Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[sarahtasher]

There are cases were a home owner, defended themselves using a AR-15 against multiple armed intruders. I have fired the AR-15 many times and have a handgun. There is a big advantage to the AR-15 against multiple targets.

If you are not having a lifestyle involving driving to lots of pharmacies to buy Sudafed, do you REALLY think being attacked by multiple home invaders is a likely scenario.

Here is a serious hint : the NRA and gunlover glamourize every single case they can find of ''law abiding civilian defending themselves with a gun''. They pretend that people protect their lives ''hundreds of thousands of time'' each year with guns. You don't find odd that they struggle to find more than one case per week ? (Hint : if there was 10 cases of people fending off ''gangs of rapists'' with AK-47 per day, it would not still amount to 1% of the cases claimed by the NRA)

[Ghostpanther]

If you are not having a lifestyle involving driving to lots of pharmacies to buy Sudafed, do you REALLY think being attacked by multiple home invaders is a likely scenario.

Here is a serious hint : the NRA and gunlover glamourize every single case they can find of ''law abiding civilian defending themselves with a gun''. They pretend that people protect their lives ''hundreds of thousands of time'' each year with guns. You don't find odd that they struggle to find more than one case per week ? (Hint : if there was 10 cases of people fending off ''gangs of rapists'' with AK-47 per day, it would not still amount to 1% of the cases claimed by the NRA)

I can. I have posted several here. But they are cases which are rarely reported by main stream media.

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which is great in school

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yes they are. But they are also easy to see by a guard versus a handgun. :P And the largest school shooting in the US was done using 2 handguns. Va Tech college. 32 people shot dead.

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If you are not having a lifestyle involving driving to lots of pharmacies to buy Sudafed, do you REALLY think being attacked by multiple home invaders is a likely scenario.

Here is a serious hint : the NRA and gunlover glamourize every single case they can find of ''law abiding civilian defending themselves with a gun''. They pretend that people protect their lives ''hundreds of thousands of time'' each year with guns. You don't find odd that they struggle to find more than one case per week ? (Hint : if there was 10 cases of people fending off ''gangs of rapists'' with AK-47 per day, it would not still amount to 1% of the cases claimed by the NRA)

Of course it is not likely. lol! If it was, I would have bars on my windows and would try my best to get a AR 15, and thousands of rounds. Not to mention having thick metal doors.

And there is no pretend. Home invasions happen.

[sarahtasher]

I can. I have posted several here. But they are cases which are rarely reported by main stream media.

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Yes they are. But they are also easy to see by a guard versus a handgun. :P And the largest school shooting in the US was done using 2 handguns. Va Tech college. 32 people shot dead.

Yes do it. That's not going to be a surprise. The NRA use always the same list of 15-20 people who stopped mass shootings over 20 years. They ''prove'' it was not reported in the media by linking articles in the media. However, my point is the same : considering the differences in population between 1980 and 2018 (the NRA ''millions of people'' figure is from 198o), you will need to find around 200 cases per day to reach a figure remotely close to what the NRA claims.

[Deldavala]

America has a Full-automatic gun ban right?

So Semi-automatic is still legal. Such as the AR-15, Almost all handguns, tons of hunting rifles.

So this ban is restricting them even more? I can agree that some modifications should be illegal(like bump stocks), but banning Semi-Automatic weapons is not going to go very well. And if I am not mistaken, isnt most gun related crime in the US performed with Handguns?

There is also no clear definition of an assault weapon. Is it just because a weapon looks military grade that it will be banned? Or is it something else?

[petej0]

Yes they are. But they are also easy to see by a guard versus a handgun. :P And the largest school shooting in the US was done using 2 handguns. Va Tech college. 32 people shot dead.

Shhh...lets not let facts get in the way. Lets also not forget how the system failed in this case. The kid had mental issues and would not have passed a background check if the therapist passed along his information like she should have. You think the system would have been fixed but then we get the theater shooter who passed through the same cracks with the therapist not sharing information. So its nice to have and pass "feel good" legislation but when it doesnt work dont come trying to make more legislation to cover up the fault of Federal and State agencies not doing their jobs. You could argue that people feel the need to arm themselves because our Federal, State and Local agencies have failed so many times on so many different levels.

[Ghostpanther]

Yes do it. That's not going to be a surprise. The NRA use always the same list of 15-20 people who stopped mass shootings over 20 years. They ''prove'' it was not reported in the media by linking articles in the media. However, my point is the same : considering the differences in population between 1980 and 2018 (the NRA ''millions of people'' figure is from 198o), you will need to find around 200 cases per day to reach a figure remotely close to what the NRA claims.

Check back in this thread to see several examples of recent self defense using a firearm. I am not going to re-post them just for your benefit. :P But I will continue to post such cases when I can see them. And I do not think it is millions of cases each year. But thousands? For sure. But since there is no police report when no one is harmed or they are called, no one can say the exact number.

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Shhh...lets not let facts get in the way. Lets also not forget how the system failed in this case. The kid had mental issues and would not have passed a background check if the therapist passed along his information like she should have. You think the system would have been fixed but then we get the theater shooter who passed through the same cracks with the therapist not sharing information. So its nice to have and pass "feel good" legislation but when it doesnt work dont come trying to make more legislation to cover up the fault of Federal and State agencies not doing their jobs. You could argue that people feel the need to arm themselves because our Federal, State and Local agencies have failed so many times on so many different levels.

Yes. Multiple failures to on the part of the authorities in the Fla case. Not to mention the armed guard, was too far away from the entrance to the school and a damn coward to boot. :P I do not trust the police to save me. Not because they would not try, but they are only human and most times are going to be too late to do so.

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America has a Full-automatic gun ban right?

So Semi-automatic is still legal. Such as the AR-15, Almost all handguns, tons of hunting rifles.

So this ban is restricting them even more? I can agree that some modifications should be illegal(like bump stocks), but banning Semi-Automatic weapons is not going to go very well. And if I am not mistaken, isnt most gun related crime in the US performed with Handguns?

There is also no clear definition of an assault weapon. Is it just because a weapon looks military grade that it will be banned? Or is it something else?

There is no ban forth coming for any semi-auto firearms. Bumpstocks may be and should be banned imo. There are going to be some min age requirements to purchase rifles ( 21 ) to make them in line with handguns. I have no issues with such.

Full automatic firearms , while not illegal to own here, are so heavily restricted, they are for all practical purposes for the majority of people here.

[Deldavala]

There is no ban forth coming for any semi-auto firearms. Bumpstocks may be and should be banned imo. There are going to be some min age requirements to purchase rifles ( 21 ) to make them in line with handguns. I have no issues with such.

Full automatic firearms , while not illegal to own here, are so heavily restricted, they are for all practical purposes for the majority of people here.

I just googled the "Assault weapons ban 2018" and read some of the stuff on congress.gov. So I am not fully into the whole debate, but from what I read this law could basicly ban any gun they deem unworthy.

Kinda on-topic, Norway just revised its gun laws, which are making a lot of people abit unhappy since they are outright banning a few guns(Ruger mini 14) with no buybacks. My uncle got one for hunting and they cost around 2.5-5k USD depending on mods and its insane they are just going to ban it.

[petej0]

I just googled the "Assault weapons ban 2018" and read some of the stuff on congress.gov. So I am not fully into the whole debate, but from what I read this law could basicly ban any gun they deem unworthy.

Kinda on-topic, Norway just revised its gun laws, which are making a lot of people abit unhappy since they are outright banning a few guns(Ruger mini 14) with no buybacks. My uncle got one for hunting and they cost around 2.5-5k USD depending on mods and its insane they are just going to ban it.

Part of the issue with instituting a ban on say the AR15 (for example) isnt so much getting the ban in place. Its getting people to voluntarily hand in their firearms. You cant go door to door and search homes. Even if you do, you are putting law enforcement into a dangerous position to perform involuntary confiscation. How is that handled in other countries when you have a large population who may not comply?

[Deldavala]

Part of the issue with instituting a ban on say the AR15 (for example) isnt so much getting the ban in place. Its getting people to voluntarily hand in their firearms. You cant go door to door and search homes. Even if you do, you are putting law enforcement into a dangerous position to perform involuntary confiscation. How is that handled in other countries when you have a large population who may not comply?

Since all guns has a serial number and someone with ownership of that number, it should be quite easy to get everyone to turn them in and either fine/confiscate/arrest the ones that dont. With ofc a buyback program. Still, besides the emotional appeal, there is no reason why AR-15 should be banned over other rifles with higher firepower/rate.

[Dystemper]

You can do a lot of things, and there there is the numbers the stats.

You can compare countries with lots of or no guns, you can compare countries with lots of cars or no cars.

YEs look at the stats. 100 million or more gun owners. over 350 million guns. .00095% of them commit a crime. A fire arm is used roughly 2 million times a year to prevent a crime at best guess. Most of those the firearm is not even discharged. Violent crime is down 50% from the time the Clinton Weapons ban ended. Even mass shooting are down. But somehow you still blame the gun.

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I have yet to hear a normal and rational answer about WHY anyone need to have an AK-47 at his home (and usually, several of them)

Please, explain to me what kind of dangerous beast you hunt that require such a weapon and what kind of lifestyle not involving the purchase of Sudafed in bulk make it necessity to have not one, but several AK-47

(Because it's legal is not an answer)

I dont have to show a NEED for a constitutional right. A semi automatic rifle , especially the Ar or Ak platform is a superior Self defense tool. Plain and simple. Very accurate , easy to use and provides excellent stopping power. They are also used in shooting sports, target shooting and varment hunting. But you know this as it has been explained to you ad nauseum in this very thread. You simply refuse to acknowledge any of of it

[sarahtasher]

YEs look at the stats. 100 million or more gun owners. over 350 million guns. .00095% of them commit a crime. A fire arm is used roughly 2 million times a year to prevent a crime at best guess. Most of those the firearm is not even discharged. Violent crime is down 50% from the time the Clinton Weapons ban ended. Even mass shooting are down. But somehow you still blame the gun.

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I dont have to show a NEED for a constitutional right. A semi automatic rifle , especially the Ar or Ak platform is a superior Self defense tool. Plain and simple. Very accurate , easy to use and provides excellent stopping power. They are also used in shooting sports, target shooting and varment hunting. But you know this as it has been explained to you ad nauseum in this very thread. You simply refuse to acknowledge any of of it

Again, you can purchase life preservers and wear them all the time. It does not means it's a good rational idea.

[petej0]

Since all guns has a serial number and someone with ownership of that number, it should be quite easy to get everyone to turn them in and either fine/confiscate/arrest the ones that dont. With ofc a buyback program.

I think a fine could/would work. How do you go about confiscating or arresting someone who knows you are coming for their firearm though? You know someone who is holding to the "Cold dead hands" mentality. Are we setting law enforcement agencies up for Waco all over again?

Still, besides the emotional appeal, there is no reason why AR-15 should be banned over other rifles with higher firepower/rate.

Agreed, it sounds scary so people want to ban it. When 90% of firearm deaths are committed using handguns its easy to see that people are operating only on emotions.

[sarahtasher]

YEs look at the stats. 100 million or more gun owners. over 350 million guns. .00095% of them commit a crime. A fire arm is used roughly 2 million times a year to prevent a crime at best guess. Most of those the firearm is not even discharged. Violent crime is down 50% from the time the Clinton Weapons ban ended. Even mass shooting are down. But somehow you still blame the gun.

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I dont have to show a NEED for a constitutional right. A semi automatic rifle , especially the Ar or Ak platform is a superior Self defense tool. Plain and simple. Very accurate , easy to use and provides excellent stopping power. They are also used in shooting sports, target shooting and varment hunting. But you know this as it has been explained to you ad nauseum in this very thread. You simply refuse to acknowledge any of of it

2 million people (1980 statistic) would means 5500 cases per day (and presumably way more, since demographic growth). Despite desperate soul searching, the NRA struggle to find one case per week ,per month, of GOOD GUY WITH GUN.

[petej0]

Again, you can purchase life preservers and wear them all the time. It does not means it's a good rational idea.

If you live on the water it may be. It isnt rational to you, that is fine. It is perfectly rational for those who have a firearm and as long as they follow the laws there is nothing wrong with it. Just as there is nothing wrong with someone owning large amounts of fertilizer.

[Dystemper]

Most people just want good people to be responsible with weapons. But it's obvious that in America it's out of control.

Oh bullshit. 99.99 percent of gun owner do not commit any crimes with their guns.

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That's odd, boars where hunted in Europe for centuries without automatic weapons.

We dont use automatic weapons to hunt them. You know this but you make a willfully ignorant and over the top statement. You cant be taken seriously at all

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Handguns SUCK at stopping a threat. The one shot stop is a myth.

For the same reason Police use a rifle to clear houses and buildings when they have a choice. More points of contact ensure better hits and less errant rounds. We carry handguns because it's easier to conceal and go about day to day life than a rifle.

If you know you're going to be in a gunfight you'll bring a rifle and friends with rifles. Handguns have always been a compromise. Look at any pictures from the old west and you'll see just as many rifles as handguns.

As the saying goes, You use your handgun until you can get to your rifle. I am always amused by the lack of knowledge the Gun control proponents have on Firearms and their use . They dont even bother to educate themselves. This is one of the many reasons they lose all the time.

[Vankrys]

YEs look at the stats. 100 million or more gun owners. over 350 million guns. .00095% of them commit a crime. A fire arm is used roughly 2 million times a year to prevent a crime at best guess. Most of those the firearm is not even discharged. Violent crime is down 50% from the time the Clinton Weapons ban ended. Even mass shooting are down. But somehow you still blame the gun.

You want a medal?

Because you have a hell of way to go to reach the level of civilized countries



Those are homicides rate, not just guns related, but all weapons or means to kill, all homicide. I'm sorry but you are way way too high compared to other rich countries (3 to 5 times higher than Germany, France, United Kingdom, basically everyone from G8 except Russia)

Again, it is not that the US has more crime than Europe, that's not true. It's just that crime in the US is a lot more lethal.

[Deleted]

Actually there is no evidence number of firearms in population has direct link to crime/murder rate. Somewhere it is even opposite correlation.
There are countries with a lot of legal weapons and very low crime/murder rate (Switzerland) (...)
In USA almost everybody had a full auto weapon couple decades ago, you could buy it everywhere including gas station or mail order it to your home. But there were no mass shootings... Guns are not the cause of the issue, some sick people and local social conditions are the cause fo the issue.

Now let me clear up that Switzerland and guns thing if you allow me:
Most of the guns the population has at home are not even privately owned, but they belong to the army. Yet, since Switzerland still has conscripiton for every male citizens above the age of 20, they go and get trained in modern military - including guns. If your officer finds you fit for serving the homeland, they either invite you for more training, and/or issue you a gun to keep at home. In case Switzerland is under attack or there's a military drill, you're to report with your gun to the nearest military post within a certain amount of time. If you don't do that, you're considered a deserter. So from that point on, owning that gun is not a civil right, but a public duty. Hence, you even get paid for it!
The other big chunk of the guns are hunting and sport rifles, because of tradition. The so called "Schützenfest" used to be a big thing for centuries and due to the wealthiness, the swiss are well known safari hunters as well.
But there are no local version of Ammu-nation, nor you're allowed to carry an M4 on the back of your pick-up truck. The distribution of the so-called "big guns" is banned, only the army can give you one. So while Switzerland might seem similar to the US by the numbers, it isn't. It's a totally different world.

[petej0]

You want a medal?

Because you have a hell of way to go to reach the level of civilized countries



Those are homicides rate, not just guns related, but all weapons or means to kill, all homicide. I'm sorry but you are way way too high compared to other rich countries (3 to 5 times higher than Germany, France, United Kingdom, basically everyone from G8 except Russia)

Again, it is not that the US has more crime than Europe, that's not true. It's just that crime in the US is a lot more lethal.

Since when is Mexico and Turkey not civilized?

[Dystemper]

You want a medal?

Because you have a hell of way to go to reach the level of civilized countries



Those are homicides rate, not just guns related, but all weapons or means to kill, all homicide. I'm sorry but you are way way too high compared to other rich countries (3 to 5 times higher than Germany, France, United Kingdom, basically everyone from G8 except Russia)

Again, it is not that the US has more crime than Europe, that's not true. It's just that crime in the US is a lot more lethal.

And look at those stats when you remove the four biggest cities in the USA that contribute the most crime . Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans , DC

[petej0]

Now let me clear up that Switzerland and guns thing if you allow me:
Most of the guns the population has at home are not even privately owned, but they belong to the army. Yet, since Switzerland still has conscripiton for every male citizens above the age of 20, they go and get trained in modern military - including guns. If your officer finds you fit for serving the homeland, they either invite you for more training, and/or issue you a gun to keep at home. In case Switzerland is under attack or there's a military drill, you're to report with your gun to the nearest military post within a certain amount of time. If you don't do that, you're considered a deserter. So from that point on, owning that gun is not a civil right, but a public duty. Hence, you even get paid for it!
The other big chunk of the guns are hunting and sport rifles, because of tradition. The so called "Schützenfest" used to be a big thing for centuries and due to the wealthiness, the swiss are well known safari hunters as well.
But there are no local version of Ammu-nation, nor you're allowed to carry an M4 on the back of your pick-up truck. The distribution of the so-called "big guns" is banned, only the army can give you one. So while Switzerland might seem similar to the US by the numbers, it isn't. It's a totally different world.

It is different, which is why you dont hear of someone grabbing their gun to shoot up a school in Switzerland. That is something eerily American for whatever reason. So the question is why does an armed population such as Switzerland not have the same level of firearm deaths as the US?