Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Mayhem]

I know. It's about fear mongering, scared people that want to ban everything scary and dangerous.

We already have gun control in my country, it works fine and nobody wants more gun control in here.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/mag...s-and-suicide/

no it´s not about fear mongering

and it´s not about banning either, damn it, don´t you understand the difference between gun control and gun ban? your country has by far higher control than the US and the US is what we´re mostly talking about in here

[Deleted]

CDC Data trumps UN data since the UN data doesn't actually show a break down. of the roughly 11000 firearm homicides, 9000 are gang related. That indicates a gang problem, not a gun problem. If you think banning guns from law abiding citizens will curb this you must also be one of those silly people who think the $20B spent a year on the "War on Drugs" has done anything to reduce the number of controlled substance drugs (which cannot be purchased anywhere legally) those very same gangs are dealing (and driving up the murder ratevia turf wars). Those statistics do NOT cover suicides as the gun suicide number pushes the overall firearms deaths from 11000 to 33000 when factored in. A lot of suicides yes, but ~44000 people die from accidental poisonings, from anti-freeze to accidental overdose on acetominophen and ~26000 people a year die from accidental falls (suicides are not factored in). Guns are not even a top 10 cause of death in the US. This is all based on 2011 CDC data, feel free to look it up, 2012 and 2013 data hasn't been collated and prepared for review yet but I can't imagine it being too far off from 2011.

So youre the only country in the world with gang related problems?
The UK are pretty fucked up in that regard too you know?

[Schuetze]

I don't know what you mean with your first statement so ill ignore it.

You have a SHOCKING 10.3 per 100k firearm related death. Just as a comparison, UK has 0.25.

I don't know where you are getting those numbers.

We have:

0.52 per 100k gun homicide.
0.10 per 100k unintentional deaths.

The vast majority is suicide, which is a symptom of something bigger. The gun suicide in my country is 3.15 per 100k, which is normal since we do have a stressful society and lifestyle. I don't really care about suicide with guns, I would rather help these people before they commit suicide or start getting those thoughts.

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http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/mag...s-and-suicide/

no it´s not about fear mongering

and it´s not about banning either, damn it, don´t you understand the difference between gun control and gun ban? your country has by far higher control than the US and the US is what we´re mostly talking about in here

I know the difference. I just hate the generalizations by anti-gun people and how they love to blame and punish people that have done nothing wrong.

You only have gun criminality because of socioeconomic problems. If you managed to solve those problems you wouldn't have so many homicides.

[ugotownd]

It doesn't at all. You could still own weapons even under an hypothetical assault weapon ban of some sort.

A ban that would eliminate the group of guns that killed less people than a bat. Yeah that makes sense you see how stupid that sounds. It affects me greatly seeing as I own several assault weapons.

[Mayhem]

I know the difference. I just hate the generalizations by anti-gun people and how they love to blame and punish people that have done nothing wrong.

You only have gun criminality because of socioeconomic problems. If you managed to solve those problems you wouldn't have so many homicides.

... i link an article on suicide and you answer with homicide

[Schuetze]

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/mag...s-and-suicide/

no it´s not about fear mongering

and it´s not about banning either, damn it, don´t you understand the difference between gun control and gun ban? your country has by far higher control than the US and the US is what we´re mostly talking about in here

I know the difference. I just hate the generalizations by anti-gun people and how they love to blame and punish people that have done nothing wrong. Since we all know how it will never be enough for you guys.

After you have strict gun control you will still cry and moan about guns, and what will happen will be an eventual ban. After that, who knows? Perhaps you will go after bows and crossbows, and after that you will go after knives.

In the end you will want to put people inside a padded room for "their own safety!" and pray that they don't find a way to kill themselves or other people.

You only have gun criminality because of socioeconomic problems. If you managed to solve those problems you wouldn't have so many homicides.

Anyways, I'm out of this thread. I know it's useless to argue on the internet. I will be enjoying my guns at the range, while you guys cry about it.

[TZucchini]

That 25% is a total numbers-massage. 2008 and 2010 were abnormal peak years. The person conducting the study chose that timeframe to exaggerate the point.

It's only a total numbers-massages if you don't like what the numbers imply. Otherwise, it's a completely accurate description of what happened.

I could just as easily (and accurately) state that the Missouri firearm homicide rate from 2011-2012 was 4.64, which is a 20% drop from the 2008-2010 range the study uses, and is actually lower than the pre-repeal mean.

The study is measuring the immediate reaction to the repeal. 25% increase when all other bordering states decreased during the same time period. They also measured an increase in gun trafficing incidents, correlating strongly to the repeal.

And PRE 9-11, I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think that these two maps look similar instead of opposite:

Sorry, didn't mean to disappear on you. Nice gif making.

As I already stated, there are areas of obvious conflict. And I think that's making things look a lot more out of wack than they should. The fact of the matter, is that the maps have to match up, by greater than 50%. Study after study shows a correlation between gun ownership and firearm homicides. That correlation can't exist if it's below 50%. So it's not so much that the maps match up perfectly, it more of the fact that they have to match up more than they don't match up.

[Mayhem]

I know the difference. I just hate the generalizations by anti-gun people and how they love to blame and punish people that have done nothing wrong. Since we all know how it will never be enough for you guys.

After you have strict gun control you will still cry and moan about guns, and what will happen will be an eventual ban. After that, who knows? Perhaps you will go after bows and crossbows, and after that you will go after knives.

In the end you will want to put people inside a padded room for "their own safety!" and pray that they don't find a way to kill themselves or other people.

You only have gun criminality because of socioeconomic problems. If you managed to solve those problems you wouldn't have so many homicides.

how´s the weather in predictionland? what else am i going to do in the near future, i´m curious

[Deleted]

I don't know where you are getting those numbers.

We have:

0.52 per 100k gun homicide.
0.10 per 100k unintentional deaths.

The vast majority is suicide, which is a symptom of something bigger. The gun suicide in my country is 3.15 per 100k, which is normal since we do have a stressful society and lifestyle. I don't really care about suicide with guns, I would rather help these people before they commit suicide or start getting those thoughts.

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I know the difference. I just hate the generalizations by anti-gun people and how they love to blame and punish people that have done nothing wrong.

You only have gun criminality because of socioeconomic problems. If you managed to solve those problems you wouldn't have so many homicides.

Lol where do YOU get those numbers.
Total Homicide. Suicide. Unintentional. Undetermined
United States 10.3 (2011) 3.60 (2011) 6.30 (2011) 0.30 (2011) 0.10 (2011)

Just to compare:

United Kingdom 0.25 (2010) 0.04 (2010) 0.18 (2010) 0.01 (2010) 0.02 (2010) Guns in United Kingdom[67]


So I don't know where you're getting your figures but they're wrong.

You're also wrong when saying presence of guns doesn't matter when calculating suicides, as a study linked a few pages back proved some very interesting links between the two, mostly due to for example the amount Of effort needed to "do it", and the amount of "tries" you get in case you fail.

[Schuetze]

Lol where do YOU get those numbers.
Total Homicide. Suicide. Unintentional. Undetermined
United States 10.3 (2011) 3.60 (2011) 6.30 (2011) 0.30 (2011) 0.10 (2011)

Just to compare:

United Kingdom 0.25 (2010) 0.04 (2010) 0.18 (2010) 0.01 (2010) 0.02 (2010) Guns in United Kingdom[67]


So I don't know where you're getting your figures but they're wrong.

You're also wrong when saying presence of guns doesn't matter when calculating suicides, as a study linked a few pages back proved some very interesting links between the two, mostly due to for example the amount Of effort needed to "do it", and the amount of "tries" you get in case you fail.

I don't live in the USA.

[Deleted]

I don't live in the USA.

Does that mean you can't read the data about it?

[Schuetze]

Does that mean you can't read the data about it?

It means that the data I took was from my own country and not the US.

[Deleted]

Compared to the rest of the world we may well be and compared to the UK holy fucking shit yes, our gang problems make yours look miniscule. Clearly you do not understand how out of hand it is here, let me illuminate it for you since you didn't glean it from the information presented to you. ~9000 people a year die in the US due to gang-related gun violence, mostly gangster on gangster. That number nearly doubles when you factor in stabbings, beatings, and other direct manners of murdering people. Yes, I will say, flat out, the rest of the world's gang problems pale in comparison to the US, because the US has the largest prohibition-based criminal enterprise in the world thanks to pointless initiatives like the "War on Drugs". The very same reasons why disarming the public won't even dent these numbers is because the guns and drugs are flowing together (and aren't coming from gun shops and pharmacies) and they can't stop the drugs OR the guns, which is why I remove gang violence from the equation as it's SO huge it's it's own entity. Sure maybe in other countries you have a few hundred deaths from smaller gang activity, compared to the US, you're insignificant over there in the UK.

First off I'm not from the uk, but I enjoyed that kind of cock measuring tone.
Secondly. No.
There is NO socioeconomic issue in the us that justifies a rate of firearm related death higher than turkey or chile.

That is unless you're saying there are socioeconomical issues that are better off in turkey or chile. And to that I lol.

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It means that the data I took was from my own country and not the US.

I was and we all were talking about the USA specifically and have been for the last few hundred pages. I wouldn't mind widening the debate but that doesn't mean you get to do it as you please.

Anyway, yes Switzerland has a rate of 3.84 per 100k firearm related deaths.
That's higher than France. And yes the highest percentage of that are suicides. This is not unique to your case and definitely something to look at, and no a "non-issue" as you call it/

[Deleted]

you mentioned to UK as a point of contention so I made the comparison. I don't see how it's a "cock measuring tone", the gang violence in the US is nothing to be proud of or brag about, it's an emphasis on how BAD it is, so don't try to act condescending, you have proven yourself out-gunned here, no pun intend, by the flaky things you've already been stating.

nice pun, but invalid. Infact, unless you're absolutely unaware of how the world works, there is NO way of justifying such a staggering high ratio. France, UK, turkey, chile, all of issues similar to the US. And even if in a smaller scale, nothing that justify SUCH a difference in number.
So no, that was my point and it hasn't been outgunned yet.

gang violence isn't "socioeconomic" you are naive if you think it is.

And what would gang violence be the result of? Race genetics?

Again, gang violence isn't a "socioeconomical" issue. It's a product of prohibition of narcotics and the intensely lucrative business of selling them,

aka socioeconomics.

just as gang violence in the 1920s was a product of prohibition of alcohol in what were, comparatively, booming times economically. It isn't "poor people shooting each other". It's organised criminal organisations declaring WAR on each other over control of turf. Understand this fact or cease the discussion.

Talking about naivety.

[Schuetze]

First off I'm not from the uk, but I enjoyed that kind of cock measuring tone.
Secondly. No.
There is NO socioeconomic issue in the us that justifies a rate of firearm related death higher than turkey or chile.

That is unless you're saying there are socioeconomical issues that are better off in turkey or chile. And to that I lol.

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I was and we all were talking about the USA specifically and have been for the last few hundred pages. I wouldn't mind widening the debate but that doesn't mean you get to do it as you please.

Anyway, yes Switzerland has a rate of 3.84 per 100k firearm related deaths.
That's higher than France. And yes the highest percentage of that are suicides. This is not unique to your case and definitely something to look at, and no a "non-issue" as you call it/

Gun suicide is not really an issue, as I said, it's a symptom of something bigger. You are the perfect example of someone that hides behind gun control when in fact you just want to completely ban guns, since we all know that there will never be something as "0 gun related deaths" in any country with guns.

Suicide in my country is a cultural problem, not due to guns. We already have gun control in place, we all know that it's completely impossible to fully control the actions of a person. You will always have suicide and gun deaths when you have guns in a country, it's not something that it can be avoided.

Perhaps if we decided to invest more time and money on ways to prevent people from having suicidal tendencies or curing depression we would have few less suicides. Removing the guns would probably lower suicides, but it still wouldn't solve the problem.

For you the problem of suicide is guns, for me it's depression, stressful lifestyles and stigmatization of mental problems. I prefer to try and solve those problems instead of just removing guns (People with mental problems can't own guns in Switzerland) because some people kill themselves.

We are happy like this, we like our gun laws. We have extremely low gun criminality. I don't care if someone decides to kill themselves with their guns, it's better to do it like that than to jump in front of a train, suicide is the issue here, not the guns.

But oh well... You will never be satisfied until the state spoon-feeds you and keeps you safe in padded rooms from the cradle to the grave.

[Mayhem]

Gun suicide is not really an issue, as I said, it's a symptom of something bigger. You are the perfect example of someone that hides behind gun control when in fact you just want to completely ban guns, since we all know that there will never be something as "0 gun related deaths" in any country with guns.

Suicide in my country is a cultural problem, not due to guns. We already have gun control in place, we all know that it's completely impossible to fully control the actions of a person. You will always have suicide and gun deaths when you have guns in a country, it's not something that it can be avoided.

Perhaps if we decided to invest more time and money on ways to prevent people from having suicidal tendencies or curing depression we would have few less suicides. Removing the guns would probably lower suicides, but it still wouldn't solve the problem.

For you the problem of suicide is guns, for me it's depression, stressful lifestyles and stigmatization of mental problems. I prefer to try and solve those problems instead of just removing guns (People with mental problems can't own guns in Switzerland) because some people kill themselves.

We are happy like this, we like our gun laws. We have extremely low gun criminality. I don't care if someone decides to kill themselves with their guns, it's better to do it like that than to jump in front of a train.

no one in here is arguing over switzerland gunlaws

for everything else you´re again just producing predictions or trying to shove your views of some people onto others

again, for the last time, no the problem of suicide is not guns, but they sure as hell don´t prevent suicide but make it easier, it´s pretty meaningless if you wan´t to help people but at the other hand are fine with the ones that shot themselves and thus are never able to recieve help

trying to help on the one end doesn´t mean unwillingness to help on the other end

[Deleted]

Gun suicide is not really an issue, as I said, it's a symptom of something bigger. You are the perfect example of someone that hides behind gun control when in fact you just want to completely ban guns, since we all know that there will never be something as "0 gun related deaths" in any country with guns.

You're delirious in your statements. This is due to you having a very black and white view on the issue.
Suicide is an issue, that gun help do it quicker, faster, and as many times as you wish for very little effort.
No secret agenda in this statement, it's just a fact.
You have a higher gun related death ratio than France, while having 1/25th of the issues.
If this for you is a working system, good for you.

Suicide in my country is a cultural problem, not due to guns. We already have gun control in place, we all know that it's completely impossible to fully control the actions of a person. You will always have suicide and gun deaths when you have guns in a country, it's not something that it can be avoided.

No one is claiming that. There is a big difference in having 10.3 x 100k and 0.25x100k though. And by big difference I mean numbers. Less people die=good.

Perhaps if we decided to invest more time and money on ways to prevent people from having suicidal tendencies or curing depression we would have few less suicides. Removing the guns would probably lower suicides, but it still wouldn't solve the problem.

this is very true and I agree fully with it.
Guns are only a factor in the bigger picture.

For you the problem of suicide is guns, for me it's depression, stressful lifestyles and stigmatization of mental problems. I prefer to try and solve those problems instead of just removing guns (People with mental problems can't own guns in Switzerland) because some people kill themselves.

We are happy like this, we like our gun laws. We have extremely low gun criminality. I don't care if someone decides to kill themselves with their guns, it's better to do it like that than to jump in front of a train, suicide is the issue here, not the guns.

But oh well... You will never be satisfied until the state spoon-feeds you and keeps you safe in padded rooms from the cradle to the grave.

You have a rate of gun related homicides of 0.52
Higher than Ukraine, France, Italy, Germany and etc etc.
If this for you is success, I just *shrug*.

[TZucchini]

again, for the last time, no the problem of suicide is not guns, but they sure as hell don´t prevent suicide but make it easier

To follow up on this:

Firearms are the most lethal suicide method. Episodes involving firearms are 2.6 times (95% CI 2.1 to 3.1) more lethal than those involving suffocation—the second most lethal suicide method. Preventing access to firearms can reduce the proportion of fatal firearms related suicides by 32% among minors, and 6.5% among adults.

http://jech.bmj.com/content/57/2/120.full

[Schuetze]

You're delirious in your statements. This is due to you having a very black and white view on the issue.
Suicide is an issue, that gun help do it quicker, faster, and as many times as you wish for very little effort.
No secret agenda in this statement, it's just a fact.
You have a higher gun related death ratio than France, while having 1/25th of the issues.
If this for you is a working system, good for you.

No one is claiming that. There is a big difference in having 10.3 x 100k and 0.25x100k though. And by big difference I mean numbers. Less people die=good.
this is very true and I agree fully with it.
Guns are only a factor in the bigger picture.

You have a rate of gun related homicides of 0.52
Higher than Ukraine, France, Italy, Germany and etc etc.
If this for you is success, I just *shrug*.

This is the perfect example how you will never be happy with the gun laws.

So tell me, how are you going to stop those 50 people from dying of gun homicide? Tell me how you are going to change the laws so that those people won't die? We still have one of the safest societies in the world!

There's only one solution: Completely banning and destroying guns, by going inside every house in Switzerland and doing searches.

What other solution is there?

So what there's 0.52/100k of gun homicide? That's almost nothing compared to other countries with LESS gun ownership and MORE gun homicide. How are you going to solve that?

Are you going to punish the millions of Swiss gun owners because around 40 people killed with their guns?

73,8 % of all people in jail in Switzerland are from other countries, so I can safely assume that a huge portion of those 50 homicides were committed by immigrants. Who knows right?

Still, how would you solve this WITHOUT banning guns? We all know that as long there are guns you will never have zero gun murders or gun suicides!

[Deleted]

To follow up on this:



http://jech.bmj.com/content/57/2/120.full

There was a very meticolous study posted 30 pages ago of so I can't remember, that in a very analytic way was looking at the link between guns and suicide.
He couldn't come to a definitive conclusion, but there were very strong links in places.
One interesting thing (something i didn't think about it really), is how easily you can "try again" in case it goes wrong, with guns, with very little effort.