Poll: Do you Support Assault Weapons Ban?

  1. #58441
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Castle doctrine still requires a active threat to said persons life. If just means they have a right to use deadly for to protect their house and have no obligation to retreat.

    Well seems I was wrong. Doesn't require a life threat but imo it requires more than what was shown here.
    This is the right synopsis. I'm one of the gun nuts, but the firearms part of it is only relevant in this particular case to the extent to which it's introducing a highly lethal weapon into the altercation. There's some more legal niceties to the matter, but the bottom line from a standard legal and moral perspective is that you can't introduce lethal force to a confrontation where you had no reasonable belief that you would be grievously harmed and held innocent after the fact. I don't know whether that constitutes murder or manslaughter in local law, but it simply isn't an appropriate use of force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I feel like it should be pointed out that that was not his wife. In fact, the killer is still currently married to a district court judge and has been having an affair with the victim's ex-wife. The killer's wife has attempted to distance herself even further from him, it appears.

    EDIT:
    Correction: Apparently, the killer's divorce was finalized two weeks after the shooting, so he's no longer currently married to the judge, but was at the time of the killing.
    Godfuckingdamnit.

    I'll be damned if that isn't the most Texas sequence of events imaginable.

  2. #58442
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    From what I understand, Texas has laws allowing you to use lethal force if someone uses force to try to remove you from your house (including the porch). Castle Doctrine is very broad in Texas, and while there were plenty of exit ramps in this argument, the Law basically is completely on the side of the guy who lives there vs the guy refusing to leave and using force.

    There are some grey areas present in this case... bringing the gun out could be seen as escalation. At the point the gun was brought out...it was just a loud custody disagreement. Nothing that required use of lethal force. If it wasn't for the cellphone video... Kyle could spin any tale he wanted and there'd be really nothing that could be done. But that video is pretty damning. It makes Kyle look like the aggressor.

    But it is Texas...so it wouldn't surprise me if the DA decides not to pursue the case.

  3. #58443
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I feel like it should be pointed out that that was not his wife. In fact, the killer is still currently married to a district court judge and has been having an affair with the victim's ex-wife. The killer's wife has attempted to distance herself even further from him, it appears.

    EDIT:
    Correction: Apparently, the killer's divorce was finalized two weeks after the shooting, so he's no longer currently married to the judge, but was at the time of the killing.
    In the last episode of As The Trailer Turns, it was revealed that the killer was separated from his wife that is a judge while dating the Mother of the child. Father whose current wife filmed the shooting, as well as the Mother, both being felons and such, obviously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    There are some grey areas present in this case... bringing the gun out could be seen as escalation. At the point the gun was brought out...it was just a loud custody disagreement. Nothing that required use of lethal force. If it wasn't for the cellphone video... Kyle could spin any tale he wanted and there'd be really nothing that could be done. But that video is pretty damning. It makes Kyle look like the aggressor.

    But it is Texas...so it wouldn't surprise me if the DA decides not to pursue the case.
    Like I said, from what I understand it doesn't matter what happened before the point where Father forced Boyfriend out of his Castle. Father forfeited his right to life by such actions in Texas. As far as Escalation goes, they were both escalating it repeatedly, but the only guy with that had no duty to retreat was the guy on his own land apparently.
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  4. #58444
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Like I said, from what I understand it doesn't matter what happened before the point where Father forced Boyfriend out of his Castle. Father forfeited his right to life by such actions in Texas. As far as Escalation goes, they were both escalating it repeatedly, but the only guy with that had no duty to retreat was the guy on his own land apparently.
    Not if the court rules that grabbing the gun itself was the escalating factor

  5. #58445
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Not if the court rules that grabbing the gun itself was the escalating factor
    And now we come to the conundrum: Did the guy that was killed have a justifiable fear for his life when crazy homeowner got a gun and fired a shot next to his feet? I imagine it's fairly easy that, at that point, he felt he was in lethal danger and that if he turned his back to walk away that he might have been shot by the crazy guy with a gun.

    Which is why, as always, bringing a gun to anything other than a gunfight is always a bad idea for everyone (and gunfights are a bad idea in general). Armed vigilante civilians living out their dreams of being Paul Kersey are a danger to society, as evidenced.

  6. #58446
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Not if the court rules that grabbing the gun itself was the escalating factor
    There is no escalating factor requirement when someone is forcibly removing you from your home. Theoretically, the moment Father used force to push Boyfriend off his porch, it was the same as if he had snatched a kid from the house and lethal force is allowed. The presence of the gun is still a defense factor at the point it's introduced, even. The Boyfriend didn't come out and start shooting, he just armed himself to better protect his house from someone that wouldn't leave, in theory. The escalation of threats and the Father grabbing the gun don't really matter either, so much since we're not discussing Self Defense at all. Two idiots got into a fight, one died, the other is legally fine, unless the publicity leads to charges that otherwise wouldn't be filed.

    Like that Mutual Combat in Chicago, different situation, but still a big "meh, whatever" so far as the law is involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And now we come to the conundrum: Did the guy that was killed have a justifiable fear for his life when crazy homeowner got a gun and fired a shot next to his feet? I imagine it's fairly easy that, at that point, he felt he was in lethal danger and that if he turned his back to walk away that he might have been shot by the crazy guy with a gun.
    At the end of the day, it's easy, only one person had a right to be there. If the Father had taken the gun and killed the Boyfriend, he could have concocted some story about feeling like he couldn't retreat, but he had so many chances to retreat, it would be ignored. The guy didn't come out of the house and shoot a round, he didn't come out of the house and shoot him. Sure, he should have at most went inside, locked the door with gun in hand and waited for police rather than arguing with Father, but who knows what history exists between them.
    Hell, don't use a Ruger PC9 to get in somebodies face, there's your advice for the day.

    Which is why, as always, bringing a gun to anything other than a gunfight is always a bad idea for everyone (and gunfights are a bad idea in general). Armed vigilante civilians living out their dreams of being Paul Kersey are a danger to society, as evidenced.
    I rolled my eyes so hard I think I pulled an ocular muscle! Vigilante indeed.
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  7. #58447
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    I rolled my eyes so hard I think I pulled an ocular muscle! Vigilante indeed.
    If your response to someone standing on your property and not leaving is to shoot them, even if it's legal in your state, yes. I have no problem mocking these wannabe vigilante fucks that think that they should dish out some extrajudicial "justice".

    You seem to think I care about the laws around this in TX. I don't. The laws are garbage and are crafted specifically to allow murder-hungry gun owners to murder folks more freely. It's an insane law that is, in essence, the state ceding its monopoly on the use of violence and accepting that police are incapable of doing their jobs.

  8. #58448
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Which is why, as always, bringing a gun to anything other than a gunfight is always a bad idea for everyone (and gunfights are a bad idea in general). Armed vigilante civilians living out their dreams of being Paul Kersey are a danger to society, as evidenced.
    In a genuine home defense situation, bringing a gun to something other than a gunfight is an excellent plan.

  9. #58449
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    In a genuine home defense situation, bringing a gun to something other than a gunfight is an excellent plan.
    Defending his home from...an unarmed dudebro having an argument with his ex-wife. I mean, I guess it's an excellent plan if you want to "win" a fight. But so would bringing a pack of rabid timberwolves. Or a chainsaw. Or getting in a backhoe and driving over them. Or a lot of other pretty outrageous and insane things.

  10. #58450
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Defending his home from...an unarmed dudebro having an argument with his ex-wife. I mean, I guess it's an excellent plan if you want to "win" a fight. But so would bringing a pack of rabid timberwolves. Or a chainsaw. Or getting in a backhoe and driving over them. Or a lot of other pretty outrageous and insane things.
    Objection - nonresponsive to actual comment text.

  11. #58451
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    In a genuine home defense situation, bringing a gun to something other than a gunfight is an excellent plan.
    In what world was this a home defense situation?

    It was his girlfriend's ex-husband. Who was there to pick up his kid. Over whom he had shared custody and it was his time with the kid. So he had every legal right to be there. Hell, the dad had more cause to call the cops than the shooter.


  12. #58452
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In what world was this a home defense situation?

    It was his girlfriend's ex-husband. Who was there to pick up his kid. Over whom he had shared custody and it was his time with the kid. So he had every legal right to be there. Hell, the dad had more cause to call the cops than the shooter.
    Not to mention the sissy removed himself from the situation only to return with a gun later. All the people who flock to these cowards defense are laughable.

  13. #58453
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In what world was this a home defense situation?

    It was his girlfriend's ex-husband. Who was there to pick up his kid. Over whom he had shared custody and it was his time with the kid. So he had every legal right to be there. Hell, the dad had more cause to call the cops than the shooter.
    I think you're missing the point of the statement. Spectral's use of the phrase "genuine home defense situation" was likely meant to imply that this wasn't, especially considering his previous statement.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  14. #58454
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Objection - nonresponsive to actual comment text.
    Fair point, I misinterpreted it as you calling this a home defense situation rather than making a separate but related point.

  15. #58455
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In what world was this a home defense situation?

    It was his girlfriend's ex-husband. Who was there to pick up his kid. Over whom he had shared custody and it was his time with the kid. So he had every legal right to be there. Hell, the dad had more cause to call the cops than the shooter.
    You have parsed the sentence you replied to incorrectly.
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I think you're missing the point of the statement. Spectral's use of the phrase "genuine home defense situation" was likely meant to imply that this wasn't, especially considering his previous statement.
    This is correct.

    The point is that in an actual home invasion, bringing a gun to deal with unarmed intruders is an excellent plan. There is no legal or ethical requirement that someone only use a firearm in the event that it's already a gunfight.

  16. #58456
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In what world was this a home defense situation?
    In the Texas legal sense.

    It was his girlfriend's ex-husband. Who was there to pick up his kid. Over whom he had shared custody and it was his time with the kid. So he had every legal right to be there. Hell, the dad had more cause to call the cops than the shooter.
    No, he had a legal right to custody, but he does not have a legal right to be on private property, nor to force the rightful person off of their property. His proper legal remedies were to raise the issue with the courts, and possibly the police would have assisted with the enforcement of the custodial order/ visitation rights.

    It's quite easy to call both of them idiots, you do not need to side with one for the other to be wrong in some moral sense. Speaking to the legality of the matter though, there's just the one truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    If your response to someone standing on your property and not leaving is to shoot them, even if it's legal in your state, yes. I have no problem mocking these wannabe vigilante fucks that think that they should dish out some extrajudicial "justice".
    Using the phrase "vigilante" in this confrontation just makes it obvious you're making it about something else. It was not about Justice, he was not trying to apprehend someone or anything. Two rams butted heads, one of them had bigger horns.

    You seem to think I care about the laws around this in TX. I don't. The laws are garbage and are crafted specifically to allow murder-hungry gun owners to murder folks more freely. It's an insane law that is, in essence, the state ceding its monopoly on the use of violence and accepting that police are incapable of doing their jobs.
    Nyah, I know you don't care about the law or anything other than a crusade. But, I think you've made your feelings clear, so there's nothing to discuss but the actual legal facts concerning the case. I don't live in Texas myself, so I have no personal investment in this in either case. I don't know that any discussion we have would help you with your feelings, but the board isn't exactly bustling with activity anymore so maybe.
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  17. #58457
    Using the phrase "vigilante" in this confrontation just makes it obvious you're making it about something else. It was not about Justice, he was not trying to apprehend someone or anything. Two rams butted heads, one of them had bigger horns.[/quote]

    Any idiots that try to take the law into their hands are vigilantes, even if the state they live in legally allows them to do so. I have no problems continuing to refer to clearly deranged people like this guy as vigilantes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Nyah, I know you don't care about the law or anything other than a crusade.
    I don't care about dumbass, bullshit, stupid laws. And sure, I guess I'm on a crusade because I'm tired of people in my country having rates of death by gun violence being closer to what is seen in developing nations and nations where crime is a major issue like Colombia, Uraguay, Mexico, or South Africa. We're at least 4x the per-capita death rate of the closest developed western nation - 12.2/100K for the US compared to 2.7/100K for Austria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    I don't know that any discussion we have would help you with your feelings
    My feelings are fine and don't need any help, thanks tho.

  18. #58458
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Any idiots that try to take the law into their hands are vigilantes, even if the state they live in legally allows them to do so. I have no problems continuing to refer to clearly deranged people like this guy as vigilantes.
    Again, no law was taken into hand in any real sense. Not sure why you think "vigilante" is somehow more apt than "murderer" or "killer" or just "idiot".

    I don't care about dumbass, bullshit, stupid laws. And sure, I guess I'm on a crusade because I'm tired of people in my country having rates of death by gun violence being closer to what is seen in developing nations and nations where crime is a major issue like Colombia, Uraguay, Mexico, or South Africa. We're at least 4x the per-capita death rate of the closest developed western nation - 12.2/100K for the US compared to 2.7/100K for Austria.
    Texas is closer to Mexico than Austria, and Mexico has plenty of gun laws. And as I said at the start, this is not even a gun issue. If the result would have been the same with a knife, would you have cared?

    My feelings are fine and don't need any help, thanks tho.
    Righteo, don't give yourself an ulcer worrying about such things that have no affect on your life in any real sense.
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  19. #58459
    Btw, 4th person has died following the school shooting.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59484333
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  20. #58460
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Righteo, don't give yourself an ulcer worrying about such things that have no affect on your life in any real sense.
    I think you are projecting, bud.

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