Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Doctor Amadeus]

Wrong. Nobody would say mass shooters are moral. That doesn't mean they're insane, because those are two completely different things.

I’m not conflating either. I’m saying mass shooters are insane. It is irrelevant to whether they are evil because evil is a moral value not objective.

One nations monster is another nations hero. There is nothing heroic or brave in any nation killing unarmed kindergarteners is nobody’s hero.

There is no honor or reason to shoot unarmed people in a grocery store.

It’s mentally Illness.

[PhaelixWW]

One nations monster is another nations hero.

That doesn't describe morality.

There is nothing heroic or brave in any nation killing unarmed kindergarteners is nobody’s hero.

This describes morality.

There is no honor or reason to shoot unarmed people in a grocery store.

The shooter had reasons; those reasons were immoral ones, but he had them. Honor has nothing to do with sanity.

It’s mentally Illness.

No, it's really not. An illness implies that it can be treated. Immorality is not a treatable condition.

[Doctor Amadeus]

But it isn't, the problem is you are conflating actuality with your perception. You can say you BELIEVE that anyone who would shoot up a school or store or park is mentally ill, and you are entitled to that but also you are wrong, because you can shoot up a school without being mentally ill. You are choosing to be wrong and then trying to work backwords to make your belief SEEM correct.

If you believe normal people wouldn't shoot up a school and that makes them mentally ill, what of hucksters, cheaters, politicians who actively supress necessary aid to those in need for their own gain, self defence killers. Honestly though this is fruitless, you're not here to discuss this in good faith since you've decided you can't be wrong.

I’m not conflating anything. I do reject the conclusion of some argued findings? Yes

I’ve already stated my opinion.


Now you’re arguing morality which is not all universal. Maybe some individual precepts not all.


The other circumstances you mentioned like politics etc one could argue that any form killing is a sign of mental illness. I wouldn’t.

Killing to protect your life or that of loved ones is different than murdering random people minding their own business.

This entire thread is basically about people arguing that gun owners should be regulated based on what a few do.

The majority of gun owners are not murderers or mass shooters.

[MCMLXXXII]

See I don’t need to read that bullshit to know it’s bullshit. The statement isn’t in any way reality.

That's pretty rich coming from someone who just said:

I’m a Christian so my faith is based on sense especially good and evil. But I do not believe in evil that way.

[Doctor Amadeus]

That doesn't describe morality.



This describes morality.



The shooter had reasons; those reasons were immoral ones, but he had them. Honor has nothing to do with sanity.



No, it's really not. An illness implies that it can be treated. Immorality is not a treatable condition.

No killing kindergarteners is insane period. I was describing morality as it relates to hero who act in say possible war that is morality based on perspective.

[MCMLXXXII]

It's really his week of bad takes. Every. Single. Post.
Morality =/= sanity. Two different things, like emotion and intelligence.

[Doctor Amadeus]

That's pretty rich coming from someone who just said:

Yes that’s called a choice. I make distinctions. Even when it comes to my faith.

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A majority of drivers don't drink and drive, and a number who do commit no harm to anyone else. Why can't I drink and drive? I haven't hurt anyone in a vehicle or behind a vehicle, sober. Why should I be regulated based on what a few do?

We aren’t talking about regulations. We are talking more regulations and I’d argue we don’t have more regulations concerning drinking and driving for the same reason we don’t have more regulations for guns. At least not substantiative ones.

[PhaelixWW]

No killing kindergarteners is insane period.

Sanity has a literal, objective definition. That is not it.

As I said, you can be perfectly sane and yet commit heinous, immoral acts. Most heinous, immoral acts are committed by sane people, actually.

Because what you're calling "insane" is not using the actual meaning of the word.

[Doctor Amadeus]

It's really his week of bad takes. Every. Single. Post.
Morality =/= sanity. Two different things, like emotion and intelligence.

I don’t have a moral take on this. There is no reason for more gun regulations. Mostly because mass shootings are a mental health issue. That’s my argument.

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Sanity has a literal, objective definition. That is not it.

As I said, you can be perfectly sane and yet commit heinous, immoral acts. Most heinous, immoral acts are committed by sane people, actually.

Because what you're calling "insane" is not using the actual meaning of the word.

It’s not and I totally disagree.

And let’s be clear I sad mentally ill. Specifically although I also said insane just now which I may have misspoke.

My main argument is about mental disorders. Insanity I believe is substantively different.

[MCMLXXXII]

I don’t have a moral take on this. There is no reason for more gun regulations. Mostly because mass shootings are a mental health issue. That’s my argument.

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It’s not and I totally disagree.

But it isn't a mental health issue. It has pointed out to you 100 times right now. Most mass shooters aren't insane. Just because you don't have a clue what the actual definition of insane is, doesn't make this a mental health issue, period.

[PhaelixWW]

It’s not and I totally disagree.

You can disagree and be wrong, I guess.

This is straight up like Terrence Howard math, right here.

Whatever.

[Twdft]

Mass shooters are mentally ill. It’s a fact I understand the arguments so far that “ not all mentally I’ll people are mass shooters”. It doesn’t matter because saying all mass shooters are mentally I’ll is not a specific claim it’s general.

Quick question, do you think mass shooters should be in prison or in a mental institution. Mentally ill people are not responsible for their actions and can't be punished by incarceration.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Bolded made me giggle, at least what I'm arguing is that unless the US wants to push hard to make the necessary fixes (fuck off GQP, UBI, universal healthcare, living wage, proper robust checks and control over those who have firearms, and what is required for someone to obtain a firearm), hard-armed gun control with strong, expensive buyback, is needed, or mass shootings will remain. To not want to do all of one choice (the fixes set is an example of a chunk of what is needed, I am definitely missing some), or the other. Even if you believe it "unfair" that you did nothing wrong and would lose your rights, you are either complicit, or at least accepting of the costs BEING these shootings.

Nothing will outright "stop" mass acts of violence, but mitigating them requires A LOT of hard work and changes, and no matter which path is picked it's totally met with pushback because "muh rights" "too expensive" "omg that's communism!" "fuck you got mine". . . It's tiring, just accept it's too hard and other people just have to die.

People just have to get passed this idea of wanting to make changes but refusing to do the work or have sincere conversations.

Yes people are walking around who really want to kill each other. Let’s have a conversation about that.

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You can disagree and be wrong, I guess.

This is straight up like Terrence Howard math, right here.

Whatever.

As I said mentally ill. I was wrong how I spoke about insanity. A mental disorder doesn’t mean insane. My apologies. You’re right on that point.

[PhaelixWW]

As I said mentally ill.

But it's not mental illness, either, which I also stated.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Quick question, do you think mass shooters should be in prison or in a mental institution. Mentally ill people are not responsible for their actions and can't be punished by incarceration.

Good question and I need to clear up some confusion and I’ll answer your question.

I do not think all mass shooters are insane

I do think they are all mentally ill. Some kind of disorder.

The shooter in Texas I think was insane I don’t know. I’ll leave that to experts.


To your question if they are insane like the Aurora Shooter? No

Because I believe when we can we must not punish those who were mentally ill to the point they don’t know the difference between right and wrong. It would be cruel and unusual punishment.

Despite my opinion I will not speak on that because that’s up to academic and those who study the science to determine.

Insane has a very specific set of definition I appreciate.

I’m aware me saying anyone is insane in meaningless outside of my own uneducated opinion.

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But it's not mental illness, either, which I also stated.

Right that I totally disagree with you. As for the insanity I don’t.

As I said mentally Ill could mean a lot of non specifics. Insane is specific. All have to be clinically diagnosed to be specific.

But I stand by all mass shooters being mentally ill.

The Texas shooter obviously had a mental disorder. For sure. I do not know if he was insane but I believe he was.

[Mayhem]

Evil is knowing better and doing the opposite. Same as stupidity. Stupidity is evil and serves itself.

See I don’t need to read that bullshit to know it’s bullshit. The statement isn’t in any way reality.

So you're evil by your own definition.

[Doctor Amadeus]

So you're evil by your own definition.

Anyone can be evil. Evil serves itself on the back the stupid so yes possibly.

My stupidity however might be my opinion which at the end of the day concerning this issue isn’t going to change legislation by itself.

[Specialka]

This argument is categorically and definitively false. It's a lie propped up by bad-faith people who aren't interested in addressing the real problem.

Mass shooting is a moral failing, not a mental health problem. Bad people aren't "mentally ill" for doing horribly evil things, they're just evil people. Evil isn't some supernatural dark force; it's just the basic misanthropy and lack of consideration for others you can see pretty much everywhere in society. The dad who beats his kids because he's tired as fuck and can't take it any more; that fucker's evil. The guy who pumps-and-dumps crypto so he can make a million dollars and doesn't care what suckers get scammed in the process; evil. And, yes, the angry fuckheads who decide to shoot up some public place because they just want to hurt people; evil.

There is no meaningful evidence pointing to a significantly higher incidence of mental illness among mass shooters. The majority are perfectly sane. I do not understand the desperation to deflect away from their moral failings to claim they must be sick, somehow.



To be blunt; gun ownership (and being male, for that matter) have significantly better correlations with mass shooters than mental illness does. Everyone's a law-abiding peaceful gun owner. Until they suddenly aren't. There's literally no way to tell you from a potential mass shooter, except by waiting a week and checking to see which one of you shot up a school or a church or a mall or whatever.

What about the guy that got beat by his parents as a kid ? When he goes into killing spree in his own school because he is bullied, is he evil ?

[Endus]

What about the guy that got beat by his parents as a kid ? When he goes into killing spree in his own school because he is bullied, is he evil ?

How is that even a question?

Yes. He didn't go on that spree because he was bullied, he went on that spree because he was angry and wanted to hurt people and targeted those he felt were vulnerable. Maybe some of that anger came from parental abuse, but that doesn't make people do these kinds of things. And even if it did, we'd be discussing how the abuse made him evil.

I was bullied as a kid, beaten pretty badly (not by my parents, still talking about peer bullying). It was bad enough my parents literally moved to get me out of that school zone, because the administration were doing nothing, because the bullies had litigious parents. Did I shoot up any school? No. Did I ever do anything to innocent people, out of anger or frustration? No. Because that shit does not make you do bad things.

[Specialka]

I don’t have a moral take on this. There is no reason for more gun regulations. Mostly because mass shootings are a mental health issue. That’s my argument.

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It’s not and I totally disagree.

And let’s be clear I sad mentally ill. Specifically although I also said insane just now which I may have misspoke.

My main argument is about mental disorders. Insanity I believe is substantively different.

What is your qualification to disagree with scientific statement ?

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How is that even a question?

Yes. He didn't go on that spree because he was bullied, he went on that spree because he was angry and wanted to hurt people and targeted those he felt were vulnerable. Maybe some of that anger came from parental abuse, but that doesn't make people do these kinds of things. And even if it did, we'd be discussing how the abuse made him evil.

I was bullied as a kid, beaten pretty badly (not by my parents, still talking about peer bullying). It was bad enough my parents literally moved to get me out of that school zone, because the administration were doing nothing, because the bullies had litigious parents. Did I shoot up any school? No. Did I ever do anything to innocent people, out of anger or frustration? No. Because that shit does not make you do bad things.

That is where we disagree on that.