Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Naiattavain]

Florida could have been prevented. They just needed to act and not ignore. The kids could have not bullied and ostracize him.

What other solutions do you propose without restricting freedoms or outright denying rights?

im sorry but the same people that shot up las vegas was behind the Florida shooting. these people are sponsored by the deep state. with people like David hogg to control the narrative on gun control after chaos. by design.

[Clone]

I agree with your sentiments. However, one thing I have learned in my way-too-many-shouting-matches with gun rights' advocates, is that they have legitimate concerns about gun regulation, and to get it passed, we have to address their needs.

Interestingly, I have found good suggestions for gun regulation from gun rights' advocates. Which I felt was both surprising and ironic.

That is definitely true. Most people aren't lunatics and many do make good arguments regardless of where they stand on the issue. I understand a legit need for firearms in rural areas.

[Deleted]

Its not a hard lockdown like you're thinking. You have business there, hit the buzzer, you're on camera. Most campuses around me are closed campus anyways. Not really a reason to leave, except for some outdoor activities. The important thing is nobody should actually be coming inside during the middle of the day, especially some 24 year old, or a guy with a duffel bag.

Im not really convinced by that, it would be dangerous to have in case of a fire, and as ivé stated before, here on the other side of the pond we never really had a problem with people entering when they should not.

If you're including gang related firearms, firearms belonging to felons, etc then of course that number is high. If we're talking about law abiding citizens having unregistered firearms, then they aren't exactly law abiding citizens are they? We can't force criminals to register something when we don't know where they're getting it from or that they even have it. Part of a much larger problem with trafficking in America.

From what i've gathered it isn't needed to register your firearm, when you buy one from a gun show there isn't any need to register it. I must confess that i do not have much knowledge of it beyond this, but it is something that should be done nation wide.

Its more of people not securing their firearm properly, and the wrong person getting a hold of it. I said it before though, those people should be held accountable to the same standard that the person who used their weapon. However, massive murder sprees have never been limited to firearms. Its just an easy target. Someone went on a stabbing spree in a school some years back, no knife ban right? It goes back to intent. I could probably start neck stabbing people with a fork and get pretty far before being detained or killed. I suppose its just perspective. The counter argument is a fork is designed to eat with, a firearm is designed to kill. However, that goes back to these items being a tool and anything can create the same amount of devastation as a firearm if put in the wrong hands. It is easier to kill with a gun, I certainly won't deny that. But convenience isn't justification for more regulations. Its more convenient for me to shoot a burglar than to fight him. Just like its more convenient for a burglar to use a firearm than a knife (regardless of intent). Its a means of defense that we, while some consider it unfortunate, have the inherit right to allow ourselves to have.

No, killing sprees might not be exclusive to guns, but it sure as hell is the one that makes the most of the killing sprees. To act as if there is anything comparable is kind of dishonest. "No knife ban" isn't honest either, guns are made to kill and really have no other purpose beyond that, knifes do. It not nearly as hard to kill someone with a gun then it is with a knife and its very hard to accidentally kill someone with a knife in comparison to a gun.
To say that anything can have the same amount of firepower without guns is just flat out wrong, you just can't, not even with a car.
And burglars really do not carry a gun around here, they would be stupid to do so. Its all about incentives, in America you get incentivize to get a gun, here in Europe we incentivize people not to have one. Clearly, Europe is much safer when it comes to random gun violence.

I completely agree with the availability. But I don't believe its the availability at gun stores. Excluding gun shows which I think are a total joke anyways and really should be monitored more closely. I absolutely believe its those kids parents being ignorant with their firearms. Look at the most recent shooting. Turns out it was registered to his dad. Not a big surprise there. That wasn't the first case of that either. Again, stiff punishment for those who want to have that kind of negligence with a firearm. If you're that stupid to just leave your firearm in a shoebox in your closet, then you're too stupid to own one.

Well that is the point isn't it... People aren't really responsible enough to have these guns and there isn't a clause that states that you can't have guns if you are stupid. That is why having guns a right is a stupid idea that just doens't work in the 21st century. You can dis out all the punishment you want to these people but it would not help one bit as the damage is already done. You can't ban dumb people from owning a gun as it would no longer be a right then but rather a privilege. Don't get me wrong, it should be a privilege, just like riding a car is. You should be able to show that you are capable of riding a car, just like you should be able to show that you are capable of maintaining a gun safely when you are allowed to have one.
The gun availability starts because you can buy them everywhere. If you do not limit the places where people can buy guns then they will fall in the hands of stupid people with far more ease.

I'll disagree there. People forget that the 2nd Amendment literally protects the 1st Amendment. If you give up the right to defend yourself, or have that defense, then you have no defense moving forward in whichever form of government evolves from there. This could be something that happens 100 years down the road, either way it generally happens. Turkey, Russia, China, Germany, Cuba. Millions of lives lost. To me, its not worth giving up the one right that can protect you from your own government, while providing you self defense if needed.

No it doesn't, the second doesn't protect the first. Literally every other civilized country doesn't have this need. If you really think that you can stop an army, especially the US one, with nothing but small arms is deluding themselves. Good luck killing the baddies when they are in a tank and all you have is your 9mm.

At that point you'd just be taking them away from people you know who have them. That doesn't include the many many unregistered firearms you talked about earlier. Which is the main source of the problem. People like to use Australia as an example. They never really had major gun issues on a grand scale in the first place, but most importantly it is incredibly difficult to sneak anything onto their shores. Unlike America where not only are our borders extremely difficult to monitor (Canada side) due to vegetation, but we don't have the consistent numbers in the coast guard to double up by sea and account for the massive amount of traffic our trade lanes get. Cocaine submarines are still a thing somehow.

Right, so, its hard for you but not for Australia? Somehow i really can not see any merit in this, if you speak of cocaine submarines then it wont be very hard to build one to carry guns too, no? The difference between Australia and the US is that in Australia they don't act as if the world will end as soon as guns are regulated. That is it, the culture around the guns, the feeling that you need one because of evil government or the fact that everyone and their grandma somehow owns one. When people say that something needs to change, then the number 1 thing to change would be the gun culture.

[AlphaOut]

Im not really convinced by that, it would be dangerous to have in case of a fire, and as ivé stated before, here on the other side of the pond we never really had a problem with people entering when they should not.

No fire hazard, doors are unlocked from the inside. Clearly, we do have a problem with people entering. Hence school shootings.

From what i've gathered it isn't needed to register your firearm, when you buy one from a gun show there isn't any need to register it. I must confess that i do not have much knowledge of it beyond this, but it is something that should be done nation wide.

There is paperwork involved, but its minimal in most circumstances. Definitely why I think this should be looked at. Quite certain where a lot of these purchases happen anyways.

No, killing sprees might not be exclusive to guns, but it sure as hell is the one that makes the most of the killing sprees. To act as if there is anything comparable is kind of dishonest. "No knife ban" isn't honest either, guns are made to kill and really have no other purpose beyond that, knifes do. It not nearly as hard to kill someone with a gun then it is with a knife and its very hard to accidentally kill someone with a knife in comparison to a gun. To say that anything can have the same amount of firepower without guns is just flat out wrong, you just can't, not even with a car.
And burglars really do not carry a gun around here, they would be stupid to do so. Its all about incentives, in America you get incentivize to get a gun, here in Europe we incentivize people not to have one. Clearly, Europe is much safer when it comes to random gun violence.

To be fair, there are about 10 other European countries with more mass shootings than the US, with stricter gun laws. In fact, there is no direct correlation between more or less gun laws having any impact whatsoever on homicides as a whole. You can move away from mass shootings and look at individual deaths or violence -since you did say random gun violence, and the numbers don't sway very much. The same people commit the same crimes. Granted, there are a ton of unregistered firearms in criminal hands, which remains unfortunate. So in the US we've seen large population states form strict gun laws and on a graph they look pretty and low on their per capita numbers. But the truth is since these states put these laws in affect the numbers haven't improved very much. In fact, we've seen more of an impact from a better economy reducing gun violence than laws have in these states. The reason why is its unregistered criminals with firearms. Mass shootings are a small number on a grand scale. Surely they can be prevented. But the security both with educational facilities and an owners firearm would certainly improve these numbers rather than infringe on a right.

Well that is the point isn't it... People aren't really responsible enough to have these guns and there isn't a clause that states that you can't have guns if you are stupid. That is why having guns a right is a stupid idea that just doens't work in the 21st century. You can dis out all the punishment you want to these people but it would not help one bit as the damage is already done. You can't ban dumb people from owning a gun as it would no longer be a right then but rather a privilege. Don't get me wrong, it should be a privilege, just like riding a car is. You should be able to show that you are capable of riding a car, just like you should be able to show that you are capable of maintaining a gun safely when you are allowed to have one.
The gun availability starts because you can buy them everywhere. If you do not limit the places where people can buy guns then they will fall in the hands of stupid people with far more ease.

It does work. The problem is there is no punishment for people whose guns are unsecured then used by someone else. The victim party may sue, but that is generally the extent. I think if you limit the places you can buy them, more people will just flock to those places, right? I thought of taxing the hell out of firearms, but at the same time it wouldn't affect illegal firearms one bit, so we'd be hurting your typical citizen.

No it doesn't, the second doesn't protect the first. Literally every other civilized country doesn't have this need. If you really think that you can stop an army, especially the US one, with nothing but small arms is deluding themselves. Good luck killing the baddies when they are in a tank and all you have is your 9mm.

Okay so this is a very common misconception with folks who misunderstand the extent that a tyrannical US government is actually capable of. Enter the Posse Comitatus Act; essentially affecting all the branches of the military excluding the coast guard (I think) because they fall under DHS. It also does not apply to the National Guard. So, a tyrannical US government could throw the NG the CG, and police at its citizens, and the rest of the military would be at a stand down. On leave and on a two hour emergency call realistically. So US citizens wouldn't need to stop an Army. Just some weekend warriors, puddle jumpers, and trigger happy blues. It'd be pretty one sided, and it's designed to be that way.

Right, so, its hard for you but not for Australia? Somehow i really can not see any merit in this, if you speak of cocaine submarines then it wont be very hard to build one to carry guns too, no? The difference between Australia and the US is that in Australia they don't act as if the world will end as soon as guns are regulated. That is it, the culture around the guns, the feeling that you need one because of evil government or the fact that everyone and their grandma somehow owns one. When people say that something needs to change, then the number 1 thing to change would be the gun culture.

That is absolutely correct. You're talking about a country (the US) that cant control either side of its borders or the customs at sea. Meaning there will still be tons of firearms in the US. Many citizens would flock to acquire a newly illegal ones because they're not naïve. Effectively making them criminals. If our borders, both land and sea, can assure security it might be a slightly more compelling argument. But it just isn't realistic.The laws surrounding firearms are honestly fine, excluding gun show idea we threw around. Including the assurance that a purchaser can prove they have the ability to securely store it in more than a shoebox would surely eliminate some otherwise avoidable shootings as well.

I know it sounds farfetched about the whole tyrannical mumbo jumbo. But if history has shown anything about unarmed populaces, its certainly given a reason for citizens to want to stay armed. Rightfully so. Not only for themselves and their family, but for and from their government. Thomas Jefferson would agree.

“Ideas are more powerful than guns. We don’t let them have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?” - Joseph Stalin

[lockedout]

18y olds are still childs.
Because in your mid twenties you probably got out of school. Isnt that the problem? "School" shootings.

18yo can go and die fighting in a war for his country though, using a gun.
School shootings are not a problem.

[Ghostpanther]

That is definitely true. Most people aren't lunatics and many do make good arguments regardless of where they stand on the issue. I understand a legit need for firearms in rural areas.

I understand a legit reason to carry a firearm in 90% of the places I go in public. After all, the Second Amendment has been ruled by the highest court in the land to be a right for self defense apart from a militia. The police can not be every place and their response time is on average, 8 mins. I am not going to be defenseless during that time.

[Scathbais]

All my other rights don't make it easier for somebody to kill other people, and thus take away their rights. Mass shootings aren't made easier with free speech, press, religion, etc.

None of your other rights will allow you to defend yourself effectively against someone wishing to break into your home and do you and your family harm. None of the other laws will protect you from tyranny either. Guns aren't the problem. People are the problem. You don't lock your door at night to protect yourself from guns, you do it to protect yourself from other people. Regardless of whether they attack you with fists, knives, bats, or guns, it is the person, not the weapon that that you need to protect yourself against.

[Deleted]

18yo can go and die fighting in a war for his country though, using a gun.
School shootings are not a problem.

My bad then.
I thought school shootings were a problem in America.

[Scathbais]

Well that is the point isn't it... People aren't really responsible enough to have these guns and there isn't a clause that states that you can't have guns if you are stupid. That is why having guns a right is a stupid idea that just doens't work in the 21st century. You can dis out all the punishment you want to these people but it would not help one bit as the damage is already done. You can't ban dumb people from owning a gun as it would no longer be a right then but rather a privilege. Don't get me wrong, it should be a privilege, just like riding a car is. You should be able to show that you are capable of riding a car, just like you should be able to show that you are capable of maintaining a gun safely when you are allowed to have one.
The gun availability starts because you can buy them everywhere. If you do not limit the places where people can buy guns then they will fall in the hands of stupid people with far more ease.

There is no Constitutional guarantee of your freedom to drive a car. The fact that gun rights were was specifically enumerated in our Constitution means that our founding fathers thought it was extremely important that the government not have the ability to disarm we the people. They learned the hard way that guns were necessary to overthrow tyranny by the British monarchy. But I do agree that American's should make gun safety and gun training part of our culture to go along with gun ownership. Groups like the NRA were formed for this purpose.

No it doesn't, the second doesn't protect the first. Literally every other civilized country doesn't have this need. If you really think that you can stop an army, especially the US one, with nothing but small arms is deluding themselves. Good luck killing the baddies when they are in a tank and all you have is your 9mm.

It kinda does. Europe is a perfect example of budding tyranny. Hate speech laws allow your government to throw you in jail for speech that they don't agree with or find offensive. What means do Europeans (ex Switzerland) have to defend themselves from their government? Not much. As an aside, Switzerland has a gun culture, with high gun ownership and no mass shootings.

[Casterbridge]

As an aside, Switzerland has a gun culture, with high gun ownership and no mass shootings.

Switzerland in general though has a far different culture than the US, even their gun culture is far different, weapons are all registered, even ammunition is watched closely, guns are treated serious by everyone, kids learn early on gun safety, true gun safety from the articles I've read.

Switzerland is probably a good example that gun friendly culture can work, but the US would need to make some serious changes in order to get close to what they have.

http://www.businessinsider.com/switz...-deaths-2018-2

[petej0]

My bad then.
I thought school shootings were a problem in America.

They arent, we have a gang gun problem. More people die from accidental poisoning then from gun deaths for their age group, yet nobody is claiming we have a poisoning problem. Then again, it could be because the media isnt plastering the news with poisoning deaths that nobody notices.

[Deleted]

They arent, we have a gang gun problem. More people die from accidental poisoning then from gun deaths for their age group, yet nobody is claiming we have a poisoning problem. Then again, it could be because the media isnt plastering the news with poisoning deaths that nobody notices.

Im sorry, but you've had 20 "incidents with guns" in school grounds.
8 of them were actual school shootings.

From january to March

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/558128...land-shooting/

If this is not a problem, i dont know what is...
Sure there are bigger problems in your country, but even just 1 school shooting is 1 too many school shootings. You've had 8 of them and its friggin March.

[Ghostpanther]

Im sorry, but you've had 20 "incidents with guns" in school grounds.
8 of them were actual school shootings.

From january to March

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/558128...land-shooting/

If this is not a problem, i dont know what is...
Sure there are bigger problems in your country, but even just 1 school shooting is 1 too many school shootings. You've had 8 of them and its friggin March.

It pales in comparison to the other problems we have. That is the point. One child dying from a gang shooting is one too many. No one is refuting that. And you can not compare your country with us, which does not have the same culture, government or Constitution and history we have. I would be foolish to try to compare my country to others, esp. when I do not need to.

[Deleted]

It pales in comparison to the other problems we have. That is the point. One child dying from a gang shooting is one too many. No one is refuting that. And you can not compare your country with us, which does not have the same culture, government or Constitution and history we have. I would be foolish to try to compare my country to others, esp. when I do not need to.

I know it pales in comparison to other problems but is still a messed up situation. Its kids at school.
And i think its the perfect time to compare yourself to other countries.
Even if you dont like the idea because its "Murica" and America is the best.
But jesus, is the perfect time to compare your culture to other cultures to make a stop to it.

[Dystemper]

My bad then.
I thought school shootings were a problem in America.

Actually they are not s problem. Kids are safer in school now more then they have ever been. School shooting are even on a decline. But listening to the media you wouldn't know thay

[Deleted]

Actually they are not s problem. Kids are safer in school now more then they have ever been. School shooting are even on a decline. But listening to the media you wouldn't know thay

But there were 8 actual school shooting this year. 20 "gun incidents"

[petej0]

But there were 8 actual school shooting this year. 20 "gun incidents"

But..but..but...I dont know the stats, however if they are in decline, then its a good thing.

I know it pales in comparison to other problems but is still a messed up situation. Its kids at school.

No worse then kids who die at home in larger numbers because they decided to eat a fucking Tide pod. Or a toddler who died after drinking some cleaner stored under the sink. ITS KIDS AT HOME!

And i think its the perfect time to compare yourself to other countries.

Its not, because every country has a different culture and conditions that exist that makes their problems or causes unique. What would work for one country wouldnt necessarily work for another. The drinking age is Germany is 16. Should we institute that since it appears to be working in Germany?

Even if you dont like the idea because its "Murica" and America is the best.

If you are just here to poke fun of a certain segment of our population than we really have nothing to discuss.

But jesus, is the perfect time to compare your culture to other cultures to make a stop to it.

Culture can not change overnight, secondly there is nothing in the American culture that points to guns being the source of the problem. Its more a violence problem, do guns facilitate the killing caused by the violence? Sure, but the root cause is the feeling that our problems are solved using violence. That is what needs to change.

[Antiganon]

Here are two cases of charges of armed robbery for using a finger just this year:
https://regina.ctvnews.ca/police-say...ries-1.3811617

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...07228b4b1.html

In Missouri First Degree Robbery is Armed Robbery https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/...i_laws_570-023

And here's a case of a conviction and failed appeal even:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/30...onviction.html

Looks like I'm wrong.

Apparently pretending to have a gun in a way credible enough for the intended victim to honestly believe you is enough.

So I guess pretending to have a gun can qualify as an example of "defensive use of firearms" in the broadest possible definition.

What a world we live in.

[Ghostpanther]

I know it pales in comparison to other problems but is still a messed up situation. Its kids at school.
And i think its the perfect time to compare yourself to other countries.
Even if you dont like the idea because its "Murica" and America is the best.
But jesus, is the perfect time to compare your culture to other cultures to make a stop to it.

Not at all. While we should certainly continue to help reduce gun violence here in all shapes and forms, some freedoms do come with some costs.

[Ghostpanther]

And if that cost was the life of your child or grandchild in a school shooting, do you think you would continue to believe it’s a cost worth paying?

Yes I would. And I would be advocating for stronger security at the school, with some there armed well enough to help prevent another such tragedy and reduce the lost of lives.