Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[lockedout]

As soon as the American society realizes guns are as harmless as a knife, pencil, bat, sword, hammer, screwdriver while not in the hands of a moron.......this ridiculous topic will continue to be discussed based on fictitious, hyperbole arguments like calling something an "assault rifle" based solely on how it looks and not the functionality.

I agree but it's assault weapon an assault rifle is an actual thing.

[Eroginous]

Five posts or so behind h8papa came up with a detailed post on why weapons in Mexico are mainly from the USA.

I might be missing something (feel free to point it out), but I was responding to someone making the claim that gun violence in Mexico is evidence that gun availability in neighboring countries makes policies ineffective.

To which I countered by pointing out the assumption he's making by stating that.

Then you came along to say 'hurhur, you should be embarrassed' instead of actually saying anything of substance to counter my statement.

I've looked at HBpapa's posts, and he's not talking about all guns in Mexico, just the ones confiscated in gang related activity. Of which, only about 10-15% are US military issued weapons.

He also points out that 'US military issue' does not equate to 'obtained in the US.' If our country sells another country guns, and those guns end up being stolen by/sold to criminals, that is not the same as someone coming to the US to buy a gun to take back to Mexico.

It's quite the opposite, in fact.

So this notion that Mexico gets most of their guns from the US is not only incorrect, it's entirely fictional.

[Mayhem]

What exactly does quoting these bullet points seek to prove?

Higher firearm ownership does not correlate to higher levels of violence. Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.

point 3? uhm

and how can homicide be non violent? i uhm homicide = killing, no?

[Tinykong]

point 3? uhm

Which is refuted by Vermont and Switzerland.

[Deleted]

You have created this "society" versus "individual" red herring. The risk is the same. Fearing something that has a 0.009% risk is irrational. You are more likely to die falling down the stairs, or in an automobile accident. Do you have fears of those things, as well?

red herring my ass. How many people die each year in the USA compared to any other developed country? Yes THAT'S the issue society should be focused on.
What a ridicolous point. What are the chances of you crashing the car for drink driving? Does that mean that shouldn't be an issue if lets say my country had an hypothetical stratospherical number of drink driving deaths compared to other developed countries? Because still it's only a small %?

I pointed out that there are many factors other than "gun control" that are responsible for overall firearm related violence and homicides.

and I've been asking you which ones. Question you keep dodging like the fucking matrix.

Comparing two countries per capita rates and saying "Gun control works!" is intellectually dishonest.

you're right. It's much more honest to talk about some random factors you have been called to specify many times and never answered. thats intellectual honesty for tinykong!

You have to account for all the other possible causes if you want to establish a casual relationship. I'm not going to do it for you

no, you're not, we can clearly see that.
No problem, I can do it for you. What factors do you think affect these absolutely ridiculous numbers? Economy? Social and economical divisions? Ethnic differences and tensions perhaps? Lack of proper education? of social support? what is it that makes the usa socioeconomically unique?

if you want to make those claims, you create the basis for the argument. I pointed out a couple just to illustrate that such things exist, and that they contribute to higher rates.

they contribute. That's true. You know what else contribute? Having an absolutely unregulated system where you can buy unchecked, where the CORPORATIONS behind the guns industry have created such a cultural background between the masses to back them up that they sell fucking guns for KIDS in PINK and people fucking BUY them, having a gun per capita DOUBLE the one of Switzerland, the closest developed nation to follow after YEMEN.
This also contribute. Massively. Not admitting it REALLY is intellectual dishonesty.

Higher firearm ownership does not correlate to higher levels of violence. Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.

Not with violence. thats silly. nice juggling though. you tried.
It may correlate to higher firearm homicides though.
And this you have to explain cause its cryptic.
"A firearm homicide is not always firearm violence"?!

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Which is refuted by Vermont and Switzerland.

Switzerland has half the guns per capita you have and MUCH better education about it. What was your point again?

[TZucchini]

Switzerland has half the guns per capita you have and MUCH better education about it. What was your point again?

And much tighter firearm regulation.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Dear Hyberbole users.


Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.




Please stop. Pro-Gun and Anti-Gun. Thank you and godspeed to us all.

[Mayhem]

Which is refuted by Vermont and Switzerland.

this study is refuted? what?

switzerland has less homicides probably because the main reason they have that high of gun ownership is because they are required by military and therefor are trained to handle, still they have a significant higher suicide rate and out of the developed nations switzerland ranks top 4 in homicide rate... yeah, thats a refute

so that leaves us with vermont, vermont refutes everything

[Tinykong]

red herring my ass. How many people die each year in the USA compared to any other developed country? Yes THAT'S the issue society should be focused on.
What a ridicolous point. What are the chances of you crashing the car for drink driving? Does that mean that shouldn't be an issue if lets say my country had an hypothetical stratospherical number of drink driving deaths compared to other developed countries? Because still it's only a small %?

Do you actually have an argument to present?

and I've been asking you which ones. Question you keep dodging like the fucking matrix.
you're right. It's much more honest to talk about some random factors you have been called to specify many times and never answered. thats intellectual honesty for tinykong! no, you're not, we can clearly see that.

As I've said already, I don't know what they are and have no interest in formulating a list for you. You're making the correlation, you build it.

No problem, I can do it for you. What factors do you think affect these absolutely ridiculous numbers? Economy? Social and economical divisions? Ethnic differences and tensions perhaps? Lack of proper education? of social support? what is it that makes the usa socioeconomically unique? they contribute. That's true. You know what else contribute? Having an absolutely unregulated system where you can buy unchecked, where the CORPORATIONS behind the guns industry have created such a cultural background between the masses to back them up that they sell fucking guns for KIDS in PINK and people fucking BUY them, having a gun per capita DOUBLE the one of Switzerland, the closest developed nation to follow after YEMEN.
This also contribute. Massively. Not admitting it REALLY is intellectual dishonesty.

I stopped reading when you put on your tin foil hat and started spouting conspiracy theories.

Not with violence. thats silly. nice juggling though. you tried.
It may correlate to higher firearm homicides though.
And this you have to explain cause its cryptic.
"A firearm homicide is not always firearm violence"?!

There is no juggling here, just your inability to understand the difference between firearm violence and a firearm homicide.

Switzerland has half the guns per capita you have and MUCH better education about it. What was your point again?

That there is no causal relationship established between higher gun ownership rates per capita and higher firearm violence/crime.

[Wildtree]

this study is refuted? what?

switzerland has less homicides probably because the main reason they have that high of gun ownership is because they are required by military and therefor are trained to handle, still they have a significant higher suicide rate and out of the developed nations switzerland ranks top 4 in homicide rate... yeah, thats a refute

so that leaves us with vermont, vermont refutes everything

The reason why Switzerlands gun violence figures are a lot lower than those in the US is, how they have gun regulation which would be reason for some gun activists in the US to call out a civil war over gun ownership.

Background checks? CHECK
Track records on when the gun is used? CHECK
Track records on how much ammo is used? CHECK

And I believe they even have to attend some class to obtain the license in the first place.

All things you cannot come up with in the US, because it would violate their freedom...
Individual freedom values higher in the US than the freedom of the society as a whole..

We may see that as asocial, but that's how the game is played in the US.

[Deleted]

I might be missing something (feel free to point it out), but I was responding to someone making the claim that gun violence in Mexico is evidence that gun availability in neighboring countries makes policies ineffective.

To which I countered by pointing out the assumption he's making by stating that.

Then you came along to say 'hurhur, you should be embarrassed' instead of actually saying anything of substance to counter my statement.

I've looked at HBpapa's posts, and he's not talking about all guns in Mexico, just the ones confiscated in gang related activity. Of which, only about 10-15% are US military issued weapons.

He also points out that 'US military issue' does not equate to 'obtained in the US.' If our country sells another country guns, and those guns end up being stolen by/sold to criminals, that is not the same as someone coming to the US to buy a gun to take back to Mexico.

It's quite the opposite, in fact.

So this notion that Mexico gets most of their guns from the US is not only incorrect, it's entirely fictional.

I applaud your stretching.
The Mexican army gets their weapon from the USA. Their legal (legal for how long) supply comes from the USA. Yet their gangs get their guns from South America. And the reason they do that is unknown...

[Tinykong]

this study is refuted? what?

switzerland has less homicides probably because the main reason they have that high of gun ownership is because they are required by military and therefor are trained to handle, still they have a significant higher suicide rate and out of the developed nations switzerland ranks top 4 in homicide rate... yeah, thats a refute

so that leaves us with vermont, vermont refutes everything

When it comes to a causal relationship, yes, it does.

[Wildtree]

There is no juggling here, just your inability to understand the difference between firearm violence and a firearm homicide

Homicide is always violent... No if's no buts. There are differences in homicides, as in intentional and unintentional. But it's always violence.

[Tinykong]

I applaud your stretching.
The Mexican army gets their weapon from the USA. Their legal (legal for how long) supply comes from the USA. Yet their gangs get their guns from South America. And the reason they do that is unknown...

If the Mexican Army imports firearms from US manufacturers, and then they lose them to theft or when people desert, the US isn't supplying the arms, the Mexican government is.

[Mayhem]

When it comes to a causal relationship, yes, it does.

vermont, has 600k citizens, the biggest city has less than 50k ... and people in here said the difference between the US and chile, turkey and other countries is to high, but hey vermont refutes everything

please tell me you have something else than vermont

[Tinykong]

vermont, has 600k citizens, the biggest city has less than 50k ... and people in here said the difference between the US and chile, turkey and other countries is to high, but hey vermont refutes everything

please tell me you have something else than vermont

Oh, so now population density impacts violence rates?

[Mayhem]

Oh, so now population density impacts violence rates?

yep, that exactly was my point, not that vermont is but a fraction of the US, nope, you got it, that´s why i mentioned chile and turkey, because of population density

[Tinykong]

Homicide is always violent... No if's no buts. There are differences in homicides, as in intentional and unintentional. But it's always violence.

Justified shootings are not always violent crime. For example, a cop who shoots and kills someone justifiably has not committed a violent crime, but has committed a firearm homicide.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr.../violent-crime

"In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault."

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yep, that exactly was my point, not that vermont is but a fraction of the US, nope, you got it, that´s why i mentioned chile and turkey, because of population density

So basically you're proving the argument for us: there is no causal relationship between ownership rates and higher rates of violence/crime. There are too many other contributory factors to make that statement.

[TZucchini]

I'm not sure what you're debating Tiny. We've linked multiple studies that link gun ownership with firearm deaths.

Hell. This one even concludes that gun ownership is a bigger factor than mental illness when it comes to firearms deaths.

[Deleted]

Do you actually have an argument to present?

you haven't had enough yet? Some people...

As I've said already, I don't know what they are and have no interest in formulating a list for you. You're making the correlation, you build it.

then don't fuckin mention them in the first place if you don't know what you're talking about. I did formulate a list for you which you *surprise* ignored yet again because....

I stopped reading when you put on your tin foil hat and started spouting conspiracy theories.

... of THIS. You genius. Hoping for a rebounce huh? Failed miserably. Try again. I'm not talking about secret freemasons, I'm talking about big companies minding their business before people. Does it surprise you?
Well it shouldn't since you live in the country that better adopted this new form called "corporativism".

There is no juggling here

ahahahahahahahah listen to this lads. Watch him fuck himself up right...

That there is no causal relationship established between higher gun ownership rates per capita and higher firearm violence/crime.

... here!! You genius!
I NEVER talked about firearm VIOLENCE or CRIMES. You know why? Cause I know there's some sneaky "forum smooth talking jugglers" like yourself READY to switch on the go.
Read carefully all my posts when I always refer to gun homicides, a grim chart which USA somehow surprisingly tops, TOTALLY by coincidence.
It's no problem though. It's only %