Warriors have too much...

[sbernett]

Before anyone reads this, please understand this: I play a hunter, Tardczar, very competitively in arena. I am a seasoned arena player. I have been past 2500 many different times, including on a disc priest. I am regularly in the top 1% of arena teams at the end of each season I play. This is not a rant about my class. I feel that hunters are probably a bit on the OP side to be completely honest. My team and I are having a lot of success and positive advancement in 3v3 this season. As you might have guessed, this is a pvp related post.

What I am hear to talk about is warriors. AND NO...its not about their burst. Sure, they have really high burst, but every class has very high burst this season, even enhance shaman finally have really nice burst. Warrior mobility is great; it is nice to finally see warriors not be kited everywhere all the time.

The problem is their control along with their ability to survive. They essentially have deterrence, (die by the sword) but the difference from a hunter is that warriors can do full damage while parrying everything (oh, and they get 20% damage reduction for 8 seconds on top of that). Then they have shield wall, which gives them 40% damage reduction for 12 seconds. These are two of the best take no damage/damage reduction abilities in the game when you consider the total damage reduction, duration of the effects, what you can still do when you have these defensive abilities up, and cooldown times. You may argue: “What about pally bubble?” or “What about hand of protection?” If a pally bubbles, his damage goes away. If a pally uses hand of protection on someone, that target's damage goes away, except for casters of course. And besides all that, at high level play hand of protection lasts about 2 seconds on a target and then gets dispelled. The issue here is that giving someone 40% damage reduction for 12 seconds AND giving them 100% parry chance right after that makes them almost un-killable in arena. Killing a warrior in arena isn't even an option anymore along with their ability to peal for themselves infinitely better than any other class in the game; just as good as mages if you ask me.

So the next argument someone might make is: “Well, why can't you just make him burn all of those cds and then try to kill him again?” Because of their control. They stun lock better than rogues did (I say “did” because rogues are kind of behind at the moment and you don't see them often). Many warriors are at high levels are starting to take war bringer, which makes their charge stun last 3 seconds. They sacrifice very little mobility for this. This does not share DR with shock-wave. Even if you get close to killing a warrior without his two major defensive cds, they just stun-lock one of your dps, they disarm you so your damage completely stops, they fear (only fear in the game that cannot be dispelled, only tremored), or they leap away and/or safeguard to a teammate on the other side of the map. They can stop damage almost at any moment that they need to. These stuns and over all amazing control also lead to warriors being able to kill almost anything, all while their target cant react. I can't even count the times that I have been stun locked by a warrior from roughly 80% to dead. Like I said, I don't mind the damage, that isn't the issue. It's the fact that I can't react unless I trinket to deterrence, use beastial wrath to get out of stuns and deterrence, or just wait until its over before I can do anything and hope my healer is okay to heal bomb me to full. Shock-wave is on a 20 sec cd that only DRs with itself, is an aoe stun, and lasts for four seconds, an eternity in pvp. (don't forget the damage it does too) They also have charge stun, which like I said before, war bringer is becoming more popular for charge, and that is a 3 sec stun on a 25 sec cd. They have these major abilities available WAY too often. Trying and play around those abilities along with their defensive cooldowns is nearly impossible. They are able to a hard counter almost anything.

Here is the break-down:

-2 AMAZING defensive cds in “die by the sword” and “shield wall”, both one-button saves which don't require any thing special to use. Also second wind? WHAT? Permanent 3% of total health per second regeneration when below 35% total health? How necessary...

-Two incredibly reliable stuns, in “shock-wave” and “war bringer charge”. (even though shock-wave has to be aimed, it is not even slightly challenging to use). Both of these have an insanely short cds for what they are and are up almost anytime a peal or pressure is needed. They do not share DR with each other.

-Two interrupts: pummel and disrupting shout. Why? I have no idea why they need/have two of them. If I fake cast on my priest or shaman healers, I have to then try to fake again. If they both work, I get shock-waved. If I use either of those class's abilities to become uninturruptable, I will get stunned somehow. No class should be able to completely shut-down anything that has to cast.


Okay, so let me ask a question now: Why play any other melee dps class in arena? Warriors do everything that feral druids do, they do everything that rogues do, they do everything that enhance shaman do, they do everything that ret pallies do, and they do everything that DKs do. Warriors also do everything TWICE! (two amazing defensive cds, two amazing stuns that don't share DR, two interrupts) Here is another break-down:

-Warrior compared to feral druid: warrior has slightly better burst, same mobility, better ability to lock-down a target, probably a little less cc (instant cyclone is hard to beat) WAY better survivability and infinitely better peals. Warrior > feral druid

-Warrior compared to Rogue: warrior has slightly better burst, warrior has slightly better mobility, at this point they lock down a target better than a rogue, they have less cc than a rogue, WAY better survivability than a rogue, and are a little better at pealing than a rogue. Warrior > Rogue

-Warrior compared to enhance shaman: warrior has better burst, much better mobility, WAY better at locking down targets, more cc than an enhance shaman, WAY better survivability and WAY better at pealing. They even have a grounding totem equivalent! (spell reflect = grounding totem) Warrior > enhance shaman

-Warrior compared to Ret pallies: warrior has higher burst, mobility is about even, warriors are better at locking a target down, warriors have better cc than ret pallies, even with bubble warriors are better at surviving than rets, and warriors peal WAY better than rets. Warrior > ret pallies

-Warrior compared to DKs: Warriors have more burst, have better mobility, are WAY better at locking targets down, warriors have more cc than dks, warriors have better survivability, and they have comparable peals with DKs. Warriors > DKs

For all the monk players reading this, monks need some work still. So the quick and dirty is Warriors > monks.


Now take a look at the top compositions in 3v3 arena this season. 90% of them include a warrior, reflecting my exact statement above. Why bring anything else? If you want to see better representation of other classes in arena and you want a more diverse set of classes and comps, you need to not just buff other classes...you need to bring warriors down a little bit so people don't feel that they HAVE to have a certain class on their team to win. If you want to fix pvp, the trick isn't to adjust resilience or pvp power only, it is to make other classes more appealing due to the fact that the OP classes are dealt with properly.

Now I am not saying you should make warriors unplayable like they were last season, but you need to tone something down. Like I mentioned able, warriors are never kill targets anymore because they simply do not die with their current kit. Why do they need two amazing survivability coldowns? You could make them share a cooldown, create a debuff like forbarence for pallies, or make people choose one in the talent system. Those are just a couple of ideas.

Why do they need two stuns that do not share DR with each other on such short cooldowns? You could put them on the same DR, increase their cooldowns slightly, limit the amount of targets that can be stunned by shock-wave, reduce the damage that shock-wave does so people don't just spam it for damage. Some sort of skill should be incorporated with these. Make the warrior play around his own DR system.

Why do they need two lock out abilities? You combine that with the current state of their stuns that they can stop almost any caster from doing anything for an incredibly long time. Why do you think elemental shamans are nowhere to be found this season at high rating? Because even 1400 mmr warriors can prevent them from doing anything with all of the utility warriors have right now. There is nothing wrong with counters to other classes. But if everyone is a warrior, then what are the classes that get hard countered by warriors supposed to do? Reroll? That's not very fair.

Right about now, I would assume readers are thinking that I feel that warriors should be destroyed as a class. Wrong. I feel that warriors just need become ONLY viable again and not a must have class to do well as a team in arena. They have too much in their kit. I realize this is the beginning of an expansion and it's harder to iron out kinks, but seriously guys. This stuff isn't that hard to realize. I am sure there are some incredibly intelligent people working for WoW pvp development team at blizzard. For whatever reason, they gave warriors everything they could possibly need for pvp.

Okay, how about a short re-cap? Warrior damage and mobility is fine; virtually nothing wrong with it. You add all the control and and survivability to them and they become insane to deal with. There is a very good reason 90% of high rated teams have warriors on them. Just one example of that stat: Look at the arena ranking pages on the armory. Scroll down to the bottom of top teams in each bracket per BG page as see for yourself. All the top 10 comps except for 1 have a warrior on them. That isn't diverse at all. Blizzard said they wanted to have more choices for player this expansion. As of right now, most all teams have warriors. If you want to see more rogues, if you want to see more boomkins, if you want to see more ele shamans, if you want to see more healing-speced priests, if you want to see more monks, if you want to see more diversity in general, tone down warriors a bit. Don't make them unplayable, just get them to a comfortable level. It will help a lot.

Thank you for all that read this post. I appreciate your time.

[Noctus78]

First of all, nice written post about your opinion on warriors.
Im sure some veterans will counter each argument, im however no pvp'er so my comments may be wrong.

just 2 things i picked out for facts

-2 AMAZING defensive cds in “die by the sword” and “shield wall”, both one-button saves which don't require any thing special to use. Also second wind? WHAT? Permanent 3% of total health per second regeneration when below 35% total health? How necessary...

Shieldwall does require a shield - reducing the dmg a warrior does drastically. you made it look like its just a 40% dmg reduction button
Second Wind - also stops when we are back at 35%. just apply more then ~10k dps to outdps the heal. (i made that sound easier then it is).

Look at the arena ranking pages on the armory. Scroll down to the bottom of top teams in each bracket per BG page as see for yourself. All the top 10 comps except for 1 have a warrior on them. That isn't diverse at all. Blizzard said they wanted to have more choices for player this expansion. As of right now, most all teams have warriors.

Thou shall not use this as an arguement.
Remember cataclysm, there was only 1 warrior in the top brackets at some point. overall it was the very very very least represented class above 2200.
When this was used as arguments, warriors were told off (putting it very nicely)

[Darsithis]

I gotta say...

...I run in a 3's and 2's group with a DK (me), mage, arms warrior, and resto shaman (we trade off). We hate hunters. Depending on how good they are, they've been able to lock and kill us in a few GCD's. I'd say we have a 50/50 against them.

Warriors don't have too much at all, and some of the CD's you listed only apply if wearing a shield. I think they're in a fine place. Not too overpowered...we've taken them down just fine (and been killed by them), but not too underpowered (as we have taken down and been taken down by other classes).

[Phishy714]

GUYS. I'm 100% 2500 Rated, I PROMISE.

THIS IS NOT A RANT.

**12 paragraphs later**

In short, warriors are difficult to deal with as huntard.

[sbernett]

For all the people that read this and say "OMFG A HUNTER COMPLAINING ABOUT WARRIORS?!" This thread was not intended to be a comparison about hunters and warriors. I destroy warriors on my hunter. I have no issues with them on a hunter vs warrior case. This has to do with why arena is so dry at the moment and and how there is a total lack of diversity in arena, because every high rated team has a warrior on it. I don't mind warriors with the comp I run. (hunter, enhance shaman, holy h-pally) We actually counter KFC well. It is about warriors in general.

I guess there will always be trolls out there, no matter how you word threads and post to those threads. Thank you for all the people that actually see what I am trying to say. Again...this is NOT me saying I have issues with warriors AS a hunter. This is about the lack of diversity in pvp at a high-level.

[Maxie]

For all the people that read this and say "OMFG A HUNTER COMPLAINING ABOUT WARRIORS?!" This thread was not intended to be a comparison about hunters and warriors. I destroy warriors on my hunter. I have no issues with them on a hunter vs warrior case. This has to do with why arena is so dry at the moment and and how there is a total lack of diversity in arena, because every high rated team has a warrior on it. I don't mind warriors with the comp I run. (hunter, enhance shaman, holy h-pally) We actually counter KFC well. It is about warriors in general.

I guess there will always be trolls out there, no matter how you word threads and post to those threads. Thank you for all the people that actually see what I am trying to say. Again...this is NOT me saying I have issues with warriors AS a hunter. This is about the lack of diversity in pvp at a high-level.

I'm sorry but what, exactly, did you expect from this thread? If you posted it in the PvP forums it might have gotten responses closer to what you're after (a more general discussion of the current class representations in PvP), but the results of making a thread called "class x has too much..." in the forums of class x aren't exactly that hard to figure out, even if your post is high quality (which I cannot comment on, as I PvP extremely little in MoP).

[sbernett]

I'm sorry but what, exactly, did you expect from this thread? If you posted it in the PvP forums it might have gotten responses closer to what you're after (a more general discussion of the current class representations in PvP), but the results of making a thread called "class x has too much..." in the forums of class x aren't exactly that hard to figure out, even if your post is high quality (which I cannot comment on, as I PvP extremely little in MoP).

You are are right, but its not that I didn't expect it. I did feel that I should reinforce the context that I meant when I posted this. I should have done that in the original post to begin with.

[Deleted]

Warrios being a really good, but not overpowered, class is bad for PVP how exactly? Diversity? That is a stupid argument! Diversity is bad for the competitive scene! You want to develop advanced strategies against other teams that do not involve guessing or obscure classes/talent builds that no-one has ever seen.

[Deleted]

Okay, so let me ask a question now: Why play any other melee dps class in arena? Warriors do everything that feral druids do, they do everything that rogues do, they do everything that enhance shaman do, they do everything that ret pallies do, and they do everything that DKs do. Warriors also do everything TWICE! (two amazing defensive cds, two amazing stuns that don't share DR, two interrupts)

I remember last season the argument was the reverse - why bring a warrior when every other class can do what we do, better?

I'd rather have the utility than damage, personally. It's much more fun.

[Flaks]

1. Hunter complaining about warrior...lol.

2. Hunters a BIT OP...lol

3. Warriors have "amazing defensive cds"...lol. (if you can't burn through a warrior popping ALL defensive cds SOLO as a hunter you have more than a few things to learn).

4. Any warrior not picking piercing howl is gimping himself and his team. That means no disrupting shout.

5. Any warrior choosing warbringer doesn't belong in pvp. In picking that talent he's a bigger enemy to his own team than the other team.

6. Warriors have one of the worst GRIPS in the entire game. If you can't peel a warrior off you YOU'RE the problem. We're basically at the level we were in 4.3 with how easy it is to keep a warrior off you.

All in all it's obvious you haven't adjusted to the 5.1 warrior changes and are stuck in the 5.0 mindset (where warriors were blatantly and undeniably op).

The ONLY thing(s) that can be considered op right now are shockwave (too low cd) and cd stacking (burst, which you said ISN'T a problem...). Other classes have a lot more things making them op than warriors right now. Just for hunters there's the fact that they easily outdo frost mages in how well they can kite. Their burst rivals cd stacking warriors. They have great sustained damage outside of los. Their overall control is absurdly powerful.

The "number of warriors above 2200 rating" argument has been debunked hundreds of times. Those warriors have been sitting on their rating from an op as hell period. I'd argue the vast majority of those warriors haven't played since 5.1 or even since 5.0.4 hot fixes. Which means they've been sitting on that rating.

[Kazi]

@OP - I see your new around here. Just FYI you cannot post anything here without being told A) You're a troll or B) QQ L2P

Welcome to MMO-C

[meathead]

"2 AMAZING defensive cds in “die by the sword” and “shield wall”, both one-button saves which don't require any thing special to use. Also second wind? WHAT? Permanent 3% of total health per second regeneration when below 35% total health? How necessary..."


one would think a 2500 rated pvper would know how warrior abilities actually work?they gave warriors die by the sword because shield wall is weak,yes thats right weak.40% damage reduction on a 5 min cd= weak.2nd wind has been nerfed,just like all other heals in arena.only problem is thats a warriors only heal,its has to be strong.2500 my ass.

[Spacepunch]

warrior is easy and so is huntard... end of story.

[Flaks]

@OP - I see your new around here. Just FYI you cannot post anything here without being told A) You're a troll or B) QQ L2P

Welcome to MMO-C

If your arguments make sense and are properly backed up with conclusive evidence no one is going to call you a troll. In fact, MMO-champion is VERY constructive when push comes to shove. But when the original post is a mess of subjectivity mixed with lies obviously it's going to be met with skepticism.

[meathead]

Warriors have too much/ many HATERS!

[Shaderas]

If your arguments make sense and are properly backed up with conclusive evidence no one is going to call you a troll. In fact, MMO-champion is VERY constructive when push comes to shove. But when the original post is a mess of subjectivity mixed with lies obviously it's going to be met with skepticism.

Umm, no. There are still a minority of players who will tell you to L2P and that you are a troll no matter how much evidence you supply to back it up.

And part of what he says is true, Warriors are a little bit OP right now. If they need to be brought down or other classes brought up, not sure. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Blizzard has in mind.

[sbernett]

Ok i dont know where to begin , first of all if you actually believe all of this you are not 2.5k rated that is for sure , secondly since you probably play BM hunter you dont have any reason to cry and die by sword dose not immune the warr for spell dmg or slowing , however a hunter that can deterrence twice in a row is ... let me guess , fine by you just because your dps goes away while you are deterrence'd ??

That is the most retarded thing ive ever heard in my life, after reading that stupid post i thought to myself that i really want to meet you just to punch you in the face.


I could go on and on and on but i dont need to make a 12 page post to shit over you.

One thing before i reply this is , how on earth can you say warriors have more mobility then palas , i mean there are many things wrong with you post but after reading the paladin part i thought you were retarded for sure , freedom + bubble is enough to win warriors in mobility

So stop crying you shit hunter and please dont make another post because no one here wants to hear a BM hunter cry .... hope and you will read this and hopefully for your sake come to think of how fucking retarded you are

HF being the most OP class in the game however long that will last

BTW I made an account here just to shit over you AND THIS IS NO TROLLING

Lol, thank you so much. Clearly constructive feedback. Glad people like you exist

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Well... at least is wasn't another "SECOND WIND IS OP!" thread...

As far as survivability, I think that they should just nerf defensive stance in arms. To say Die By The Swords is exactly the same as Deterrence is to WAY oversell it.

Bring Defensive Stance down to 5% damage reduction in arms and I think we will be just fine.

[Deleted]

Umm, no. There are still a minority of players who will tell you to L2P and that you are a troll no matter how much evidence you supply to back it up.

And part of what he says is true, Warriors are a little bit OP right now. If they need to be brought down or other classes brought up, not sure. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Blizzard has in mind.

This minority even has a name. They're called warriors.

[Shaderas]

Well... at least is wasn't another "SECOND WIND IS OP!" thread...

As far as survivability, I think that they should just nerf defensive stance in arms. To say Die By The Swords is exactly the same as Deterrence is to WAY oversell it.

Bring Defensive Stance down to 5% damage reduction in arms and I think we will be just fine.

Let's compare Deterrence and Die By the Sword.

Deterrence: When activated, causes you to deflect melee attacks, ranged attacks, and spells, and reduces all damage taken by 30%. While Deterrence is active, you cannot attack. Lasts 5 sec. 2 minute cooldown.

Two choices for glyphs: 1, allows allows it to reflect spells. 2, increases damage reduction 20%.

Optional talent to reduce cooldown to 1 minute.


Die by the Sword: Increases your parry chance by 100% and reduces damage taken by 20% for 8 sec. 2 minute cooldown.

(Unsure, can ranged attacks be parried? I know they can be dodged now, when before they used to not be able to be)


It's not a direct comparison... one increases parry and reduces all damage taken while allowing you to continue to deal damage. The other allows you to deflect all attacks, and reduces damage taken, but you cannot attack while it is going (Pet can still deal damage)


Not sure which one is more powerful, but it is situational.