Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Daelak]

It amounts to cult-esque worship of guns.

Guns are a tool to be used. For self defense, for hunting, as a hobby, whatever. They are a tool.

Not an icon to be revered.

To be expected when the past 40 years gun US gun manufacturers and its lobbies have pushed gun worship over human lives.

[Ghostpanther]

It's not almost to the point of being religious icons, that's literally what it is in some cases.

There was a wedding in a church recently (can't find the pictures, but there were threads on it here) with the bride and groom wearing bullet crowns, and most of the congregation carrying rifles.Which is why it is done by a court-appointed psychiatrist. And then confirmed (or disregarded) by a state or federal judge.

Extremists exists in many types of social environments. The problem is not the culture so much, as it is the reaction of extremists. With tens of millions of gun owners, the odds are pretty high you will see some extremists. :P Same thing can be said of many other types of cultures using objects.

[Daelak]

Extremists exists in many types of social environments. The problem is not the culture so much, as it is the reaction of extremists. With tens of millions of gun owners, the odds are pretty high you will see some extremists. :P Same thing can be said of many other types of cultures using objects.

You are only a couple of degrees away from doing the same rituals yourself. In some ways you are similar to them by your denial of how effective firearm laws in other countries contribute to a lower incidence in firearm violence. Your denial is so strong that your response to 20 kindergarteners being liquified by a rifle wouldn't even change your position. You have been completely walled off.

[Casterbridge]

And odd how the gun culture can also develop people into respecting them and using them for lawful means. Sure there is a gun culture here in the US. But most of it is for good use of a firearm. Only those who have issues anyway in society use them for wrong things.

Yes and no. Let me be clear I'm not talking about all gun owners (if I was I would be including myself) heck I'm not even talking about the majority and I'm not specifically talking about those who seek to do harm (those are their own category) just a a certain sub sect that have what I consider strange views of guns, getting them blessed in a church, leaving them all but lying around where accidents happen, not teaching a proper respect or handling of the weapon to those who can get a hold of them etc. Like I said it's an extreme of treating them with almost to much respect or far to little.

[Altrec]

Which is a massive epidemic, and their country has poured hundreds of millions of dollars to fight it, with results, such as a year on year decline since 2013.

Your point? Here in the states violent crime and gun violence have been steadily decreasing for the last 25 years.

[Ghostpanther]

Yes and no. Let me be clear I'm not talking about all gun owners (if I was I would be including myself) heck I'm not even talking about the majority and I'm not specifically talking about those who seek to do harm (those are their own category) just a a certain sub sect that have what I consider strange views of guns, getting them blessed in a church, leaving them all but lying around where accidents happen, not teaching a proper respect or handling of the weapon to those who can get a hold of them etc. Like I said it's an extreme of treating them with almost to much respect or far to little.

That is extremism. But even that is ok, if one wants to take it that far, yet are responsible and lawful in possessing a firearm. I mean, some people are extremists with pets. Dressing them up and treating them like humans,etc. But if they are also responsible and not breaking any laws with their pets, who cares? I think we both agree overall however. But those who want to blame the gun culture here for our gun crimes, are omitting the real reasons behind the crime committed with them.

[Daelak]

Your point? Here in the states violent crime and gun violence have been steadily decreasing for the last 25 years.

Yet mass shootings have been increasing in lethality, throwing more and more communities into disarray as thousands of their peers are experiencing PTSD and other trauma that they have to live with and medicate for the rest of their lives, with no proportional response from the federal government because it is mired in dysfunction due to the overrepresentation of conservative ideology in the senate and the house.

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That is extremism. But even that is ok, if one wants to take it that far, yet are responsible and lawful in possessing a firearm. I mean, some people are extremists with pets. Dressing them up and treating them like humans,etc. But if they are also responsible and not breaking any laws with their pets, who cares? I think we both agree overall however. But those who want to blame the gun culture here for our gun crimes, are omitting the real reasons behind the crime committed with them.

It isn't a 'culture', it is a mass of people who have been wholly deluded by the most modern PR push by gun manufacturers to keep domestic sales high. There are already proven ways to reduce incidences of firearm violence from around the world.

[Ghostpanther]

A video lesson on how compliance does not guarantee your safety.

[Stormdash]

Super dangerous!

I love that lower so much. It came out after I had already bought a Spikes "crusader" lower, which at the time was the one I found most pleasantly insolent.

[baskev]

You don't have a right to drive. It's a privilege.

Yup. But it should be a privilege then. And the right is not absolute...so ?

Ah, at least you aren't stupid enough to say that things can be prevented. Nothing can be 100% prevented.

Lol, stupid enough. So that is they way you think...okay.
And yes. I think its a insane idea that we can find a magic pill that can stop shootings. but % we can lower it...is a %

Guns aren't complex. I've never held a gun, but I'm 100% certain I can take one apart and put it back together. I can't say the same thing about a car. I don't even know how cars work... I know from just looking at a gun how it works. Hell, I know more about how guns operate than my fucking computer, and I have taken computer classes.

You can miss parts. Maybe you need to identify parts. Just like with cars...point at the battery etc. And its just basic idea's. I do not have it all worked out. Seeing i am not a government member :P

What does bigger background checks even mean? The Florida shooter had background checks done on him and he passed. Why? Because the 30 or so times the cops came to see him they didn't file anything. The FBI didn't file anything. Law enforcement fucked up. Better background checks couldn't have prevented this. The Vegas shooter passed all background checks, too. You know why? Because he was a normal person with no criminal background or shady dealings.

Bigger background: not just does he or she have any warrants out. But hey lets look deeper.

Background checks already take all that, and more, into account... FFS.

Not all of them.

They do this already. If you've committed a crime you can't buy or own a gun.

Sound logical. But again its the general idea.

It's up to the gun owner on where he/she stores it. Obviously, we would all want them to store it in safe, but we have no right to tell them what to do with their property. It's dangerous to start forcing people to do certain things within their home. You don't want the government in your personal space.

I am not talking about all guns. But certain guns should have more limitations then other guns. Just like you can not drive a F1 car on the normal roads.

I don't agree. It's showing people not to fuck with them. They are less likely to get mugged for instance. Or less likely to get raped.

Yes, but showing up 10 people in a row at a rally like charlostvill is insane. There is a personal protection gun. And then there is carrying a semi auto around.

I don't know how I feel about that. I kinda agree... But that shit is expensive and can easily be made for much less if you have the proper tools. Would have to think more on this point.

yup

Bump stocks don't actually increase fire rate(a gun pro can fire just as fast without it, and the modification actually makes it more inaccurate). A suppressor doesn't make a gun more deadly. A scope doesn't make it more accurate. There are things that do make a gun more deadly, but they are already banned, and you can be jailed if you modify your gun in those ways.

A gun pro...so it makes a non gun pro a gun pro. Look it up on youtube. It makes the gun move towards your finger so you fire faster. So it helps with the fire rate.
And its not sniper rifle or something so the accuracy going down does not mean a lot on the grand scale of shootings.
Suppressor: it does. It makes it a bit harder to spot for law enforcement. And what does it add?
Scope: No problem with.

Make it a year and you'd still see killings... What does time have to do with this? This is a silly point.

Silly person you are...look at most of the recent shootings. The person got rifle after rifles in a few weeks. Time makes cases where they doubt or they hear something about to act on.

To do what? Track law abiding citizens? You know how much this will cost? Do you know how many guns are in the US that's not "registered"? Also, registering guns in inherently against the second amendment. If the government knew where all the guns were, they could seize them easier without difficulty if they went tyrannical.

How can you track someone with a database that says: person x has bought this and this?!?!?!
I know its against the 2nd. But it should be done.
You clearly do not understand half the stuff so let me be clear.
This would be a system where they put the info in like this:

Person 1 has:
weapon: x,y,z
ammo: 100x, 200y, 10z
Has license to: open carry ( or any other thing here).
status: nominal

Then the system could go off if a person buys ammo x times a 500. Or when something in his status changes like: went to prison, aggravated assault etc etc

I have a theory about it, but it's sort of conspiratorial at the moment. When I gather more data, I'll publish my findings.

TL;DR: Nothing you've said will prevent or reduce anything.

You do.
Because i really think its one of the problems 2.

[Ghostpanther]

I am not talking about all guns. But certain guns should have more limitations then other guns. Just like you can not drive a F1 car on the normal roads.

Certain firearms already have some restrictions. Machine guns are heavly regulated here in the US. And one can kill just as many people with a SKS versus a AR-15. Yet the SKS does not fall under the evil term of assault rifle.

[baskev]

Certain firearms already have some restrictions. Machine guns are heavly regulated here in the US. And one can kill just as many people with a SKS versus a AR-15. Yet the SKS does not fall under the evil term of assault rifle.

so they need to expand the certain firearms to include more of them?
When cars became a bigger thing and they became faster etc, laws where put in place or changed to accommodate the fact that they had changed.

[Ghostpanther]

so they need to expand the certain firearms to include more of them?
When cars became a bigger thing and they became faster etc, laws where put in place or changed to accommodate the fact that they had changed.

If they did, it would begin to include most semi-auto rifles. Unless they limit them by caliber. But then there we go, this would just open up more restrictions which basically punish the law abiding citizens.

There are no speed limitations on how fast a legal for street car can go.

[baskev]

If they did, it would begin to include most semi-auto rifles. Unless they limit them by caliber. But then there we go, this would just open up more restrictions which basically punish the law abiding citizens.

yeah so?

We can also not do anything at all? And let children get shot up? is that what you are saying? ( you are not) . we need to think about how can we change stuff.

And like i said. You could do other things like storing ammo for semi auto's only at shooting ranges or something. But not thinking about a problem will not solve it. And it needs to be solved. And yes some of these laws will hurt some gun owners.

Laws, rights etc are no absolute. They can change.
I get shooting a semi auto is cool. ( i have done it myself). But if its the main cause of death in these shootings and one of the few guns on the list witch is a pure fun gun. Then you it might time to edit the law concerning them.

Just like car laws changed when the cars changed, gun laws need to change to.

btw i am not saying ( i know a lot of people on this forum are narrow minded and think every answer is set in stone. And words like might, should etc mean 100% stuff...they do not). sorry...trailing off.
I am saying non of these things will 100% give safety. And some of these things might not even work. But we need to start the discussion somewhere do we not?
Or do we need to find a magic pill or something.

[Ghostpanther]

yeah so?

We can also not do anything at all? And let children get shot up? is that what you are saying? ( you are not) . we need to think about how can we change stuff.

And like i said. You could do other things like storing ammo for semi auto's only at shooting ranges or something. But not thinking about a problem will not solve it. And it needs to be solved. And yes some of these laws will hurt some gun owners.

Laws, rights etc are no absolute. They can change.
I get shooting a semi auto is cool. ( i have done it myself). But if its the main cause of death in these shootings and one of the few guns on the list witch is a pure fun gun. Then you it might time to edit the law concerning them.

Just like car laws changed when the cars changed, gun laws need to change to.

btw i am not saying ( i know a lot of people on this forum are narrow minded and think every answer is set in stone. And words like might, should etc mean 100% stuff...they do not). sorry...trailing off.
I am saying non of these things will 100% give safety. And some of these things might not even work. But we need to start the discussion somewhere do we not?
Or do we need to find a magic pill or something.

We need to start enforcing the laws we have, follow up more aggressively on reports of threats being made and have better background checks. All of that can be done without touching a single existing lawful firearm. Increase the penalties for using a firearm unlawfully.

[baskev]

We need to start enforcing the laws we have, follow up more aggressively on reports of threats being made and have better background checks. All of that can be done without touching a single existing lawful firearm. Increase the penalties for using a firearm unlawfully.

Yup agree. on some parts

Better background checks was one of my points.

But why is that not done already? simple: because you hit the same brick wall again. My rights, 2nd adm etc etc etc
This will also mean a shit ton of extra cops to handle all that stuff. And yes put more people in American prisons...because they are not full already :S:S.

Why are people afraid of changing gun laws? Some might need revision...like i said. Some laws are old and not up to date. so taking a look at the might not hurt. ]
I would hate to see my grandfathers brothers m1 garand leave the family for instance.

Why is that when we talk about guns people act like south park rednecks: they took our guns....they took his guns....

[Ghostpanther]

Yup agree. on some parts

Better background checks was one of my points.

But why is that not done already? simple: because you hit the same brick wall again. My rights, 2nd adm etc etc etc
This will also mean a shit ton of extra cops to handle all that stuff. And yes put more people in American prisons...because they are not full already :S:S.

Why are people afraid of changing gun laws? Some might need revision...like i said. Some laws are old and not up to date. so taking a look at the might not hurt. ]
I would hate to see my grandfathers brothers m1 garand leave the family for instance.

Why is that when we talk about guns people act like south park rednecks: they took our guns....they took his guns....

Because they might if we stand by and let them take more of our freedoms away to possess and keep firearms. The more you give up for some groups, the more they will ask for more to be given up. Of course anything done would require more funding. Not going to get what really needs to be addressed for free. :P

Our prisons are not that undesirable places to be in. You do know the re-incarceration rate is pretty high? They have it better in prisons than some who are out in the public. :P Never have to worry about health care, utilities and taxes to be paid. Will always have good food and even recreation for free.

[baskev]

Because they might if we stand by and let them take more of our freedoms away to possess and keep firearms. The more you give up for some groups, the more they will ask for more to be given up. Of course anything done would require more funding. Not going to get what really needs to be addressed for free. :P

Our prisons are not that undesirable places to be in. You do know the re-incarceration rate is pretty high? They have it better in prisons than some who are out in the public. :P Never have to worry about health care, utilities and taxes to be paid. Will always have good food and even recreation for free.

What has freedom ( general one) have to do with firearms? Does your firearm give you freedom of speech? Does it talk for you? And again, not saying they need to be removed. But things need to be looked at and changed. And more funding? yeah because america is swimming in money right now!

So let me be clear i do think something needs to happen. But you do not have to be afraid to become a south park redneck. Because just like the alliance is never going to get high elves, guns are never going away. They are to rooted in american identity. But i do think we need to rethink of some points.

So....maybe make it better outside prison ( so they do not get back into) instead of making sure people get into prison more often?

[Ghostpanther]

What has freedom ( general one) have to do with firearms? Does your firearm give you freedom of speech? Does it talk for you? And again, not saying they need to be removed. But things need to be looked at and changed. And more funding? yeah because america is swimming in money right now!

So let me be clear i do think something needs to happen. But you do not have to be afraid to become a south park redneck. Because just like the alliance is never going to get high elves, guns are never going away. They are to rooted in american identity. But i do think we need to rethink of some points.

So....maybe make it better outside prison ( so they do not get back into) instead of making sure people get into prison more often?

If you do not understand that the right to keep and possess firearms are centered around the bill of rights, then not sure we will ever come to a understanding. The freedom to use firearms for self defense in your home and out in the public, is just as important as any of the other freedoms we have. No less.

I do not trust some in the government any further than I can throw them. You do know some in Congress today, have on record, said if they could, they would confiscate every firearm in the public citizen's possession. It is a real threat if some where to become the dominant power in Congress. And as one of our Founding Fathers once wisely said, Liberty requires constant vigilance.

[schwank05]

Ghostpanther, I completely agree with you. The issue is if we start giving in and making concessions then we will end at the eventual repeal of the 2nd amendment as the Left has stated many many times is what they really want. Semi-Auto rifles are very rarely used in shootings, the real "threat" if people feel the need to see it that way is Handguns much more convenient and easy to conceal and fire just as many rounds in the same time frame as a Rifle arguably with much easier target acquisition. But they don't say anything about these because all these lefty anti gun people have armed security guards and guess what they all carry? So no we cannot take them away, so they try to come after my favorite hunting rifle because it is black.... There is no reason to ban any firearms, evil people are still going to do evil things regardless of laws. They just need to actually enforce the laws in place currently.