Ghostcrawler on Ret PvP

[nyc81991]

So apparently Gc said this on his Twitter.

We think Ret is almost exactly where it should be. Decent mobility. Tons of utility. Some offhealing capability. Reliable Power.

Now while I'm kind of happy with Ret I have to wonder, Where does Blizzard think Ret should be in Pvp? I mean Ret is not an amazing spec for PvP. The biggest thing Ret brings to the table is being able to off heal. Our damage is good while using Cd's and then pretty bad when they are down. With the nerfs to hybrid healing and the over all nerf to healing in Pvp Ret's self healing is horrible. WoG is healing for around 30k with 3 holy power. Current health pools are over 360k meaning it would take over 10 casts of WoG with 3 holy power to get full health.

I think if Blizzard can buff ret's survivability through either healing or a new defensive cd the spec will be where it should be. However by the sound of Ghost Crawler they are happy to leave Ret where it is (not very good in arena or rated bg's).

[Reith]

If by "almost exactly" he means "needs a bit more survivability at this point after nerfing their healing into the ground which is the main source of Ret's survivability," then I agree. Otherwise, he's clueless.

I've personally given up on PVP until it's fixed.

[Johnx014]

I'll agree that we have excellent mobility, great burst, and utility, but our survivability is nonexistant. After we're forced to pop our bubble then we're as good as dead. There is no reason to take a ret over a warrior.

[Spiral]

right where it should be.. in the grouuund!

[Xothic]

Ghostcrawlers parents were killed by Paladins.

[nyc81991]

If by "almost exactly" he means "needs a bit more survivability at this point after nerfing their healing into the ground which is the main source of Ret's survivability," then I agree. Otherwise, he's clueless.

I've personally given up on PVP until it's fixed.

I hope that is what he meant but given Blizzards history with Ret you never really know.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 11:56 PM ----------

Ghostcrawlers parents were killed by Paladins.

Wait so Ghostcrawler's parents were undead?... Things are actually starting to make sense now...

[Mirishka]

Its not the strength of individual spells but the combination of them. Between talents, stuns, periods of invulnerability, heals, etc... ret is plenty potent. Guildie/friend of mine absolutely wrecks faces with the spec in PvP stuff.

Its easy to single out WoG as being a weak heal (and it is in most cases) but that's just one card in a pretty diverse deck. You have to look at the bigger picture.

[Dristereau]

Hahahaha xD

Ahem.. funny post ;D I play a Mage, Ret and Warrior, and the Ret would have no chance against either of them. FoL heals for 30k, TV hits like scissors against rock unless the person has 300k hp. Warrior pops cooldowns and Ret's might as well roll over, although we have decent mobility, the amount of slows and cc's in the game means that practically means nothing unless we spam emanticipate, and the only main stun we have is HoJ/FoJ. As already said we have no survivability outside cooldowns. Ask Vanguards what he thinks of Rets. Personally I think we need the Cataclysm Sacred Shield back again.

[nyc81991]

Its not the strength of individual spells but the combination of them. Between talents, stuns, periods of invulnerability, heals, etc... ret is plenty potent. Guildie/friend of mine absolutely wrecks faces with the spec in PvP stuff.

Its easy to single out WoG as being a weak heal (and it is in most cases) but that's just one card in a pretty diverse deck. You have to look at the bigger picture.

Bubble is only usefull if you can actually heal while its up (which any warrior or priest can remove). Heals are not anywhere near good at the moment and that is Ret's main defense. Warriors have shield wall, Die by the sword and a passive heal under 30% health giving them better survivability all around. Ret's damage is pretty good while Cd's are up but sustained damage is a joke. Warriors have insane burst and great sustained damage along with better CC.

There is no reason for people to take rets into high rated bg's and Ret is not a top arena spec at all.

[Booniehat]

Its not the strength of individual spells but the combination of them. Between talents, stuns, periods of invulnerability, heals, etc... ret is plenty potent. Guildie/friend of mine absolutely wrecks faces with the spec in PvP stuff.

Its easy to single out WoG as being a weak heal (and it is in most cases) but that's just one card in a pretty diverse deck. You have to look at the bigger picture.

Is this regarding rated stuff? I used to think that Ret was underrated as well, and invested a lot of time gearing and playing my ret pally. Kept believing that people were just whining about it.

But there is a "ret ceiling" in the rated PVP parts of the game. Ret, post nerf, can barely survive in a competitive environment. Up to 1600+ it's excellent due to its cooldown burst. Then people get a clue and CC/dispel the crap out of you and to get to a 1800+ rating, you need to play at a 2000 level. (numbers are made up to make my point). That's just how it is.

Crapy WOGs, dispellable selfless healer, predictable bubble which gets burst by 2 of the most common/powerful specs (shadow and warrior). The only thing we have is our Wings + HA + Trinket. "Train the Ret" is a common arena saying for a good reason.

In RBGs, they tolerate rets, but almost every other melee is taken over us - DKs have blood and frost as FC and target caller. Rogues are excellent FCs as well, can ninja cap and call targets well. Warriors and Ferals are obviously preferred more. We're down there with WW and Enhancement.

Trust me, I've tried keeping an open mind, thinking of myself as a support healer. That worked pre-nerf and I was actually thinking Ret was just underated. But with after non PVP power to our heals, 30% healing nerf, that's like an 60% nerf for a Ret.

Pre nerf, Assuming a 100K heal:

100K heal * 50% PVP power = 150K.

Post nerf, PVP power doesn't affect heals. 30% Battle fatigue.

150 - (50%*100) * 70% = 70K heal.

The 50% pvp power is a pretty low estimate from having T1 weapon, and 5 malevolent gear. For fully malev geared rets the drop in healing is even more drastic.

I get that ret is something like 70% DPSer, 30% healer/support. Now, healing's a joke for us. So we're effectively like 80% of a class compared to others.

So no, Ret is not okay.. There is a reason Vanguards, the top Ret player, rerolled to Enhancement.

[Dristereau]

Warriors have shield wall, Die by the sword and a passive heal under 30% health giving them better survivability all around. Ret's damage is pretty good while Cd's are up but sustained damage is a joke. Warriors have insane burst and great sustained damage along with better CC.

There is no reason for people to take rets into high rated bg's and Ret is not a top arena spec at all.

To sum up, Warrior's turn in to a turtle below 35% xD

[nyc81991]

To sum up, Warrior's turn in to a turtle below 35% xD

Yeah pretty much, And Ret paladins turn into turtle soup.

[Bigbamboozal]

wait...your talk of 3hp wogs x many to fill up...well, it's sort of odd, I think the 3 stacks and a flash from selfless healer are much more reasonable.
Then again I tend to like unbreakable spirit and all the LOH in bg's it allows.
Having things purgable means we need to be more tactical about our approach, but I'm fairly happy with our damage output, defensive cd's, all that. We have a gap closer, we have one more cc, I guess I feel it could be a lot worse, but I'm not sure how I'd make it better.
Also...warriors below 35% are hard? pop a trinket..ffs seriously, it can be done.

[nyc81991]

wait...your talk of 3hp wogs x many to fill up...well, it's sort of odd, I think the 3 stacks and a flash from selfless healer are much more reasonable.
Then again I tend to like unbreakable spirit and all the LOH in bg's it allows.
Having things purgable means we need to be more tactical about our approach, but I'm fairly happy with our damage output, defensive cd's, all that. We have a gap closer, we have one more cc, I guess I feel it could be a lot worse, but I'm not sure how I'd make it better.
Also...warriors below 35% are hard? pop a trinket..ffs seriously, it can be done.

Selfless healer only does about 30k aswell when you are healing yourself. It only gives an increase if you use it on someone else. Either way it still is bad.

Also, Try killing a geared warrior that is using shield wall, Die by the sword and rallying cry all while they are getting 10k health per second in arena.

[Deleted]

What worries me is that the poor healing that we have at the moment won't scale much if at all in the future. Basically what we have now is what we will have in 6 months. We might get 5% more healing from the extra strength or something but that's it. While everyone else's damage will scale.


Ghostcrawler is feigning ignorance. He won't care unless most ret paladins stop playing, but sadly tons of people are content playing a broken class.

[Reith]

Its not the strength of individual spells but the combination of them. Between talents, stuns, periods of invulnerability, heals, etc... ret is plenty potent. Guildie/friend of mine absolutely wrecks faces with the spec in PvP stuff.

Subjectivity is subjective. I don't know what situation they "wreck faces with." Random battlegrounds really don't count. Duels really don't count. under 2.2k rating really doesn't count. Talents are not an argument for why Ret is good. Ret only has one stun. Divine Shield is a 2.5 minute cooldown at best if you're not talented into Clemency, lasts for 8 seconds, you do half damage and can be removed by Warriors and Priests. The heals are underwhelming after the battle fatigue increase.

Its easy to single out WoG as being a weak heal (and it is in most cases) but that's just one card in a pretty diverse deck. You have to look at the bigger picture.

I agree that Ret (and its survivability) was fine after the PVP power nerf, but after the battle fatigue increase, it most certainly is not fine.

---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 08:27 AM ----------

wait...your talk of 3hp wogs x many to fill up...well, it's sort of odd, I think the 3 stacks and a flash from selfless healer are much more reasonable.
Then again I tend to like unbreakable spirit and all the LOH in bg's it allows.

That's your problem. Random BGs are not balanced. Start PVPing at higher levels and you'll quickly run into a wall.

[Theholypally]

wait...your talk of 3hp wogs x many to fill up...well, it's sort of odd, I think the 3 stacks and a flash from selfless healer are much more reasonable.
Then again I tend to like unbreakable spirit and all the LOH in bg's it allows.
Having things purgable means we need to be more tactical about our approach, but I'm fairly happy with our damage output, defensive cd's, all that. We have a gap closer, we have one more cc, I guess I feel it could be a lot worse, but I'm not sure how I'd make it better.
Also...warriors below 35% are hard? pop a trinket..ffs seriously, it can be done.

This bolded part tells me you dont do RBGs at all.

[Deleted]

We need PVP Power to buff healing slightly. Not by a lot, but it still needs to scale a bit otherwise our poor healing will stand still.

[Noujou]

i stopped pvping on my ret simply because i dont like being a burst class... our damage under wings/HA is awesome, but if the only way to have non dirt damage when cds are on cd is to use DP, but thats proc based so its meh.... i dont know, i wish ret has higher sustained/better sustained pressure...but i havnt pvp'ed in a long time so take what i say with a grain of salt.

[Theholypally]

GC is an idiot if he thinks ret is in a good place. But hey, no surprise there.