View Poll Results: Do you Support Assault Weapons Ban?

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  • Yes

    2,785 60.20%
  • No

    1,841 39.80%
  1. #52861
    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper0329 View Post
    Am I alone in that thought? I'm pretty staunchly 2A, obviously, but that strikes me as a "you're making us look bad" sort of thing.
    Florida doesn't have general open carry, but you can open carry when hunting/fishing or on your way to hunt or fish. So they've had a few open-carry fishing events to "prove a point", but... meh.

    It's like bump stocks, I don't want them banned (especially florida's vague law that applies to other stuff), but I don't have one and never planned to get one. I am in favor of open carry being legal, but don't think it's appropriate for most environments. Like I support free speech but wouldn't support someone screaming anti-semitic stuff outside a synagogue or racist things at an NAACP meeting or whatever.

    If you're taking your AR to a friends house and toss it over your shoulder and stop at Dunkin Donuts on the way, it makes some sense, but as a demonstration? Eh. It falls under the "blocking traffic" protests, I get it, but it doesn't seem a useful thing.
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  2. #52862
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galactis View Post
    Just take all the guns away already. Just ban all of them. I don't have one, can't afford one, and if I ever did need one to protect myself. STAND YOUR GROUND and DIE LIKE A MAN.
    How much would they need to cost for you to afford one? I saw a sale on the Taurus Spectrum .380 auto recently for $119.99. Granted, not a top of your line firearm, but it gets good reviews and would be a decent handgun for self defense. Better than no gun for sure. For home defense, shotguns can be had for less then $200.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  3. #52863
    Quote Originally Posted by Galactis View Post
    Just take all the guns away already. Just ban all of them. I don't have one, can't afford one, and if I ever did need one to protect myself. STAND YOUR GROUND and DIE LIKE A MAN.
    says a typical internet tough guy who probably has never been in altercation in his life, but hey he does watch MMA and go to the gym.

    So when two individuals come into my home w/machetes I just "stand my ground and die like a man"? Curious how does that work for my 2year old son after I am dispatched? Cause contrary to what you likely believe, an individual w/a knife or baseball bat will make quick work of an individual w/out one, and guess what even if you have a melee weapon yourself and are as young and as strong as the assailant it is still likely to end badly for you. However since cowards like this are like hyenas, they look for those that appear weak non threatening etc etc.

    A firearm is the great equalizer. Grandpa may be an easy mark, for these thugs but they think twice in areas where Grandpa can carry and might be a crack shot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    How much would they need to cost for you to afford one? I saw a sale on the Taurus Spectrum .380 auto recently for $119.99. Granted, not a top of your line firearm, but it gets good reviews and would be a decent handgun for self defense. Better than no gun for sure. For home defense, shotguns can be had for less then $200.
    not even looking at going to a pawn shop and such. Can find them even cheaper.
    I am not pro Flight, I am pro a better more engaging game. I just took the pro flight stance cause I knew Blizzard couldn't deliver. Looks like I was right

  4. #52864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Florida doesn't have general open carry, but you can open carry when hunting/fishing or on your way to hunt or fish. So they've had a few open-carry fishing events to "prove a point", but... meh.

    It's like bump stocks, I don't want them banned (especially florida's vague law that applies to other stuff), but I don't have one and never planned to get one. I am in favor of open carry being legal, but don't think it's appropriate for most environments. Like I support free speech but wouldn't support someone screaming anti-semitic stuff outside a synagogue or racist things at an NAACP meeting or whatever.

    If you're taking your AR to a friends house and toss it over your shoulder and stop at Dunkin Donuts on the way, it makes some sense, but as a demonstration? Eh. It falls under the "blocking traffic" protests, I get it, but it doesn't seem a useful thing.
    So it seems you do see the need for some restrictions on open carry. Right? Like the guy in Mo, with the body armor on and doing it clearly just to see what type of response he would get. That needs to be addressed in any open carry laws, I believe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maneo View Post
    says a typical internet tough guy who probably has never been in altercation in his life, but hey he does watch MMA and go to the gym.

    So when two individuals come into my home w/machetes I just "stand my ground and die like a man"? Curious how does that work for my 2year old son after I am dispatched? Cause contrary to what you likely believe, an individual w/a knife or baseball bat will make quick work of an individual w/out one, and guess what even if you have a melee weapon yourself and are as young and as strong as the assailant it is still likely to end badly for you. However since cowards like this are like hyenas, they look for those that appear weak non threatening etc etc.

    A firearm is the great equalizer. Grandpa may be an easy mark, for these thugs but they think twice in areas where Grandpa can carry and might be a crack shot.

    - - - Updated - - -



    not even looking at going to a pawn shop and such. Can find them even cheaper.
    Oh yeah. Now some carry conceal licenses can be expensive in some states. Ohio is not too bad, but it still cost me $130 overall. For the training class and first time background checks for the license. Thankfully, we do not have to retake the class room training when we renew our license in 5 years. Then it will cost $55.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  5. #52865
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    So it seems you do see the need for some restrictions on open carry. Right? Like the guy in Mo, with the body armor on and doing it clearly just to see what type of response he would get. That needs to be addressed in any open carry laws, I believe.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh yeah. Now some carry conceal licenses can be expensive in some states. Ohio is not too bad, but it still cost me $130 overall. For the training class and first time background checks for the license. Thankfully, we do not have to retake the class room training when we renew our license in 5 years. Then it will cost $55.
    I was fortunate, since I was a contract cop on a military base I was able to by pass much of the cost.
    I am not pro Flight, I am pro a better more engaging game. I just took the pro flight stance cause I knew Blizzard couldn't deliver. Looks like I was right

  6. #52866
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maneo View Post
    I was fortunate, since I was a contract cop on a military base I was able to by pass much of the cost.
    Nice. And if you are active military, you do not need to have a carry conceal license to carry concealed here. And only need to be 18. Just need to carry a military ID to show you are active military.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  7. #52867
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    I found this poster's comments interesting, which I saw on another forum.......

    The number of privately owned firearms in US increased from 185 million in 1993 to 357 million in 2017. Almost twice the # of firearms, in that same exact time:
    ——————————
    “Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

    National rates of gun homicide and other violent gun crimes are strikingly lower now than during their peak in the mid-1990s, paralleling a general decline in violent crime, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of government data.

    Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate is 49% lower and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew & the number of guns doubled.

    Despite national attention to the issue of firearm violence, most Americans are unaware that gun crime is lower today than it was two decades ago. According to a new Pew Research Center survey, today 56% of Americans believe gun crime is higher than 20 years ago and only 12% think it is lower”


    And here is the link which proves his statistics...https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013...ublic-unaware/



    The death rate from firearms has increased some since 2010. But not as much as some would think when looking at the increases of gun ownership during the last 9 years.
    Last edited by Ghostpanther; 2019-08-10 at 03:31 AM.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  8. #52868
    Quote Originally Posted by ghoiplas View Post
    I have been in many altercations in my life, and my impression of you is of a weak, paranoid man that should kept away from weapons. Strong men do not want weapons legalized, it takes away their edge.
    Moral men, strong or otherwise, don't care about "protecting an edge" since they don't think in terms of how best to be able to prey on others. I'm pretty glad that people who can't win the arm-wrestling match aren't at the mercy of might make right, which is why armed self-defense is such an important human right.

    In societies where weapons are outlawed, generally speaking criminals do not acquire weapons illegally. You would know this if you studied these things properly.
    Yeah, all those third world countries where you see roving civilian militias? Those are not legally owned or acquired, almost all those states are de jure under heavy gun control.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Why would you not do it personally? And true, I have to consider what I am going to wear every time I dress to go to town to be sure I am not printing.

    One of the reasons I really like my Ruger LCP II for conceal carry. Very easy to conceal and very lite weight.
    Y'know, honestly, because of how people would react - but I think that's a "them being flakes" problem and not an "open carry" problem, if that makes sense. I honestly would have no problem with a social norm that was indifferent to OWB open carry by as many people as have brown hair.

  9. #52869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post

    - - - Updated - - -



    Y'know, honestly, because of how people would react - but I think that's a "them being flakes" problem and not an "open carry" problem, if that makes sense. I honestly would have no problem with a social norm that was indifferent to OWB open carry by as many people as have brown hair.
    That is a very good reason not to. And why, some reasonable restrictions need to apply to open carry. Since the large majority of the public do not carry firearms, a large part of them will look at them as a dangerous item they have little knowledge of apart from the narrative the media portrays.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  10. #52870
    Herald of the Titans bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    The victim complex in Conservative fictional paranoia is HILARIOUS.

    Code:
       Red Flag Laws. Here’s a scenario...
    
    It’s a Sunday night and your family has all gone to bed. You let the dogs back in and lock the deadbolt like you do every night. All the lights are off now except a couple of night lights scattered throughout the house leaving that dim glow throughout your home. It’s bedtime and work and school are going to come early in the morning. You crawl in bed, kiss your wife and drift off to sleep being thankful for the air conditioning that allows you to pull that heavy quilt up over your shoulder despite the fact it’s still 85 degrees outside. A few hours pass...
    
    0200 Monday morning and your wife taps your leg and says, “baby I heard something outside”. As you sit up in bed you hear the dog growling in the living room and you know something isn’t right. You grab that trusty ole 870 and head into the living room. Your wife grabs her 9mm and heads down the hall to the kids rooms just like you have rehearsed. “Good boy” you say as you enter the living room, trying to calm both the dog and your wife just as splinters fly across the room and the front door flys open. “Oh Crap!” As you shoulder your weapon and send a load of 00 Buck across your living room and see the perpetrator fall in a heap. Before the “thank God” can even run across your brain, you see a second man coming in the door and you fire again. This time you hear the pop of your wife’s 9mm as she has joined in the fight. It has to be those damn meth heads from down in town! Just then you are consumed by a wall of bullets as you see multiple muzzle flashes from just outside the door and you realize something isn’t right. You turn to yell at your wife to “get down” just in time to see her take a load of buckshot to the face and her brain matter splatter the wall behind her. You feel the burning as 5.56 bullets Riddle your body. One clips your spine as you’re scrambling away and paralyzes your lower body. The last thing you see before you bleed out is a SWAT guy from your local PD holding your teenage daughter on the floor with a knee in her back as she screams and cry’s because she just watched her parents being murdered.
    
    Why did this happen? You’re no criminal. You’re a Conservative and an honest family man. Your wife is a school teacher and your daughters are on honor roll. Why did this happen?
    
    Well two days ago, you and your wife went down to welcome the new neighbors to the community. Your wife made them some of her “world famous” cookies and you invited them to church on Sunday. Later that afternoon, you got a friend request on Facebook from your new neighbor, which you gladly accepted. They seemed a little odd, but in the few minutes you talked they were pleasant enough. The next day while you and your family sat in church, your new neighbor scrolled through your Facebook profile. He saw that “Trump 2020” post and got infuriated. See, he’s a staunch liberal and he hates your kind. The next thing he sees are the hunting pictures you took last fall when your daughter bagged her first buck. Now he’s seething with fury because he is wholeheartedly against the “slaughter of innocent animals”. Next he sees your post from the last range day with your buddy and sees those scary black assault weapons on the table and that does it! He has to do something about the racist domestic terrorist living next door. He picks up the phone, calls the local Sheriffs Office and reports you as a threat under the new Red Flag law. The SO follows their SOP’s and conducts a no knock warrant because you have now been denied due process and you are considered guilty until proven innocent.
    
    Now you, your lovely wife and two deputies have been killed for nothing. Your daughter will have absolute hell for the rest of her life. She will never be that successful person you dreamed for her to be because of the mental tragedy caused from seeing her parents murdered. The local news paper will report that you were killed after firing on and killing two deputies and that “over a thousand rounds of ammo and 22 guns were confiscated from your residence”.
    
    Oh, those two deputies were just following orders. They left behind families as well and had served their community for over a decade. They didn’t know you were a stand-up guy with a great family. They weren’t allowed time to investigate things under due process. They were told you had threatened your neighbor and were out in the street waving an AR15 around.
    
    This is the reality of Red Flag gun laws. Innocent people will lose their lives. Red Flag laws will be used for petty and vengeful reasons without merit.
    -Chris Anders

  11. #52871
    id like to see the NRA lot actually fight without guns , bunch of fucking pussies

  12. #52872
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    The victim complex in Conservative fictional paranoia is HILARIOUS.

    Code:
       Red Flag Laws. Here’s a scenario...
    
    It’s a Sunday night and your family has all gone to bed. You let the dogs back in and lock the deadbolt like you do every night. All the lights are off now except a couple of night lights scattered throughout the house leaving that dim glow throughout your home. It’s bedtime and work and school are going to come early in the morning. You crawl in bed, kiss your wife and drift off to sleep being thankful for the air conditioning that allows you to pull that heavy quilt up over your shoulder despite the fact it’s still 85 degrees outside. A few hours pass...
    
    0200 Monday morning and your wife taps your leg and says, “baby I heard something outside”. As you sit up in bed you hear the dog growling in the living room and you know something isn’t right. You grab that trusty ole 870 and head into the living room. Your wife grabs her 9mm and heads down the hall to the kids rooms just like you have rehearsed. “Good boy” you say as you enter the living room, trying to calm both the dog and your wife just as splinters fly across the room and the front door flys open. “Oh Crap!” As you shoulder your weapon and send a load of 00 Buck across your living room and see the perpetrator fall in a heap. Before the “thank God” can even run across your brain, you see a second man coming in the door and you fire again. This time you hear the pop of your wife’s 9mm as she has joined in the fight. It has to be those damn meth heads from down in town! Just then you are consumed by a wall of bullets as you see multiple muzzle flashes from just outside the door and you realize something isn’t right. You turn to yell at your wife to “get down” just in time to see her take a load of buckshot to the face and her brain matter splatter the wall behind her. You feel the burning as 5.56 bullets Riddle your body. One clips your spine as you’re scrambling away and paralyzes your lower body. The last thing you see before you bleed out is a SWAT guy from your local PD holding your teenage daughter on the floor with a knee in her back as she screams and cry’s because she just watched her parents being murdered.
    
    Why did this happen? You’re no criminal. You’re a Conservative and an honest family man. Your wife is a school teacher and your daughters are on honor roll. Why did this happen?
    
    Well two days ago, you and your wife went down to welcome the new neighbors to the community. Your wife made them some of her “world famous” cookies and you invited them to church on Sunday. Later that afternoon, you got a friend request on Facebook from your new neighbor, which you gladly accepted. They seemed a little odd, but in the few minutes you talked they were pleasant enough. The next day while you and your family sat in church, your new neighbor scrolled through your Facebook profile. He saw that “Trump 2020” post and got infuriated. See, he’s a staunch liberal and he hates your kind. The next thing he sees are the hunting pictures you took last fall when your daughter bagged her first buck. Now he’s seething with fury because he is wholeheartedly against the “slaughter of innocent animals”. Next he sees your post from the last range day with your buddy and sees those scary black assault weapons on the table and that does it! He has to do something about the racist domestic terrorist living next door. He picks up the phone, calls the local Sheriffs Office and reports you as a threat under the new Red Flag law. The SO follows their SOP’s and conducts a no knock warrant because you have now been denied due process and you are considered guilty until proven innocent.
    
    Now you, your lovely wife and two deputies have been killed for nothing. Your daughter will have absolute hell for the rest of her life. She will never be that successful person you dreamed for her to be because of the mental tragedy caused from seeing her parents murdered. The local news paper will report that you were killed after firing on and killing two deputies and that “over a thousand rounds of ammo and 22 guns were confiscated from your residence”.
    
    Oh, those two deputies were just following orders. They left behind families as well and had served their community for over a decade. They didn’t know you were a stand-up guy with a great family. They weren’t allowed time to investigate things under due process. They were told you had threatened your neighbor and were out in the street waving an AR15 around.
    
    This is the reality of Red Flag gun laws. Innocent people will lose their lives. Red Flag laws will be used for petty and vengeful reasons without merit.
    -Chris Anders
    What's up with your " code: "? I can only read part of it. Will not scroll far enough to the right to read it all. And why that way to post it anyway?
    Last edited by Ghostpanther; 2019-08-10 at 11:01 PM.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  13. #52873
    Herald of the Titans bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    What's up with your " code: "? I can only read part of it. Will not scroll far enough to the right to read it all. And why that way to post it anyway?
    Sounds like a you problem, it prevents a wall of text, and it works just fine.

  14. #52874
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    Sounds like a you problem, it prevents a wall of text, and it works just fine.
    Well, I guess I will have no input into your post. Which is ok by me. Thanks for the reply. I will know now in the future if you make another post using that method.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  15. #52875
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Well, I guess I will have no input into your post. Which is ok by me. Thanks for the reply. I will know now in the future if you make another post using that method.
    Shurg, didn't work for me either (funny part it will let me scroll a little on your re-quote on it but not all the way, but nothing in his post it just cuts it off) odd way to post something.

  16. #52876
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    Shurg, didn't work for me either (funny part it will let me scroll a little on your re-quote on it but not all the way, but nothing in his post it just cuts it off) odd way to post something.
    Interestingly enough if you "quote" his post it will let you read the whole dang thing in your reply window. Either way, its a ridiculous fearmonger story filled with hyperbole and vitriol toward the left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardhyn View Post
    Now this is just blatant trolling, at least before you had the credibility of maybe being stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    Sometimes you gotta stop sniffing used schoolgirl panties and start being a fucking samurai.

  17. #52877
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasttey View Post
    Interestingly enough if you "quote" his post it will let you read the whole dang thing in your reply window. Either way, its a ridiculous fearmonger story filled with hyperbole and vitriol toward the left.
    I did that and it still will not let me read it all. And I figured it was some type of fearmonger story, with a left tilt. Thanks for confirming it.
    " America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    - Abraham Lincoln
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
    – George Washington.

  18. #52878
    Quick question intended primarily for pro-control people - I've been muddling through thinking about the ostensibly common sense idea that mentally ill people shouldn't have guns. i think that they're right that this feels like it's basically common sense, that mentally ill people are prone to hurting themselves or others. That sounds pretty obvious and if I could wave a wand to magic a way to mentally ill people not being armed, I'd wave that wand. But...

    I don't follow how this is going to fit with HIPAA protections. Generally speaking, medical privacy is tightly protected (read more here) and can't be accessed by anyone other than healthcare providers without the explicit consent of the patient. Patient health information violations are treated very seriously in the medical industry. So what's the proposed flow of data here? All mental health data is aggregated and reported to some federal agency I suppose is the idea. How's that intended to work in practice? I go to a store to buy a hunting rifle, they enter my info into some federal database and it tells them... what exactly? Just a generic "Person Cannot Buy Gun" message to protect privacy I suppose, but now as the buyer I'm in a circumstance where I'm being denied one of my civil rights and I don't even know why.

    I have some other concerns on the specifics of implementation (e.g. what diagnoses make some too crazy to own a gun, who decides on that, for how long, etc.), but it's really the patient privacy thing I'm having trouble figuring out a sensible plan for that lines up with basic expectations of patient privacy. This seems guaranteed to have a chilling effect on people that would otherwise seek mental health assistance.

  19. #52879
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Quick question intended primarily for pro-control people - I've been muddling through thinking about the ostensibly common sense idea that mentally ill people shouldn't have guns. i think that they're right that this feels like it's basically common sense, that mentally ill people are prone to hurting themselves or others. That sounds pretty obvious and if I could wave a wand to magic a way to mentally ill people not being armed, I'd wave that wand. But...

    I don't follow how this is going to fit with HIPAA protections. Generally speaking, medical privacy is tightly protected (read more here) and can't be accessed by anyone other than healthcare providers without the explicit consent of the patient. Patient health information violations are treated very seriously in the medical industry. So what's the proposed flow of data here? All mental health data is aggregated and reported to some federal agency I suppose is the idea. How's that intended to work in practice? I go to a store to buy a hunting rifle, they enter my info into some federal database and it tells them... what exactly? Just a generic "Person Cannot Buy Gun" message to protect privacy I suppose, but now as the buyer I'm in a circumstance where I'm being denied one of my civil rights and I don't even know why.

    I have some other concerns on the specifics of implementation (e.g. what diagnoses make some too crazy to own a gun, who decides on that, for how long, etc.), but it's really the patient privacy thing I'm having trouble figuring out a sensible plan for that lines up with basic expectations of patient privacy. This seems guaranteed to have a chilling effect on people that would otherwise seek mental health assistance.
    Well in theory you would have a panel of professionals do reviews of cases like these to determine. A person would get a do not sell flag with a number to contact to appeal their case in theory they would already know this because the red flag laws would have due process. There's no need for private medical information to be leaked outside the panel and the court review process.

    I am saying this knowing full well the odds of anything being done now that Trump has said the NRA needs to be listened to are close to zero, republicans will just run out the news cycle clock.

  20. #52880
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Well in theory you would have a panel of professionals do reviews of cases like these to determine. A person would get a do not sell flag with a number to contact to appeal their case in theory they would already know this because the red flag laws would have due process. There's no need for private medical information to be leaked outside the panel and the court review process.

    I am saying this knowing full well the odds of anything being done now that Trump has said the NRA needs to be listened to are close to zero, republicans will just run out the news cycle clock.
    I'm not following - what triggers that information to the panel? What's the expected workflow for sending information from care provider to trigger a red flag? I have a fair bit of hands-on familiarity with how medical information exchange works and it seems to me that people that are glossing over this like it's not a huge change with massive expense and dubious legality are pretty naive about how they'd expect it to work in practice.

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