Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Schuetze]

half as strict as in switzerland would be a start

I don't think you would find our gun laws that strict.

[Unholyground]

half as strict as in switzerland would be a start

Like Canadian gun laws would be a good start.

[lockedout]

Why are you against highly trained, responsible, and proficient citizens? Why do you support an individuals right to own a firearm, and lack all training necessary to operate it?

I'm not, but every year is a bit excessive.

[Schuetze]

Like Canadian gun laws would be a good start.

Canadian gun laws are more strict than Swiss ones.

[TZucchini]

I don't think you would find our gun laws that strict.

Switzerland is not the gun utopia that some people believe it to be. And believe it or not, their laws are more restrictive than they are permissive.

Compared with the United States, Switzerland and Israel have lower gun ownership and stricter gun laws, and their policies discourage personal gun ownership.

[Schuetze]

Switzerland is not the gun utopia that some people believe it to be. And believe it or not, their laws are more restrictive than they are permissive.

Ah that's a nice "study". Full of bullshit.

The Swiss federal government requires gun permit applicants to demonstrate need for protection against a specific risk and pass weapons safety and firearm use regulation tests (Swiss code RS 514.54, ch. 6, art. 27 (1997)). Permit holders may own only one handgun for 6 months, after which they must renew their permit every 3 months (Swiss code RS 514.54, ch. 2, §1, art. 8 (1997))

Complete bullshit. They can barely read any German, so they completely misunderstood the law. Hilarious.

I'm not reading any further since it's clear that these people are either liars or idiots. Perhaps both. If this study starts like this, I wonder how much more errors and mistakes they will include!

[Mayhem]

Ah that's a nice "study". Full of bullshit.



Complete bullshit. They can barely read any German, so they completely misunderstood the law. Hilarious.

I'm not reading any further since it's clear that these people are either liars or idiots. Perhaps both. If this study starts like this, I wonder how much more errors and mistakes they will include!

what is written in those laws?

[Schuetze]

what is written in those laws?

They refer to the art. 8 in the Gun laws of Switzerland.

Die Person, die den Waffenerwerbsschein für eine Feuerwaffe nicht zu Sport-, Jagd- oder Sammelzwecken beantragt, muss den Erwerbsgrund angeben

People that want to have a gun that is not for Sports, Hunting or Collection, have to to put a reason why they want a gun.

Personen, die Feuerwaffen oder wesentliche Waffenbestandteile durch Erbgang erwerben, müssen innerhalb von sechs Monaten einen Waffenerwerbsschein beantragen, sofern die Gegenstände nicht innerhalb dieser Frist einer berechtigten Person übertragen werden.5

People that inherited a gun have to apply for a permit within 6 months.

Can't find the others because they write the location of the law differently than we do in Switzerland, so It's hard to figure it out where it's located. Basically they mixed everything and probably didn't know enough German/French in order to understand the Swiss laws (Which are written in a very difficult way and even Swiss people have trouble interpreting it), they mixed carrying a gun with owning a gun and probably even added a bunch of stuff that is not true.

If you want to see more about the Swiss gun laws:

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...oschuere-d.pdf

http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comment...out_swiss_gun/ (Which is very, very accurate and written in English).

It's also hilarious how they claim that gun ownership is rare in Switzerland! Good lord! These guys really have no idea what they are talking about, they should visit any town in Switzerland on the weekends and go to the local gun club to see for themselves!

That study that PRE 9/11 posted was the basis for this http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...oting-utopias/ article, which was a very funny thing to read in Switzerland when it came out. Had good laughs at the ignorance and false information about Switzerland written in a Washington Post article, they should be ashamed for writing something like that!

[TZucchini]

Ah that's a nice "study". Full of bullshit.

You haven't demonstrated that their full of shit. All you've done is say it. At this point, I'm much more inclined to believe a peer reviewed study over a random forum poster.

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Can't find the others because they write the location of the law differently than we do in Switzerland, so It's hard to figure it out where it's located.

See this doesn't help your case. When called out, you respond with "can't find it." I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that you haven't demonstrated that you're right.

Let's be honest. The laws on concealed carry in Switzerland would be enough to make people lose their shit if applied to the States. People would be advocating for an armed rebellion.

[Schuetze]

You haven't demonstrated that their full of shit. All you've done is say it. At this point, I'm much more inclined to believe a peer reviewed study over a random forum poster.

Let's start then:

The Swiss federal government requires gun permit applicants to demonstrate need for protection against a specific risk and pass weapons safety and firearm use regulation tests (Swiss code RS 514.54, ch. 6, art. 27 (1997)). Permit holders may own only one handgun for 6 months, after which they must renew their permit every 3 months

Completely false.

You only need to apply for a WES (gun permit) and you only need to say the reason to own a gun IF you are buying the gun for any other reason other than Sports, Hunting and Collection.

No such things exist as "can only own one handgun for 6 months" or "need to renew the permit every 3 months".

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...oschuere-d.pdf Page 16.

At the time of his writing, Poe was not correct: the 2002 Small Arms Survey estimated 1.2 million civilian firearms in Switzerland, or 16 per 100 residents29, versus 83–97 civilian firearms per 100 residents in the US for the same period21 Swiss firearm ownership increased between 2002 and 2007 Small Arms Surveys because military rifles were released to the public due to drastic army size reductions30,31. In 2007, Switzerland had 31–60 total firearms per 100 residents, about the same as Finland, and less than the estimated 83–97 per 100 in the US and 29–81 per 100 in Yemen31.

Around 2 million guns exist in Switzerland.

http://www.fedpol.admin.ch/content/e...faq.faq_9.html

A quarter of Swiss households reported that they own a gun for army service. Few Swiss households, less than 13%, own a gun for non-military reasons. Gun advocates claim that Swiss own guns due to tradition7,32,33, but more than six times as many US households reported owning a gun because they’ve “always had one” (Figure 2). Gun advocates claim that Swiss own guns because shooting contests are the national sport32,33, but only 5% of Swiss households reported owning guns for sport versus 12% of American households.

If it's so low as according to this study, I wonder where those 2 million guns are and why there are so many shooting clubs in Switzerland!

Gun advocates cite the Swiss Army as a Swiss government program to encourage citizens to use guns for self-protection. Swiss men serve in the army until age 35 (age 50 for officers)44. In spite of this universal service, the ICVS data find only a quarter of Swiss households reported having a gun in their home due to Army service (Figure 2). Media reports large numbers of households keep their guns30, but the nationally representative survey data finds that only 2% of households opt to keep an army gun post-service. Some cantons allow reservists to keep their service-issued guns in local gun depots and unit arsenals rather than inside their homes29, but reservists in cantons without local depots were required to keep their guns at home.

Since 1999 a total of 260k militia weapons have been given to the former militia members. The government sponsors all the gun clubs in Switzerland by providing cheap ammo to use at the range.

Swiss and Israeli gun ownership is rare, regulated stringently such as by putting the burden of proof on permit applicants to demonstrate a specific need for a gun, and neither country encourages gun ownership.

This right here, just proves that the people that wrote this blatantly lied about the whole thing. If Swiss gun ownership is so rare, I would really like to meet those couple of thousand people that own the 2 million guns and I also wonder why there are so many people going to shooting clubs in Switzerland.

All you want to know about Swiss gun laws is written here: http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...oschuere-d.pdf

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You haven't demonstrated that their full of shit. All you've done is say it. At this point, I'm much more inclined to believe a peer reviewed study over a random forum poster.

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See this doesn't help your case. When called out, you respond with "can't find it." I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that you haven't demonstrated that you're right.

Let's be honest. The laws on concealed carry in Switzerland would be enough to make people lose their shit if applied to the States. People would be advocating for an armed rebellion.

I can't find them because they don't exist.

Seriously, take a look at http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...oschuere-d.pdf, translate it if you want, read this booklet and see for yourself if you don't believe in me. I've been a gun owner for 8 years now and I can assure you that most of those things written in that study are false.

The laws for CC are harsh, that's correct. But again, you can still apply for one if you have a reason to want a gun for concealed carry.

Let me translate some of the articles about guns http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifie...208/index.html

Wer eine Waffe oder einen wesentlichen Waffenbestandteil erwerben will, benötigt einen Waffenerwerbsschein.2
1bis Die Person, die den Waffenerwerbsschein für eine Feuerwaffe nicht zu Sport-, Jagd- oder Sammelzwecken beantragt, muss den Erwerbsgrund angeben.3
2 Keinen Waffenerwerbsschein erhalten Personen, die:
a.
das 18. Altersjahr noch nicht vollendet haben;
b.4
unter umfassender Beistandschaft stehen oder durch eine vorsorgebeauftragte Person vertreten werden;
c.
zur Annahme Anlass geben, dass sie sich selbst oder Dritte mit der Waffe gefährden;
d.
wegen einer Handlung, die eine gewalttätige oder gemeingefährliche Gesinnung bekundet, oder wegen wiederholt begangener Verbrechen oder Vergehen im Strafregister eingetragen sind, solange der Eintrag nicht gelöscht ist.
2bis Personen, die Feuerwaffen oder wesentliche Waffenbestandteile durch Erbgang erwerben, müssen innerhalb von sechs Monaten einen Waffenerwerbsschein beantragen, sofern die Gegenstände nicht innerhalb dieser Frist einer berechtigten Person übertragen werden.5

This just says that you need a permit to buy certain guns and that people under 18 years of age or that are not under a legal guardian (such as mentally ill people). Then it tells you that if you have criminal records you can't own a gun etc. etc.

Nothing about those 6 months of owning one handgun and renew every 3 months because it's not true. This is the basis for any semi auto gun in Switzerland.

That study is 90% false information.

[Mayhem]

thanks for taking the time

[TZucchini]

Unfortunately, I can't read German nearly as well as you speak/type English. I'll just take your word that the study is dubious.

However, I think the main point is that Swiss firearm ownership is inextricably tied to military service and duty. Not the case in the States.

You guys have safe storage laws too, correct? What about universal background checks for handguns?

[Schuetze]

Unfortunately, I can't read German nearly as well as you speak/type English. I'll just take your word that the study is dubious.

However, I think the main point is that Swiss firearm ownership is inextricably tied to military service and duty. Not the case in the States.

You guys have safe storage laws too, correct? What about universal background checks for handguns?

Universal background checks are obligatory for any type of gun. Some guns require a permit (semi auto guns and handguns) but some guns like bolt action rifles can be bought with just a simple background check.

So it works like this:

Bolt action guns = Background check (costs 20 Swiss Francs)
All other types of guns = Background check + Gun permit (total of 70 Swiss Francs).


It's tied to the military service in a way, but it's not obligatory to have been in the militia in order to own a gun. Basically anyone can own a gun (excluding people from the Balkans and other countries), regardless of the training or lack of training that you have.

According to the law it only says that you need to keep your guns out of reach from other people it doesn't specify how you should store them. It's your own problem if your guns are stolen or used in a crime if you didn't store them properly.

[Gunrights]

Unfortunately, I can't read German nearly as well as you speak/type English. I'll just take your word that the study is dubious.

However, I think the main point is that Swiss firearm ownership is inextricably tied to military service and duty. Not the case in the States.

You guys have safe storage laws too, correct? What about universal background checks for handguns?

Everyone is required to be in the military in switzerland. US military service is voluntary.

Switzerland is not an argument you want to make when debating AGAINST guns. You will lose every time

[TZucchini]

Universal background checks are obligatory for any type of gun. Some guns require a permit (semi auto guns and handguns) but some guns like bolt action rifles can be bought with just a simple background check.

OK. See, this is the point. We don't have universal background checks in the United States. We don't have laws against concealed carry. We don't have safe storage laws.

It's tied to the military service in a way, but it's not obligatory to have been in the militia in order to own a gun.

It may not be obligatory, but that's your culture. That's the way it is. Firearm ownership is deeply rooted in your sense of patriotic duty and military conscription. We don't have that in the States.

It's your own problem if your guns are stolen or used in a crime if you didn't store them properly.

Are gun owners help legally liable if their stolen firearms are used in a crime?

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Everyone is required to be in the military in switzerland. US military service is voluntary.

Switzerland is not an argument you want to make when debating AGAINST guns. You will lose every time

I'm arguing that America should be more like Switzerland when it comes to gun ownership. That would include the extensive training that most people in Switzerland receive.

[Gunrights]

OK. See, this is the point. We don't have universal background checks in the United States. We don't have laws against concealed carry. We don't have safe storage laws.



It may not be obligatory, but that's your culture. That's the way it is. Firearm ownership is deeply rooted in your sense of patriotic duty and military conscription. We don't have that in the States.



Are gun owners help legally liable if their stolen firearms are used in a crime?

Our entire existence as a country is based on the fact that we were allowed guns.

I have never in my life seen a more moronic thing posted on the Internet

[Schuetze]

Are gun owners help legally liable if their stolen firearms are used in a crime?

According to the law you have to report to the police if your guns are stolen. I bet that if a criminal steals your guns because they are lying around your room and the police checks your house to see how you were storing them you will probably be in legal trouble.

[Templar 331]

Our entire existence as a country is based on the fact that we were allowed guns.

I have never in my life seen a more moronic thing posted on the Internet

Then why is it the second amendment? Or better yet, why isn't it in the original Constitution?

[Unholyground]

Canadian gun laws are more strict than Swiss ones.

Exactly, I think they should be strict and for sport only not for protection.

[Gunrights]

Then why is it the second amendment? Or better yet, why isn't it in the original Constitution?

Because freedom of speech is more important. The second amendment is after that because you need it to keep your freedom of speech by force if needed.