.

  3. #3
    All my cds have will have the same increase on both mastery and haste. Thats why i didnt use them.

    But i will find out during tonights raid if it really is a better way to go

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 04:05 PM ----------

    Besides i wanted to see how my dps would stack out between my cooldowns

  4. #4
    Since most fights in current tier are filled with running, swapping, stopping dps etc, mastery just crushes haste.

  5. #5
    Guess we will find out tonight. But i hardly think thats going to be an issiue.

    And no matter what. It will never "crush" haste. At the very most its going to be a few K under what i normally do.

    If a person doesnt know what hes doing and constantly looking at hits buttons because its going to fast then yeah mastery will be better. But in that case i would recommend a few hours of training before trying to raid

  6. #6
    Brewmaster Cairm's Avatar
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    Dec 2009
    Montréal, Canada
    I'd like to have your follow up on that after your raid

  7. #7
    1st of all u should sim the diferent reforges since depens really on ur gear about haste mastery or crit, the more stats u have from one the more dps it gives u, ej if u have ratios like 16:8:4 if u go for haste u might have like 4:3:2 and so on, 2nd try out on bosses(lfr or even )
    With my actual gear(491) with 476 weapons , if i go for haste orange gems and haste>crit>mastery reforge i got 90,800k dps on patchwerk sim, with mastery>crit>haste i have 91,200, also, haste might work better when ur weapons are better, more hits more dmg from autos and also haste lowers ur WF cooldown, with this acc i dont have permision to link links, char name is darlla on eu-uldum

  8. #8
    One 2 minute sample on a dummy is not conclusive of anything really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zillionhz View Post
    By fiber be purged

  9. #9
    Wait until Endus gets here to get your theory crafting behind handed to you XD.

    Ok, let me say this:
    1) A single log from a single raid: not even close enough to make any kind of conclussion, that will be the first thing to be said bout all this.

    2) As far as I can tell all secondary stats are pretty close to each other with mastery and haste a bit ahead of crit so you can´t really be too wrong with any of them.

    3) The big difference between why you might want to favor haste over mastery (or the other way around) is that haste requires greater uptime to be as effective as mastery (at least thats how I understand it) and with all the target switching and running around in the current raiding tier mastery is a more reliable stat.

    So in light of all the moving around required all thru this tier of raiding many enhancers are favoring Mastery over Haste because thats supposed to yield better results. At least thats how I understand it after reading all the theorycrafting around on the matter.

  10. #10
    Banned Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Ottawa, ON
    2 minute sessions really aren't enough to get usable data for what you're trying to do. To give you an idea, when I was testing proc chances for Rolling Thunder and Overload on the beta for Chain Lightning, I spammed dummies for about 2 hours. That got me some preliminary data that was "close enough" to draw some conclusions, but proc chances are also significantly easier to work out than stat weights, since they're just a single check, whereas stat weights rely on a whole host of factors and you really need to be playing perfectly to get that to work.

    This is why we use sims for stat weights; you need thousands of hours of combat to get enough data to make firm conclusions. Getting that in-game isn't realistic, so we use sims to approximate it. Otherwise, RNG and such are going to be throwing your numbers out of whack more than the stat weights are.

  11. #11
    Well ive had two raids since the dummy and i can deffinately feel a difference. Granted on a boss like will of the emperor its worse but on pretty much everything else im doing a wee bit more than before

    Might go back to mastery at some point but for now im gonna stick with haste

  12. #12
    Mastery is a direct boost to Ascendance.
    Since you are doing it without any CD, you are getting wrong results.

    Our second best stat is mastery by a huge margin.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopewielder View Post
    Well ive had two raids since the dummy and i can deffinately feel a difference. Granted on a boss like will of the emperor its worse but on pretty much everything else im doing a wee bit more than before

    Might go back to mastery at some point but for now im gonna stick with haste
    That's no where near a reliable test data. You could have just gotten "lucky" and the next 10 times you do that boss (assuming no gear changes) you might end up worse.

    Its ok that you are checking your logs and trying to figure out whats best but doing that by such method isn't scientific at all. You could have stacked crit and gotten the same results or maybe better ones.

    The results are meaningless if the method to obtained them are flawed no matter how favorable they are.

  14. #14
    Brewmaster Nurabashi's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
    Backyard. Digging for oil.

    Edit: Now that I have read the actual thing fully.. I'm an idiot.
    Troll's Life Mon.

  15. #15
    placebo effect

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarod View Post
    placebo effect
    ^ This. It's confirmation bias. You cannot after a couple raids simply go "it feels a bit better" as an argument to present new theorycraft. Theorycraft (short of being tested extensively) requires accurate sims. There is so much variation between

    You're looking for a dps increase with X style, so when the dps increase occurs you notice it. There are a thousand factors that are involved, and you probably disregard the equal/lower dps records because in your mind they aren't what you're looking for.

  17. #17
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Need to remember that Ascendance is affected by Mastery. Your auto-attacks does pure nature damage... Mastery 4 life!!!

    But with ilevel 492 I actually get these stats weight:
    Haste = 1.64
    Crit = 1.48
    Mastery = 1.46

    I remember seeing someone posting a graph on how Haste climbs past crit and mastery by alot when you're getting higher ilevel gear.
    But you need to remember that for fights such as Windlord. Where we're basically only doing aoe damage for a long time, Mastery would be alot better than Haste.. for obvious reasons.

    And remember to maximize the usage of haste, you would have to be in melee range at all times. My point is that simming isn't always 100% accurate.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Levva's Avatar
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    Aug 2008
    Aberdeen, Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    Wait until Endus gets here to get your theory crafting behind handed to you XD.
    Can I stomp all over his ridiculous assertions too???

    Theorycrafting has always been plagued by the "well I tried X on a target dummy for a couple of minutes or in a couple of raids and it felt better so you guys who spend countless hours testing things working out the precise details of procs writing simulators such as EnhSim, SimCraft and Rawr Enhance must be wrong as my gut feeling is that X is better."

    In my day I wrote a long rant pointing out precisely why your "testing" was flawed and backed it up with statistics. If that failed I simply locked the thread and in worst cases banned the idiots. Endus has more patience than me

    However that said the whole point of theorycrafting is to welcome suggestions to investigate try new avenues and challenge existing models. The difference is that to be taken seriously you need to provide solid data. Share your findings, contribute fully to the debate and be prepared to be proved wrong or bask in the glory of having turned the debate to something new.

    The key element is that you engage and provide proper data. Not just turn up on forum and say I tested for 2 minutes and it "felt better" in a raid.
    Old Sig please ignore:
    Author of The official Rawr addon - view your optimised gear in game and ShockAndAwe addon - An Enhancement Shaman Max dps addon
    Click here to join Elitist Jerks and participate in detailed theorycrafting discussions.
    For Cataclysm raiding use EnhSim the Enhancement Shaman DPS simulator to work out what stats are best for your personal gear & talent setup.

  19. #19
    Because I was curious, here's OPs sim with the basic simcraft settings:

    Stat weights and expected DPS:
    Haste, Mastery, and Crit are very very close, but haste is actually the weakest of the three, although by a thin margin. Of course that may be because he reforged so much to haste already.

    DPS plots per stat (I'm still new to this and could use some help)
    Does this stand for the proposition that:
    1. He should increase mastery to increase dps up to another 2-3k dps?
    2. As his DPS increases, his mastery will continue to more valuable?
    Last edited by houndstooth; 2012-12-11 at 03:24 PM.

  20. #20
    It varies quite a bit depending on gear for us at the moment.

    With the gear i'm using i get only 0.01 difference between Mastery and Haste (Mastery being the stronger)

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