Major AoE tanking paladin Seal of Insight Nerf!

[Thyranne]

By how much, though? Without numbers, "he does more DPS than me" doesn't mean much.

I don't have the numbers right now. If we raid tonight I'll show u.

You have an AoE stun (with a glyph, anyways). If you don't want to use the Blinding Light glyph, then have your group focus-fire a specific target so the rest of the group suffers through the full disorient. You also have the option to talent a really good stun on a 30s CD.

It has a 2 mins cooldown and I have to spend a glyph slot for that.

That's healing your healers don't have to do, ever. There's nowhere to go but up for Prot Paladin healing in a fight. DK healing, for example, is at the whims of the damage they take.

Thats the thing. They can survive longer than any other tank without a healer and also do great dps (which prot pallies lack).

We're comparing the mitigation here. So, when calling out Death Strike, we're talking about the Blood Shield portion of it. Once you get SS up and rolling, you shouldn't let it fall off. So you will be guaranteed an absorb shield every 6 seconds (or more frequently, if you like haste).

So, DKs can self heal, do a lot of damage and get a shield in the same GCD?

Because it's more fun to deal with the weaknesses and strengths of a class that you like. You either overcome your problems, or give up.

Which will you do?

I enjoy challanges but I don't enjoy having to change my play style every week.

Now let me ask you this:

If you had to choose between the best blood DK in the world and the best protection paladin in the world, which one would you choose for challange modes? Why?

[Deleted]

If you had to choose between the best blood DK in the world and the best protection paladin in the world, which one would you choose for challange modes? Why?

The best Blood DK most likely. But I can assure you, if you're making such a big deal about "having to change my playstyle every week" and not just sucking it up and learning to... Right. I forgot nothing changes in practice apart from being able to get double healing from HotR single-target, which I didn't do anyway.

[Polarthief]

Hammer of the righteous no longer procs multiple Seal of insights..



Yay for blizzard!

Whelp, fuck. So glad I leveled my paladin alt.

---------- Post added 2012-12-19 at 10:53 AM ----------

Then why don't everyone roll mage or w/e is the strongest class in PvP to get gladiator?

I guess that's why Mages are only represented by 8% of Arena folk, making us middle to under middle of the pack. This was also PRE-nerfs.

On topic: I'm kinda curious why they did this. DKs have plenty more mitigation; the only thing Prot now has is SotR now that SoI is crap.

[Thyranne]

The best Blood DK most likely. But I can assure you, if you're making such a big deal about "having to change my playstyle every week" and not just sucking it up and learning to... Right. I forgot nothing changes in practice apart from being able to get double healing from HotR single-target, which I didn't do anyway.

Exactly. Why did they nerf us if we weren't even the best tank in game? Our damage is already laughable and now they nerf our self heals?

This change hurts more CM than raids and in CM that thing was really important and now it's gone.

I guess that's why Mages are only represented by 8% of Arena folk, making us middle to under middle of the pack. This was also PRE-nerfs.

I used mages as an example (hence the "or w/e is the strongest class in PvP")

[Deleted]

Ah well, it was to be expected.

A bug is still a bug, even if it favors us greatly.

[Deleted]

If they compensated us with all GCDs being affected by haste, I would be happy.

[Malthanis]

It has a 2 mins cooldown and I have to spend a glyph slot for that.

Well, what other glyphs are you using? Why are you using them? Would glyphing BL be of better use than the glyphs you're currently using?

Thats the thing. They can survive longer than any other tank without a healer and also do great dps (which prot pallies lack).

A 2H weapon plus Vengeance is a powerful thing. I'm not surprised they do a large amount of damage. But what's the variance? I don't have access to numbers right now, so I can't pull up the difference between a Blood DK and a Prot Paladin.

So, DKs can self heal, do a lot of damage and get a shield in the same GCD?

Yep, because that's the central "active mitigation" mechanic of their class. Ours is split between ShotR (and the Bastion of Glory physical damage reduction buff) and WoG (with the bonus healing from Bastion).

I enjoy challanges but I don't enjoy having to change my play style every week.

That can be a problem with any MMO, especially for bleeding edge content (like heroic raids and challenge modes) that don't see much testing in the beta or public test realms.

If you had to choose between the best blood DK in the world and the best protection paladin in the world, which one would you choose for challange modes? Why?

To be honest? Neither. If it was a paladin, I'd be the one tanking it. If a DK, it'd be my offtank. None of us are looking for the best times in the world, we would just be happy with the challenge and beating our previous times.

[Fhi]

The best Blood DK most likely. But I can assure you, if you're making such a big deal about "having to change my playstyle every week" and not just sucking it up and learning to... Right. I forgot nothing changes in practice apart from being able to get double healing from HotR single-target, which I didn't do anyway.

I understand why the change has to be put in. In all truthfulness, it doesn't really affect raiding at all - except for a couple of AoE-centric bosses. It's a QoL invincibility nerf. Doesn't even affect pvp at all. Only heroics (which I do a lot), soloing to some extent (have to start being careful), and challenge mode (which I haven't done but I definitely see how it hurts CM the most).

But hell, I'm allowed to be pissed at the change.

[Reith]

This is fucking insulting, seriously. Why even nerf this? Why? I can't even fathom a possible reason as to how this was unintended or overpowered in any way. It's not like it made Prot Paladins better than Blood DKs. All this nerf does is hurt me when I'm doing dailies or farming mobs for motes or meat. Blizzard has no idea what they're doing. If they would actually make Ret AOE not shit, then I wouldn't care as much. Seal of Righteousness is a joke.

[Thyranne]

Well, what other glyphs are you using? Why are you using them? Would glyphing BL be of better use than the glyphs you're currently using?

Glyph of the Battle Healer, Glyph of Divine Protection and Glyph of Consecration.

Glyph of the Battle Healer because it helps healers.

Glyph of Divine Protection because most damage in most dungeons are physical.

Glyph of Consecration because it saves 1 GCD on every pull and if there is an ranged mob but I can't move it helps with aggro.

A 2H weapon plus Vengeance is a powerful thing. I'm not surprised they do a large amount of damage. But what's the variance? I don't have access to numbers right now, so I can't pull up the difference between a Blood DK and a Prot Paladin.

I was watching some DKs in CM. They were always the top DPS.

That can be a problem with any MMO, especially for bleeding edge content (like heroic raids and challenge modes) that don't see much testing in the beta or public test realms.

People were talking about it since beta. They were too lazy to fix it or pretended it was not a bug. Still waiting for the WoG fix.

To be honest? Neither. If it was a paladin, I'd be the one tanking it. If a DK, it'd be my offtank. None of us are looking for the best times in the world, we would just be happy with the challenge and beating our previous times.

I meant like, if you had to start a group and you had to choose between the DK and the pally (but you won't play it, you are a DPS or healer).

[Deleted]

Exactly. Why did they nerf us if we weren't even the best tank in game? Our damage is already laughable and now they nerf our self heals?

This change hurts more CM than raids and in CM that thing was really important and now it's gone.

Because I interrupted my own sentence, I didn't get to say that I can assure you if you're making such a big deal out of it you're not the best paladin in the world, so you're not in the position you asked about. Class balance is not perfect and I don't think classes will be balanced over a Challenge mode anyway. As I said, stop whining and suck it up.

[Nairobi]

Was going for gold with my pally. Guess it's time to dust off the DK now and join the bandwagon.

Pally gold CM gear was fugly anyway.

[Agalor]

I see lots of crying on something that only effects us when we solo old raids or do challenge modes. As far as effecting me as a tank in a raid it hasn't. We downed Terrace again last night in 10 man, I thought about this thread as I was tanking Sha and watching my hps. I was doing 19, almost 20k hps. We're tanks. We are suppose to learn how to survive. Its a skill. Crying about not being high on the healing list? Then respect Holy. I know I do crap dps compared to my other tank, a druid, but nobody cares,I'm a tank. The only thing anyone else cares about is me using CDs for the healers and keeping aggro off the dps. I do that. I'm happy with being a Prot pally. I've been a Prot since TBC, and will continue being Prot. Think challenge modes are hard now because you're Prot? Try getting into SSC or TK in TBC. We were great for Hyjal and BT, but crap for the others. We used spell power and didn't heal ourselves at all. Suck it up a move on, or reroll, its your call

[Nairobi]

I see lots of crying on something that only effects us when we solo old raids or do challenge modes. As far as effecting me as a tank in a raid it hasn't. We downed Terrace again last night in 10 man, I thought about this thread as I was tanking Sha and watching my hps. I was doing 19, almost 20k hps. We're tanks. We are suppose to learn how to survive. Its a skill. Crying about not being high on the healing list? Then respect Holy. I know I do crap dps compared to my other tank, a druid, but nobody cares,I'm a tank. The only thing anyone else cares about is me using CDs for the healers and keeping aggro off the dps. I do that. I'm happy with being a Prot pally. I've been a Prot since TBC, and will continue being Prot. Think challenge modes are hard now because you're Prot? Try getting into SSC or TK in TBC. We were great for Hyjal and BT, but crap for the others. We used spell power and didn't heal ourselves at all. Suck it up a move on, or reroll, its your call

Strawmanning people by comparing to previous expansions is a terrible argument. It last literally no bearing on this discussion, and contributes nothing.

Further, nobody has claimed that it will prevent us from tanking normal raid content. Our complaint is that our niche as a moderate damage, non-trivial healing tank is now reduced. We keep our moderate (not poor, as you seem to think/experience) damage, and our utility, but we lost our raid/self healing component to a degree.

CM's are now noticeably more difficult, seeing as how the crux of every CM when going for gold is large pull/add management. We were a good option for this, as our previous self healing allowed healers to dps and shave those seconds. Now, we require babysitting, making pala's far less desirable. Are they still doable? Sure. Are we ideal? No, but we never were. This just widens the gap between us and DKs.

[Malthanis]

Glyph of the Battle Healer, Glyph of Divine Protection and Glyph of Consecration.

Glyph of the Battle Healer because it helps healers.

Glyph of Divine Protection because most damage in most dungeons are physical.

Glyph of Consecration because it saves 1 GCD on every pull and if there is an ranged mob but I can't move it helps with aggro.

Fair enough. I don't particularly like the DP glyph, but it could be potentially very powerful if you pair it with Unbreakable Spirit (if you talent it). As for those "unmovable" ranged mobs, you could move the pack to tank on top of them, perhaps?

I was watching some DKs in CM. They were always the top DPS.

Fair enough. I know DKs have a lot of ways to layer on AoE damage, but I don't know how it affects their survivability. I honestly wish there was some way for SoRighteousness to scale with our Vengeance. That would go a long way towards increasing our sustained AoE (and give us an actual reason to use the damned spell).

People were talking about it since beta. They were too lazy to fix it or pretended it was not a bug. Still waiting for the WoG fix.

There could have been other things that needed fixed before this, and the developers only got to it now. There's a lot that goes in to debugging any program, and one as large and complex as WoW necessitates picking and choosing your battles.

I meant like, if you had to start a group and you had to choose between the DK and the pally (but you won't play it, you are a DPS or healer).

Then I wouldn't be forming the group. I'm a painfully average Ret paladin, and I've never healed (on any class). I don't have the technical knowledge of all 11 classes in order to put together the best and most successful CM group, so I go off of personal experience.

[Fhi]

Fair enough. I know DKs have a lot of ways to layer on AoE damage, but I don't know how it affects their survivability. I honestly wish there was some way for SoRighteousness to scale with our Vengeance. That would go a long way towards increasing our sustained AoE (and give us an actual reason to use the damned spell).

It isn't just raw damage too. DKs are so good (along with heroism classes) for CMs because of the stuffs they bring to the table, notably the stun immunity and AoE stun. I've always been interested in CMs but never had a group and I don't think I'm at that skill level (gold, obviously) so I do pay attention to my realm's CM news. So far the gold beaters all had at least one DK, usually two.

CM is the worst example if "bring the class, not the player." >.<

[Agalor]

Strawmanning people by comparing to previous expansions is a terrible argument. It last literally no bearing on this discussion, and contributes nothing.

Further, nobody has claimed that it will prevent us from tanking normal raid content. Our complaint is that our niche as a moderate damage, non-trivial healing tank is now reduced. We keep our moderate (not poor, as you seem to think/experience) damage, and our utility, but we lost our raid/self healing component to a degree.

CM's are now noticeably more difficult, seeing as how the crux of every CM when going for gold is large pull/add management. We were a good option for this, as our previous self healing allowed healers to dps and shave those seconds. Now, we require babysitting, making pala's far less desirable. Are they still doable? Sure. Are we ideal? No, but we never were. This just widens the gap between us and DKs.

sure, using old references don't help with the argument, but neither does posting things without details. I've seen quite a few number of posts saying they are doing a lot less healing, but I haven't seen numbers to back it up. While yes, it is a nerf, is it a "Major AOE tanking nerf"? All I was trying to get at is, they nerfed us, it affects us in certain play styles, but it's not the end of the world. Hell, give Blizz a few more months, we'll be using Seal of Righteousness to tank. Remember not that long ago Insight was a Holy seal.

[Thyranne]

Because I interrupted my own sentence, I didn't get to say that I can assure you if you're making such a big deal out of it you're not the best paladin in the world, so you're not in the position you asked about. Class balance is not perfect and I don't think classes will be balanced over a Challenge mode anyway. As I said, stop whining and suck it up.

You missed the point. If we weren't the best tank class, why were we the only class that got a nerf?

Fair enough. I don't particularly like the DP glyph, but it could be potentially very powerful if you pair it with Unbreakable Spirit (if you talent it). As for those "unmovable" ranged mobs, you could move the pack to tank on top of them, perhaps?

Sometimes I don't have that option (like the trash between 3rd and 4th boss in Shado Pan Monastery). I also drop it in a place that I know that adds will spawn or pass there (like Grand Empress).

It's an awesome glyph. Sure I can live without it but...I'm too used to it

[Nairobi]

In terms of details and/or numbers, we can do some quick napkin math, as this is a very linear nerf due to the way in which the seal worked.

Assume a pull (in CM) of 6 adds. Melee uptime of 100% for simplicity's sake. HotR/CS CD is 4.25 sec (with normal raid gear nerfed to 463...may vary a bit, but this is a fair average). Vengeance with a large pull is frequently 80k+ AP (total). I've seen SoI heals from 8-23k per hit. We can take an average and call it 15k heal per proc.

Every 4.25 sec, we used to get 1+6 * 15k healing, or a 105k heal incoming. That may seem high, but keep in mind that during that time, you have 6 things beating the ever-living shit out of you. That's around 24.7k hps (from HotR alone) while there are 6 targets.

Now, we receive 1x 15k heal in that same timeframe, or 3.5k HPS from HotR, no matter the amount of targets.

Sustained HPS is not really the story in CMs, its all about burst and cooldowns, since the trash (and players) live and die by burst. This change really nerfs our burst self healing (outside of WOG)...I guess it is needed, since it was a passive burst heal, but it doesn't mean I like it.

[Malthanis]

CM is the worst example if "bring the class, not the player." >.<

I'm honestly not surprised by that at all. The upper difficulties of content usually end up that way, no matter what the design philosophy is.

You missed the point. If we weren't the best tank class, why were we the only class that got a nerf?

It's not a nerf. It's a bug fix. If our self-healing drops below what they deem is the appropriate level, they'll tune it back up in some way. The only problem is that the bug has skewed their numbers, so they need time to gather data that isn't corrupted by the bug.

Sometimes I don't have that option (like the trash between 3rd and 4th boss in Shado Pan Monastery). I also drop it in a place that I know that adds will spawn or pass there (like Grand Empress).

Those are the groups of anger manifestations, right? I'm guessing you mean the ones that cast the shadow rings?