Strength vs Haste

[Meteoric]

You can get stat weights from Simcraft to figure out what you should be gemming, but honestly the difference either way is just not very large. We're talking about a difference on the order of maybe 50 DPS per gem. So if the players you're comparing yourself to are above you by more than a couple thousand DPS tops, gemming alone is not the explanation.

[Ianus]

explain this if haste is so much better Exemplar

[Gracin]

explain this if haste is so much better Exemplar

He's reforged all to haste(after reforging for hit cap) and as far as his gemming is concerned he is intentionally taking all the socket bonuses including less than amazing ones like the +crit bonuses to helm/chest/feet. For the most part he is following haste over strength, and in his gear is setting at 15.34% tack on 5% attack speed and he is setting damn pretty.

[Reith]

explain this if haste is so much better Exemplar

different kinds of gear combinations yield different results.

[Ianus]

different kinds of gear combinations yield different results.

Thoradyn
should i change something except retarded trinkret? meaning gemming and enchanting?

[Meteoric]

explain this if haste is so much better Exemplar

Haste is not universally better. Depending on your gear and talents, Strength gems might still be preferable; as a general trend, haste becomes more favorable as your gear improves, but this is not a hard-and-fast rule. This is why people like Exemplar always say you should sim your own weights, rather than saying you should gem haste unconditionally.

With the stat weights you named earlier (str 3.13, haste 1.42), you should indeed be gemming strength, because 1 str (3.13 weight) is still better than 2 haste (2.84 weight). But do be aware that the improvement in DPS will probably not be huge because we just are not talking about big differences one way or the other.

[Requital]

explain this if haste is so much better Exemplar

You can't take anything from Exemplar he has been as asset to the Ret community for a very long time, in the last few tiers he has been off. Not everyone is perfect all the time he isn't an exception to the rule either. Top DPS check armories and check gemming/reforging if you find one gemmed pure strength that is parsing top 25 I would love to see it.

Just look at this Armory I can only assume he regems and enchants looking for different results. He is using greater haste glove enchant instead of strength. His reforging is pretty far off as well. Sim for best results but there is no difference at any gear level in Strength vs Haste from a gemming stand point. I've regemmed at least 4 times based on sim results it means nothing and does nothing. It's minmaxing to the extreme.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 07:22 AM ----------

Thoradyn
should i change something except retarded trinkret? meaning gemming and enchanting?

Get 4PC asap that is all you are probably fine everywhere else. You could regem 3 times a week and I'd bet you using the exact said raid group week to week your DPS would only vary due to fight mechanics never the gemming.

[Meteoric]

For what it's worth, I simmed Exemplar's profile, and he has a scaled haste weight of .52. That means haste gems are favorable, but only barely - I've seen wider margins flip back to favoring Strength just from the act of changing gems. If he's gotten a couple upgrades since the last time he simmed his own weights, he quite possibly WAS using the right gems when he placed them, and just hasn't bothered to re-sim recently. But y'know, he's a regular over on the EJ forums; PM and ask him yourself if you're curious.

The correct thing to take away from this example is not "Haste is better, but even Exemplar makes mistakes" (although he does make mistakes, what with being human and all), nor is it "Strength is better and Exemplar is a hypocrite". What you should take away is that haste is sometimes better and you should sim your own weights, which is what Exemplar's own guide says in the first place!

[Riptide]

For what it's worth, I simmed Exemplar's profile, and he has a scaled haste weight of .52. That means haste gems are favorable, but only barely - I've seen wider margins flip back to favoring Strength just from the act of changing gems. If he's gotten a couple upgrades since the last time he simmed his own weights, he quite possibly WAS using the right gems when he placed them, and just hasn't bothered to re-sim recently. But y'know, he's a regular over on the EJ forums; PM and ask him yourself if you're curious.

The correct thing to take away from this example is not "Haste is better, but even Exemplar makes mistakes" (although he does make mistakes, what with being human and all), nor is it "Strength is better and Exemplar is a hypocrite". What you should take away is that haste is sometimes better and you should sim your own weights, which is what Exemplar's own guide says in the first place!

That's great I've been simming crit > mastery by at least .10 for a while now and tried it. My dummy dps didn't agree with it.

[Meteoric]

For what it's worth, your dummy DPS is not what you're simming, unless you dug through the settings and disabled flasks, Bloodlust, potions, and any buff or debuff you don't provide yourself. And if you're talking Ret, weighting crit > mastery or mastery > crit will be a very small difference in DPS since we don't gem for either and they're pretty close together in value, much smaller than simple RNG differences unless you have a very large sample size.

But once you account for all those factors, if you're still getting results different than what Simcraft says - then Simcraft is wrong! Obviously. It's just a tool, not gospel. Actual results always trump sims. Evidence trumps theory. Facts trump estimates. Simcraft is about the best tool we have for figuring things out without having to test everything by hand, but if you're skeptical of a Simcraft result, go test it by hand and find out.

[Riptide]

For what it's worth, your dummy DPS is not what you're simming, unless you dug through the settings and disabled flasks, Bloodlust, potions, and any buff or debuff you don't provide yourself. And if you're talking Ret, weighting crit > mastery or mastery > crit will be a very small difference in DPS since we don't gem for either and they're pretty close together in value, much smaller than simple RNG differences unless you have a very large sample size.

But once you account for all those factors, if you're still getting results different than what Simcraft says - then Simcraft is wrong! Obviously. It's just a tool, not gospel. Actual results always trump sims. Evidence trumps theory. Facts trump estimates. Simcraft is about the best tool we have for figuring things out without having to test everything by hand, but if you're skeptical of a Simcraft result, go test it by hand and find out.

I know how to use simcraft. I also did raid with crit and was either playing poorly, rng'd or simcraft was wrong. The difference isn't much more than haste vs streg for most. But I mean it's okay you think that's a valid topic while crit vs mastery isn't. I also don't simcraft anything but light movement, because anything else is unrealistic. It's okay though,I'd bet it sims every ret that is 495+ with crit > mastery. Doesn't matter though because nobody does it.

[Meteoric]

I know how to use simcraft. I also did raid with crit and was either playing poorly, rng'd or simcraft was wrong. The difference isn't much more than haste vs streg for most.

It is significantly smaller than the gap for haste vs strength, at least for most profiles I've simmed. TBH, if your DPS worsened (or improved!) enough to notice I would be inclined to say that can't be just because of reforging crit > mastery. Trading a few hundred crit for a few hundred mastery just isn't going to change your DPS by much. It's small enough to easily be lost in the noise of RNG, fight mechanics, and execution.
But still, you may be right. As I said, evidence trumps theory. Gotta account for all the variables to figure out what the evidence actually says, but evidence trumps theory.

IMX, Simcraft is generally pretty reliable. Not perfect (that's why they keep releasing updated versions, after all), but better than just guessing, and much easier than trying every possibility by hand. But yes, still, it is just a tool. If Simcraft tells you to do something, but that isn't working, don't do it. This doesn't mean you should disregard everything Simcraft says; it just means that you should recognize that it is only a third-party tool intended to help figure things out. It can't and isn't supposed to replace your brain.

[Riptide]

It is significantly smaller than the gap for haste vs strength, at least for most profiles I've simmed. TBH, if your DPS worsened (or improved!) enough to notice I would be inclined to say that can't be just because of reforging crit > mastery. Trading a few hundred crit for a few hundred mastery just isn't going to change your DPS by much. It's small enough to easily be lost in the noise of RNG, fight mechanics, and execution.
But still, you may be right. As I said, evidence trumps theory. Gotta account for all the variables to figure out what the evidence actually says, but evidence trumps theory.

IMX, Simcraft is generally pretty reliable. Not perfect (that's why they keep releasing updated versions, after all), but better than just guessing, and much easier than trying every possibility by hand. But yes, still, it is just a tool. If Simcraft tells you to do something, but that isn't working, don't do it. This doesn't mean you should disregard everything Simcraft says; it just means that you should recognize that it is only a third-party tool intended to help figure things out. It can't and isn't supposed to replace your brain.

I get what you're saying I really do. But you're saying a similar difference between streg and haste (for me) to mastery and crit isn't enough to question reliability because I don't stack enough for the difference to matter, yet everyone assumes haste>mastery>crit. Also we're talking about 1100 or so rating without gemming.

I keep my haste/streg weights slightly under/over 2/1 by purposely gemming strength in some slots but not all. Which means there's always a bigger difference between crit/mastery.

50k iterations, skill = good, fight length=400 (20% vary) Full buffs/debuffs and lightmovement.

[Meteoric]

I keep my haste/streg weights slightly under/over 2/1 by purposely gemming strength in some slots but not all. Which means there's always a bigger difference between crit/mastery.

Oh, I see. I was speaking generally - most profiles that I've simmed have a significantly larger gap between str and haste than between crit and mastery. If you're right on the border for str vs haste though, yeah, the gap between crit and mastery may be larger. (Note that it's not a very large gap you're looking at there: the chart is saying that one point of crit is worth only .12 DPS more than a point of mastery. But in this case the gap between 2 haste and 1 strength is even smaller.)

Trading 1100 crit for 1100 mastery, or vice versa, would be a change on the order of 200 DPS. That's more than zero, but small enough that it's very difficult to detect in practice with all the other "noise" that can affect your DPS from run to run. If you changed that via reforging and noticed your DPS drop afterward by more than a fraction of a percent, it was almost definitely caused by something other than the reforging. (Same if you had seen a significant increase, for that matter.)

[Liquidevil]

I also noticed drop in haste value in simcraft after upgrading my gear from 488-491, going from 8800ish haste to 9100
It dropped from being 0.57 to 0.43 to 1 str. I dont know if 9000 is our break point where str gaing again or simcraft is doing something wrong...

[Riptide]

I also noticed drop in haste value in simcraft after upgrading my gear from 488-491, going from 8800ish haste to 9100
It dropped from being 0.57 to 0.43 to 1 str. I dont know if 9000 is our break point where str gaing again or simcraft is doing something wrong...

It seems to keep me around 9700 haste atm. I noticed a drop as well but then replaced a non haste piece with a haste piece. Then it jumped in value again to something like 1.92 haste v 3.22 streg but that difference diminished quickly. Now I just try to keep it as close to 2-1 as a I can. If I gain or lose a haste piece I try gemming pure haste/streg until I get that balance back.