Obliterate Waiting

[Harpocrates]

i'm wearing a safari hat on my armory but there is a 13% haste difference between us so that could be the case, everything is forged to haste too. and it's off spec for me but like i said the rotation doesn't feel normal.
i play a lock too and not once can I not press an ability. we get regen from spec, not talents. we dont have to waste a non damage ability gcd every few secs just to get a small amount of resource back. I just dont like it, and im talking as frost cause blood spec is fine for me

[Deleted]

I never wait for Obliterate runes when I have KM procced.

Ever. (Unless it's less than my reaction time)

No no, read again -


Lets say i have 2 runes available, the rest are regenerating and i have 16 RP (frost 2h), and KM has not procced. Swing timer has 3.5 seconds left.

- YOU, in this situation would wait 3.5 seconds for your swing timer and gain 1 x possible obliterate crit.
- I, in this situation would use obliterate and gain RP for 2 x frost strikes



1 x obliterate + 2 x frost strikes (with RE proc chance) surely is more dps than waiting for 1 x obliterate (with possible crit?)


My point is, by waiting, you are losing resource gain.

[Dossou]

No no, read again -


Lets say i have 2 runes available, the rest are regenerating and i have 16 RP (frost 2h), and KM has not procced. Swing timer has 3.5 seconds left.

- YOU, in this situation would wait 3.5 seconds for your swing timer and gain 1 x possible obliterate crit.
- I, in this situation would use obliterate and gain RP for 2 x frost strikes



1 x obliterate + 2 x frost strikes (with RE proc chance) surely is more dps than waiting for 1 x obliterate (with possible crit?)


My point is, by waiting, you are losing resource gain.

Your swing timer will never be as high as 3.5 seconds, it's dropped to around 2.5 just from passive talents.

More on point, waiting more than 2 globals is excessive.

[Deleted]

Your swing timer will never be as high as 3.5 seconds, it's dropped to around 2.5 just from passive talents.

More on point, waiting more than 2 globals is excessive.

So it seems to be, wait for swing timer, but only if you are waiting for less than say 1 second.

I would say, if this is correct, and you add in the human error and lag factor, it really isnt a gain at all to wait that 1 extra second. You not only have to keep close attention to your swing timer ever 2.5 seconds or so, but you have to pay close attention that after that 1 second of wait, some of your runes will not come off CD and your RP wont get capped.

I really dont think anybody could keep this up perfectly over the course of a 5-10 minute fight, for 5+ hours of raiding, 3-5 days per week.

IF you dont do it perfectly, youve created a potential dps loss scenario.


My personal conclusion is that it is not worth doing, at all. Rather, use my oblits and frost strikes when they are ready, (prioritising KM procs for oblits ofc if i have the runes) knowing that i am potentially losing 0.5% dps (which rng and lag could easily counteract) than playing perfectly looking at a swing timer (which isnt sustainable by any human imho).

[Dossou]

So it seems to be, wait for swing timer, but only if you are waiting for less than say 1 second.

I would say, if this is correct, and you add in the human error and lag factor, it really isnt a gain at all to wait that 1 extra second. You not only have to keep close attention to your swing timer ever 2.5 seconds or so, but you have to pay close attention that after that 1 second of wait, some of your runes will not come off CD and your RP wont get capped.

I really dont think anybody could keep this up perfectly over the course of a 5-10 minute fight, for 5+ hours of raiding, 3-5 days per week.

IF you dont do it perfectly, youve created a potential dps loss scenario.


My personal conclusion is that it is not worth doing, at all. Rather, use my oblits and frost strikes when they are ready, (prioritising KM procs for oblits ofc if i have the runes) knowing that i am potentially losing 0.5% dps (which rng and lag could easily counteract) than playing perfectly looking at a swing timer (which isnt sustainable by any human imho).

Watching a swing timer isn't that hard to be honest

I'd just something you get used to after a while.

[Deleted]

Watching a swing timer isn't that hard to be honest

I'd just something you get used to after a while.

I dont believe any human can sustain perfectly -

- watching swing timer
- calculating when 1 second is left
- waiting for oblit, but only if your runes and RP are not going to get capped after 2-3 seconds
- adjust for isp lag and/or server lag


...for hours on end.


If you don't perform perfectly EVERY single swing timer, you are setting yourself up for dps loss and negating previous perfect tries.


Heck, your isp lag fluctation alone screw you up, as will any server lag, let alone the 2 combined.


I agree with your theory, but doubt i will ever agree that it will be beneficial in practice.

[Deleted]

No no, read again -


Lets say i have 2 runes available, the rest are regenerating and i have 16 RP (frost 2h), and KM has not procced. Swing timer has 3.5 seconds left.

- YOU, in this situation would wait 3.5 seconds for your swing timer and gain 1 x possible obliterate crit.
- I, in this situation would use obliterate and gain RP for 2 x frost strikes



1 x obliterate + 2 x frost strikes (with RE proc chance) surely is more dps than waiting for 1 x obliterate (with possible crit?)


My point is, by waiting, you are losing resource gain.

In that situation you're losing nothing from waiting, as long as you're not potentially overwriting your KM proc then, in reality you're merely slowing your attacks down for 1-2 seconds to catch up once you do/don't get the KM proc. Unless you never have any downtime whatsoever and are sitting on near 10k haste I still believe waiting a short time for the KM OB would be beneficial and probably even more so if you're gemmed for str.

2. Runic Empowerment is used for end-game play. Blood Tap is a 40% Rune return, Runic Empowerment is an average of 45% return.

Really depends on your definition of "end game play". RE has the capability to do more damage, just like reforging for haste>mastery as unholy (rather than haste>crit) did at the end of cata when you had gurthalak... Unfortunately if by end-game you mean progression raiding then you're just as likely to gimp your dps using RE due to the nature of RNG. If you're looking to get a top rank on a fight then, OFC RE is the way to go because eventually RNG will be kind. Progression-wise BT has the edge as you know when and where your runes are coming from and can spend blood charges at apt times during fights, not to mention the boost BT brings during the execute phase with ample death runes for SR.

[Pieterman]

Just always have one Obliterate ready to launch. You don't lose DPS as long as you don't have both runes off CD.

[Deleted]

In that situation you're losing nothing from waiting, as long as you're not potentially overwriting your KM proc then, in reality you're merely slowing your attacks down for 1-2 seconds to catch up once you do/don't get the KM proc. Unless you never have any downtime whatsoever and are sitting on near 10k haste I still believe waiting a short time for the KM OB would be beneficial and probably even more so if you're gemmed for str.

You gain less resource than someone who doesnt wait.

In this case, by waiting, you lose time on gaining a potential RE proc (which might build up to say 5 potential RE procs over the course of the fight), and you take longer to gain the 26 RP that this situation would bring because you would be using obliterate on swing number 2, instead of swing number 1 (which over the course of the fight might amalgamate to say putting you behing by 10 swings, giving you 260 RP gain LESS than someone who doesnt wait).

Thats what you are losing, or more specifically, not gaining over somebody who doesnt wait.


As i said before, you need to weigh up the potential obliterate crits gained, versus the potential RE proc losses + lesser RP gain.

[Dossou]

In that situation you're losing nothing from waiting, as long as you're not potentially overwriting your KM proc then, in reality you're merely slowing your attacks down for 1-2 seconds to catch up once you do/don't get the KM proc. Unless you never have any downtime whatsoever and are sitting on near 10k haste I still believe waiting a short time for the KM OB would be beneficial and probably even more so if you're gemmed for str.

Really depends on your definition of "end game play". RE has the capability to do more damage, just like reforging for haste>mastery as unholy (rather than haste>crit) did at the end of cata when you had gurthalak... Unfortunately if by end-game you mean progression raiding then you're just as likely to gimp your dps using RE due to the nature of RNG. If you're looking to get a top rank on a fight then, OFC RE is the way to go because eventually RNG will be kind. Progression-wise BT has the edge as you know when and where your runes are coming from and can spend blood charges at apt times during fights, not to mention the boost BT brings during the execute phase with ample death runes for SR.

My definition of end-game play is end-game play. I killed Heroic Sha 2 weeks ago. That's end game play.

Runic Empowerment 45% Rune Regen
Blood Tap 40% Rune Regen

Any fight where you get 20 or more Frost Strikes, Runic Empowerment RNG evens out ahead of Blood Tap.

I don't think I'm "gimping" my DPS by using the superior talent.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 02:27 PM ----------

You gain less resource than someone who doesnt wait.

In this case, by waiting, you lose time on gaining a potential RE proc (which might build up to say 5 potential RE procs over the course of the fight), and you take longer to gain the 26 RP that this situation would bring because you would be using obliterate on swing number 2, instead of swing number 1 (which over the course of the fight might amalgamate to say putting you behing by 10 swings, giving you 260 RP gain LESS than someone who doesnt wait).

Thats what you are losing, or more specifically, not gaining over somebody who doesnt wait.


As i said before, you need to weigh up the potential obliterate crits gained, versus the potential RE proc losses + lesser RP gain.

Yeah I see your point. Gonna talk to Mendenbarr about it cause he's on my server but I think he's for waiting.
Thanks for bringing that point up hadn't thought about it.

My thinking is that if the damage difference between a crit and a non-crit Obliterate outweighs a (45%x2) value of a Rune, then waiting is better. If you Obliterate without waiting, you have a total of a 90% chance to proc an extra rune. Assuming this 90% rune is used on Obliterate, it is worth 45% of an Obliterate.
The crit modifier for all DK abilities is 200%, and the Killing Machine proc chance is (just going to use my haste here, at 6 PPM) ~27%.
This means the value of waiting for an Obliterate is worth about 52% of an Obliterate, or 104% of a rune.

Using Obliterate without waiting, using 2 Frost Strikes - 45% of a Rune + 2x Frost Strike Damage
Using Obliterate while waiting, using 0 Frost Strikes - 104% of a Rune

Now, this is all just napkin math and I've probably mucked up somewhere, but I think the basic idea is there.

[Deleted]

You gain less resource than someone who doesnt wait.

In this case, by waiting, you lose time on gaining a potential RE proc (which might build up to say 5 potential RE procs over the course of the fight), and you take longer to gain the 26 RP that this situation would bring because you would be using obliterate on swing number 2, instead of swing number 1 (which over the course of the fight might amalgamate to say putting you behing by 10 swings, giving you 260 RP gain LESS than someone who doesnt wait).

Thats what you are losing, or more specifically, not gaining over somebody who doesnt wait.


As i said before, you need to weigh up the potential obliterate crits gained, versus the potential RE proc losses + lesser RP gain.

IMO you're not losing anything though, that's what I'm saying (though I'm starting to doubt myself here!)... You are gaining less resources at that moment in time but, over the course of the fight the resource gains would be the same due to the fact that we don't have 100% uptime, there will always be a point (at least in this tier) where we have waiting time. That potential RE proc would simply have the same chance of occurring a second or so later when the FS is performed. Your scenario would be true if we could use an ability on every GCD for the entirety of an encounter but, right now we can't (and if you can then you have too much haste :-P)

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 02:37 PM ----------

My definition of end-game play is end-game play. I killed Heroic Sha 2 weeks ago. That's end game play.

Runic Empowerment 45% Rune Regen
Blood Tap 40% Rune Regen

I don't think I'm "gimping" my DPS by using the superior talent

Will simply agree to disagree, grats on the hc sha kill :-P

[Atrea]

From what I can see, I see people with demonstrable experience and solid numbers and proof saying that you don't wait for Obliterate to use your KM procs, and then a bunch of people whose proof is "but you can't trust sims!"

Schizode, Nye and Vmagik are correct, and anyone who is disagreeing simply doesn't understand the point.

[Dossou]

From what I can see, I see people with demonstrable experience and solid numbers and proof saying that you don't wait for Obliterate to use your KM procs, and then a bunch of people whose proof is "but you can't trust sims!"

Schizode, Nye and Vmagik are correct, and anyone who is disagreeing simply doesn't understand the point.

I asked Schizode to link the priority from Simcraft he used and he deflected. I also see people saying "It's a small increase but not worth the effort".

So it's an increase.

[Nyanmaru]

So it's an increase.

Yes, that's pretty much undisputed. Though, the risk/reward thing is what is mostly disputed and due to human error you won't see a benefit most of the time.

[Atrea]

You're neglecting the remainder of their statements, though.

In a perfect world, it is a negligible increase, but in practice, its benefit is not only effectively lost due to human error, input lag, and possible encounter mechanics, it actually ends up being a hindrance.

Remember, even under perfect circumstances, it is an increase of 0.4%.
It is like being 0.04% under hit or expertise cap - a practice that many find acceptable, due to the astronomically small chance of it actually affecting your output.

And again, as good as you think you are, you do not perform perfectly in all situations - so that 0.4% is effectively lost, and quite possibly ends up even worse off for you.

[Schizoide]

Sorry, I linked the sims several times, but that may have been in other threads here. I assumed you saw them too. They were all in the past week. Anyway, you're correct that prioritizing KM is a DPS increase, but it's a very small one (0.4%), and like others have said, that's only with perfect execution. You say you can do that and still not stand in the fire on bosses? That's cool. You're clearly a much better player than I am. I know that realistically I can't, and certainly most players can't, and that's why it's not good advice to give out.

[Deleted]

Yes, that's pretty much undisputed. Though, the risk/reward thing is what is mostly disputed and due to human error you won't see a benefit most of the time.

Imo it's not undisputed until someone can prove with maths that the RP gain throught the duration of the entire fight is identical whether you wait or not wait.

In my mindset, if you look at autoattacks as dps slot chunks you could somewhat say this (as a random thing based on random km procs) -

Swing timer 1 - Wait
Swing timer 2 - obliterate
Swing timer 3 - Wait
Swing timer 4 - Obliterate, Obliterate
Swiung timer 5 - Wait

RP gain in 5 swings = 78 RP (for example).


Swing timer 1 - obliterate
Swing timer 2 - obliterate
Swing timer 3 - No Runes
Swing timer 4 - Obliterate
Swing timer 5 - Obliterate

RP gain in 5 swings = 104 RP (for example).



AND the thing about RP gain is that it increases the uptime of Runic Empowerment. So the LESS you wait, the more resource regen you get throughout the entirety of the fight, both runes AND RP.


Until someone can explain this with solid maths, it is not undesputed at all.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 05:20 PM ----------

My definition of end-game play is end-game play. I killed Heroic Sha 2 weeks ago. That's end game play.

Runic Empowerment 45% Rune Regen
Blood Tap 40% Rune Regen

Any fight where you get 20 or more Frost Strikes, Runic Empowerment RNG evens out ahead of Blood Tap.

I don't think I'm "gimping" my DPS by using the superior talent.[COLOR="red"]

Also, ill add a note about this.

Runic Empowerment might yield more dps when you take into account perfect proc situations, but think about this....


It is impossible to waste a blood tap. If you do not have runes on cd, the game mechanic of blood tap will not let you use it.

Now, if you find yourself ever on full runes, i am not sure if the game allows RE to proc. If it does, then that RE proc is wasted.


Another point about it -

Because BT empowers a rune to full charge, where you have situations where you are switching between mobs, you can never waste a % of that rune, because it is "full charge with proc" and "full discharge with use" on a mob per mob basis.

When RE procs and you target switch, if you frost strike, RE procs, then the mob dies, and you have to wait a few seconds for the next mobs you, the RE proc becomes wasted because you havnt actually received any benefit from it.


Basically BT ensures 0 waste of the proc, whereas there are a couple of situations with RE where the proc will be wasted.

[Deleted]

Stop deleting my posts ffs, stupid mods because you dont have the intellectual capacity to comprehend the points i am making. Sick and tired of the mod abuse here.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 05:23 PM ----------

Yes, that's pretty much undisputed. Though, the risk/reward thing is what is mostly disputed and due to human error you won't see a benefit most of the time.

Imo it's not undisputed until someone can prove with maths that the RP gain throught the duration of the entire fight is identical whether you wait or not wait.

In my mindset, if you look at autoattacks as dps slot chunks you could somewhat say this (as a random thins based on random km procs) -

Swing timer 1 - Wait
Swing timer 2 - obliterate
Swing timer 3 - Wait
Swing timer 4 - Obliterate, Obliterate
Swiung timer 5 - Wait

RP gain in 5 swings = 78 RP (for example).


Swing timer 1 - obliterate
Swing timer 2 - obliterate
Swing timer 3 - No Runes
Swing timer 4 - Obliterate
Swing timer 5 - Obliterate

RP gain in 5 swings = 104 RP (for example).



AND the thing about RP gain is that it increases the uptime of Runic Empowerment. So the LESS you wait, the more resource regen you get throughout the entirety of the fight, both runes AND RP.


Until someone can explain this with solid maths, it is not undesputed at all.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 05:27 PM ----------

My definition of end-game play is end-game play. I killed Heroic Sha 2 weeks ago. That's end game play.

Runic Empowerment 45% Rune Regen
Blood Tap 40% Rune Regen

Any fight where you get 20 or more Frost Strikes, Runic Empowerment RNG evens out ahead of Blood Tap.

I don't think I'm "gimping" my DPS by using the superior talent.[COLOR="red"]

Maths here is not as simple as you think.

It is impossible to waste a blood tap proc -

1) The game engine does not allow blood tap to be used unless you have a fully depleted rune. Im not sure RE works in this way (maybe someone can test).
2) If you kill a target switched mob, and then have to wait a few seconds for your next target, it is possible RE procs get completely wasted. (frost strike near the death of a mob, RE proc happens, but your runes would have already been recharged for the next mob regardless).

In point number 2, BT can never be wasted because you will have used the rune to finish the mob off.

[Deleted]

Stop deleting my posts ffs, stupid mods because you dont have the intellectual capacity to comprehend the points i am making. Sick and tired of the mod abuse here.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 05:23 PM ----------

Yes, that's pretty much undisputed. Though, the risk/reward thing is what is mostly disputed and due to human error you won't see a benefit most of the time.

Imo it's not undisputed until someone can prove with maths that the RP gain throught the duration of the entire fight is identical whether you wait or not wait.

In my mindset, if you look at autoattacks as dps slot chunks you could somewhat say this (as a random thins based on random km procs) -

Swing timer 1 - Wait
Swing timer 2 - obliterate
Swing timer 3 - Wait
Swing timer 4 - Obliterate, Obliterate
Swiung timer 5 - Wait

RP gain in 5 swings = 78 RP (for example).


Swing timer 1 - obliterate
Swing timer 2 - obliterate
Swing timer 3 - No Runes
Swing timer 4 - Obliterate
Swing timer 5 - Obliterate

RP gain in 5 swings = 104 RP (for example).



AND the thing about RP gain is that it increases the uptime of Runic Empowerment. So the LESS you wait, the more resource regen you get throughout the entirety of the fight, both runes AND RP.


Until someone can explain this with solid maths, it is not undesputed at all.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 05:27 PM ----------

My definition of end-game play is end-game play. I killed Heroic Sha 2 weeks ago. That's end game play.

Runic Empowerment 45% Rune Regen
Blood Tap 40% Rune Regen

Any fight where you get 20 or more Frost Strikes, Runic Empowerment RNG evens out ahead of Blood Tap.

I don't think I'm "gimping" my DPS by using the superior talent.[COLOR="red"]

Maths here is not as simple as you think.

It is impossible to waste a blood tap proc, whereas RE can be a wasted proc -

1) The game engine does not allow blood tap to be used unless you have a fully depleted rune. Im not sure RE works in this way (maybe someone can test).
2) If you kill a target switched mob, and then have to wait a few seconds for your next target, it is possible RE procs get completely wasted. (frost strike near the death of a mob, RE proc happens, but your runes would have already been recharged for the next mob regardless).

In point number 2, BT can never be wasted because you will have used the rune to finish the mob off.


Basically BT is better for target switching where mobs die quick, and RE is better for Patchwerk style encounters.

[Deleted]

Stop deleting my posts ffs, stupid mods because you dont have the intellectual capacity to comprehend the points i am making. Sick and tired of the mod abuse here.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 05:23 PM ----------

Yes, that's pretty much undisputed. Though, the risk/reward thing is what is mostly disputed and due to human error you won't see a benefit most of the time.

Imo it's not undisputed until someone can prove with maths that the RP gain throught the duration of the entire fight is identical whether you wait or not wait.

In my mindset, if you look at autoattacks as dps slot chunks you could somewhat say this (as a random thins based on random km procs) -

Swing timer 1 - Wait
Swing timer 2 - obliterate
Swing timer 3 - Wait
Swing timer 4 - Obliterate, Obliterate
Swiung timer 5 - Wait

RP gain in 5 swings = 78 RP (for example).


Swing timer 1 - obliterate
Swing timer 2 - obliterate
Swing timer 3 - No Runes
Swing timer 4 - Obliterate
Swing timer 5 - Obliterate

RP gain in 5 swings = 104 RP (for example).



AND the thing about RP gain is that it increases the uptime of Runic Empowerment. So the LESS you wait, the more resource regen you get throughout the entirety of the fight, both runes AND RP.


Until someone can explain this with solid maths, it is not undesputed at all.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 05:27 PM ----------

My definition of end-game play is end-game play. I killed Heroic Sha 2 weeks ago. That's end game play.

Runic Empowerment 45% Rune Regen
Blood Tap 40% Rune Regen

Any fight where you get 20 or more Frost Strikes, Runic Empowerment RNG evens out ahead of Blood Tap.

I don't think I'm "gimping" my DPS by using the superior talent.[COLOR="red"]

Maths here is not as simple as you think.

It is impossible to waste a blood tap proc, whereas RE can be a wasted proc -

1) The game engine does not allow blood tap to be used unless you have a fully depleted rune. Im not sure RE works in this way (maybe someone can test).
2) If you kill a target switched mob, and then have to wait a few seconds for your next target, it is possible RE procs get completely wasted. (frost strike near the death of a mob, RE proc happens, but your runes would have already been recharged for the next mob regardless).

In point number 2, BT can never be wasted because you will have used the rune to finish the mob off.


Basically BT is better for target switching where mobs die quick, and RE is better for Patchwerk style encounters.