Why is hunter design so lazy?

[skitzy129]

Personally what I would like to see:

Spec 1:

BM. This is the spec most reliant on pet damage and control. As it stands right now this is already the more 'unique' spec of the three.

Spec 2:

Combine SV and Marks. This is a ranged damage spec. Keep explosive shot for a rolling tick. Keep the strong AoE. Keep Chimera shot as a minor method of self healing and marginally strong shot to the point that it's used in rotation. Aimed shot and/or LnL procs and all that would have to be played with to find a good balance between not being OP, playing smooth, and not having way too much going on. Obviously keep all the utility shots such as scatter, tranq, etc.

Spec 3:

Some sort of melee based spec. Hunters don't HAVE to be all about bows and guns. Surely daggers and axes fit in to the theme of a Hunter just fine.

This would be the hardest to create from scratch at this point in the game, the most difficult part being making it unique enough to stand out from rogues, monks, and enhancement shamans. Ideally this would be the class that brings the raid cooldowns and utility, something Hunters can currently do but sort of in a crappy designed way with the entire "fill in the holes" approach to pet abilities.


Clearly my idea has a lot of holes and uncertainties in it at this time, but ideally something along those lines is what I would LOVE to see for Hunters in the future. A strong pet spec, a strong ranged spec, and a strong melee and utility spec. Right now the differences are really quite limited, and yes even at a top HC progression level. The biggest differences right now only come from the amount of damage signature abilities are doing. The play style remains almost entirely unchanged.

[Marmot]

Some sort of melee based spec. Hunters don't HAVE to be all about bows and guns. Surely daggers and axes fit in to the theme of a Hunter just fine.

Go look up the Vanilla version of Survival. Blizz tried it and it was pants.

[Spiralphoenix]

Go look up the Vanilla version of Survival. Blizz tried it and it was pants.

Because they had no idea what they were doing and Lacerate at level 60 hit like a level 20 warriors rend. If they wanted to make a hunter melee spec that would work, they could.

But they won't. Why would the archer/ranger class have a melee spec? We have 7 other classes capable of what is basically your standard melee playstyle. Not a single other class shoots a ranged weapon as its primary attack. It would make ranged weapons used by less than 1 class like they are now.

[Viradiance]

At least there's more difference than Rogues.

Imagine it's the same thing, but all of the buttons are the same regardless of what spec you use (I dare anyone to find a meaningful difference between backstab and sinister strike, barring the shit positional requirement)

[Kantoro]

Ah, the Munter. What memories I had of laughing at them.

[Divinespeed]

Can you give me some examples? I really don't agree with this at all. There is arbitrary bullshit like not using entrapment on top of melee, or the fact that survival AOE becomes better with less targets. People might over focus on simple mechanics because we have no complicated ones (i.e. using Focus Fire correctly for an extra 200 dps), but this is just an artificial disparity.

The basic idea of a hunter, Signature shot, focus regen shot, focus dump shots. Thats the feel they all have. But when you start breaking down each spec global by global, like, yes using FF correctly for 200 DPS, they play completely different.

At a global by global basis, BM has an extra CD that complete controls the spec. It also has FF, and a lot more pet control needed than the other two specs. In my opinion this all combined makes BM the most unique spec in the game. The massive amount of buttons, and small things you can do to slightly increase your damage is absolutely huge.

SV is 120% revolved around 3 spells. BA/ET SrpS and ES. At the top level of play SV is super dependent around lock and load procs, and controlling them in such a way that LnL is on CD as much as possible, while fitting as many ES's into procs/trinks/engi gloves. SV is probably the easiest of the three hunter specs, but maintaining as much up time on all your dots is what can make or break a great parse.

MM is different in that it has 2 "signature" shots. Being Chim and AiS. This on top of maintaining your 100% up time of ISS, makes marks different from the other two as well. Imo, MM is broken atm because of the cost of Chimera shot. When having to use focus on GT, DB, and maintain ISS, Chimera shot costs a lot of focus, and honestly, doesn't hit very hard. But that's neither here nor there. Marks has a "reverse execute" phase that makes it VERY VERY different from BM and SV.

[Nemesis003]

The basic idea of a hunter, Signature shot, focus regen shot, focus dump shots. Thats the feel they all have. But when you start breaking down each spec global by global, like, yes using FF correctly for 200 DPS, they play completely different.

At a global by global basis, BM has an extra CD that complete controls the spec. It also has FF, and a lot more pet control needed than the other two specs. In my opinion this all combined makes BM the most unique spec in the game. The massive amount of buttons, and small things you can do to slightly increase your damage is absolutely huge.

SV is 120% revolved around 3 spells. BA/ET SrpS and ES. At the top level of play SV is super dependent around lock and load procs, and controlling them in such a way that LnL is on CD as much as possible, while fitting as many ES's into procs/trinks/engi gloves. SV is probably the easiest of the three hunter specs, but maintaining as much up time on all your dots is what can make or break a great parse.

MM is different in that it has 2 "signature" shots. Being Chim and AiS. This on top of maintaining your 100% up time of ISS, makes marks different from the other two as well. Imo, MM is broken atm because of the cost of Chimera shot. When having to use focus on GT, DB, and maintain ISS, Chimera shot costs a lot of focus, and honestly, doesn't hit very hard. But that's neither here nor there. Marks has a "reverse execute" phase that makes it VERY VERY different from BM and SV.

the "reverse" execute is lame seeing how most of the time the first 20% of the fight is the fastest part of the fight.

[danko215]

The PVP axe pre-nerf from BC was a fun kill shot using raptor strike. Oh, the gallons of tears I collected from that was great. I still have stockpiles of it left there was so much. It's what helps sustain me through the Hunter rough times.

[Osmin]

He does have a very good point, all the specs play very similarly with only minor differences mainly in openers and burst, to the point that on my action bars I just swap out those abilities he mentioned and end up pressing mostly the same buttons in the same order in all specs.

[Gunba]

At a global by global basis, BM has an extra CD that complete controls the spec. It also has FF, and a lot more pet control needed than the other two specs. In my opinion this all combined makes BM the most unique spec in the game. The massive amount of buttons, and small things you can do to slightly increase your damage is absolutely huge.

BM has one more button than the other two specs, and that's only because the 'hit me when I light up' mechanic is on a new key rather than an already existing key. I don't see how you can say it has a 'massive amount of buttons'. You keep talking about how everything changes at top level play - how does pet control change across the specs? Do top level players just not pay attention to their pet when they are SV or MM?

SV is 120% revolved around 3 spells. BA/ET SrpS and ES. At the top level of play SV is super dependent around lock and load procs, and controlling them in such a way that LnL is on CD as much as possible, while fitting as many ES's into procs/trinks/engi gloves. SV is probably the easiest of the three hunter specs, but maintaining as much up time on all your dots is what can make or break a great parse.

Controlling Lock and Load procs? Are you Ice Trapping or something? You get a Lock and Load proc, you use it. I don't see how your idea of somehow trying to use ES within 'procs/trinkets/engi gloves' is spec dependent. The only dot you have to actually maintain uptime on is SrS, which is the same for every spec. Explosive Shot is not a real DOT and Black Arrow just fills the gap left by AiS or BW.

MM is different in that it has 2 "signature" shots. Being Chim and AiS. This on top of maintaining your 100% up time of ISS, makes marks different from the other two as well. Imo, MM is broken atm because of the cost of Chimera shot. When having to use focus on GT, DB, and maintain ISS, Chimera shot costs a lot of focus, and honestly, doesn't hit very hard. But that's neither here nor there. Marks has a "reverse execute" phase that makes it VERY VERY different from BM and SV.

I don't think any 'top level hunter' really cares about a 'reverse execute' when the first 20% of any given fight is usually irrelevant. Maintaining ISS now requires absolutely no thought whatsoever (the odds of you not using Steady Shot twice in a row over 20 seconds are pretty low).

It really just seems to me like you are doing exactly what I said people do earlier - overcomplicate stupid shit because there is really nothing complex about this class. You literally just said that the one extra button BM has to deal with is a 'massive amount of buttons' and that BM is the 'most unique spec in the game'.

[Deepfriedegg]

He does have a very good point, all the specs play very similarly with only minor differences mainly in openers and burst, to the point that on my action bars I just swap out those abilities he mentioned and end up pressing mostly the same buttons in the same order in all specs.

Then you are doing it VERY wrong. I mean VEEEEEEEEEEERY wrong - overcapping focus, not using procs, not casting certain spells when you should, delaying CDs, delaying signature shots, etc. etc.

[Ogun Nagoura]

Hunter's are the class that Blizzard first uses to introduce someone to the game. It's an automatic transmission and not a standard that requires you to really be able to get creative whilst leveling. Blizzard will NEVER change that. there is a reason they are called Huntards.

However, when you get to actually start raiding, when your expertise of the class becomes apparent, that's when the class becomes interesting and requires the player to step up their game and use their imagination to outperform the rest.

[Osmin]

Haha how's that Epeen doing Deepfriedegg? I'm not sure where you got any of that. You'll notice the qualifier "mostly", as in the general shape/rhythm/and rules are very similar in all specs. I'll demonstrate.

(Insert signature shot here) on cooldown. Apply Serpent Sting once and maintain with (insert Cobra Shot/Chimera Shot here). Build focus with (insert Cobra Shot/Steady Shot here.) Burn focus with (Insert arcane shot/Aimed Shot here) before it caps. Use all talents/procs/cooldowns on cooldown, usually in place of where an arcane shot would go.

There, I just wrote a guide to every hunter spec. Now, every spec has it's minor differences, true. Your instant spamming during BW for BM, your Black Arrow/3x explosive shots for Survival, and your care to do 2x steady shots in a row occasionally in MM. The openers and the way you use readiness for burst is a bit different for each, some cooldowns you shouldn't use at the same time, others you should, but in essence, 90% of the time, what I just listed will net you very close to your maximum DPS. I'm not saying there isn't more to it, that there aren't some occasional exceptions or tricks to net you some extra dps, but the execution of each spec is very similar when you get to the core of it.

[Meleti]

Then you are doing it VERY wrong. I mean VEEEEEEEEEEERY wrong - overcapping focus, not using procs, not casting certain spells when you should, delaying CDs, delaying signature shots, etc. etc.

What?

All specs use procs (LNL, RSA, FF), all specs have a special 20 focus-generating proc, all specs have a signature shot that needs to be cast when available. They all play pretty similar when it comes to single target, even if CD usage varies (but only by a little) among the specs.

[bekiLL]

Hunter design in a nutshell.

Powershot Moving targets can avoid this damage.

Why fix the bug when you can just update the tooltip.

[Deepfriedegg]

What?

All specs use procs (LNL, RSA, FF), all specs have a special 20 focus-generating proc, all specs have a signature shot that needs to be cast when available. They all play pretty similar when it comes to single target, even if CD usage varies (but only by a little) among the specs.

He said he would be pressing buttons in the same order, just swapping abilities. 20 focus generating proc? What is this? LNL - signature shot proc. FF - using something that otherwise is never used. RSA - what is this? MMM - proc for shot that is otherwise used seldom. Also one spec is refreshing a dot in a way that assures the dot never falls off, the other specs do it so that in burst time it is likely to fall off - BM for sure. SV has two dots and is multi dotting spec.
See what I meant by doing it very wrong if he just switches buttons and press them in the same order?