Looking back at swtor over the last year

[Moon-Man]

I think the #1 reason this isn't happening is the "mildly popular IP" component. To coordinate all those good things, with an overall vision to make it happen with a fine attention to detail, takes lots of money, initially and in the long term. That's a tough investment for someone who is drafting a new world from scratch, and way easier to stomach if it's an established IP.

And we're running out of those. LotR, Star Wars, Star Trek, seem like three big ones that had a lot of potential but just didn't cut it in the end. Original IPs can be just as awesome, but generating them (then generating fans to care about them) is way, way harder than drawing in people already predisposed to like things like lightsabers or elves.

I think the industry might draw the wrong conclusions from Tortantic and never sponsor a AAA MMO again . . . with the one exception of Titan. The future of high quality, high population MMOs kinda rests on Titan's shoulders - and I'm not very optimistic about how Blizzard is going to handle that one

If I were you, I would not expect much from "Titan". Doesn't matter if blizzard made it or not..
On Topic: I really enjoyed the game ( i was invited to several closed beta weekends prior to release). Then the day hit somewhere in February, I leveled all classes steadily, my sorcerer got to 50 and I realized something while leveling...I only enjoyed the story of SIs, and that of leveling, I found it more enjoyable than gearing up at 50. But in time, everything became dull and boring (that was at February when I quit).

I kinda knew deep inside of me, that Bioware would find a way to screw this game up (of course, with a little help of their saviour...EA). When I heard that the game was going F2P, I was happy, and disappointed at the same time. But I wanted to give it another go, untill the day I read about the strict restriction with F2P model. Use Cartel points to unlock the ability to hide my helmet slot? and less exp earned...I said, yup, this is not going to end well..F2P model with such restriction should be illegal. What were Bioware/EA thinking.

I will never touch BW game ever again, and any games that has EA logo on in (except for Dead Space series).

[Deleted]

I think the industry might draw the wrong conclusions from Tortantic and never sponsor a AAA MMO again . . . with the one exception of Titan. The future of high quality, high population MMOs kinda rests on Titan's shoulders - and I'm not very optimistic about how Blizzard is going to handle that one

Maybe... the problem is actually in more part in MMO players who keep abandoning one MMO after another just to go back to WOW just to complain how tired they are of it just to complain how new X MMO doesn't have yet what WOW has? Ya know, from an "outside" perspective (TOR is my first MMO I ever played), that's how MMO community looks like to us, no offense. And EVE Online or FF XI Online are hardly 'proofs' that "it ain't all just WOW" when they peak at like 500k compared to 10 million WOW subs

[katta]

Maybe... the problem is actually in more part in MMO players who keep abandoning one MMO after another just to go back to WOW just to complain how tired they are of it just to complain how new X MMO doesn't have yet what WOW has? Ya know, from an "outside" perspective (TOR is my first MMO I ever played), that's how MMO community looks like to us, no offense. And EVE Online or FF XI Online are hardly 'proofs' that "it ain't all just WOW" when they peak at like 500k compared to 10 million WOW subs

If some company would make a good MMO then all those people who left wouldnt go back to WoW. I think many people want something different from WoW. Thats why SWTOR had over 2 million people in the first week. Only to find out that once you hit 50 its almost identical to WoW.

[Kelimbror]

Thats why SWTOR had over 2 million people in the first week.

Wrong.

It had over 2 million people because the game was hyped up, had the weight of the IP, the weight of all SWG players, and the fact that most people who play any MMO other than WoW tend to play every MMO other than WoW.

Only to find out that once you hit 50 its almost identical to WoW.

Wrong.

Once you hit 50 it's certainly nothing like WoW, which is a good reason why no one who came from WoW stayed around. If it had the depth of content and things to do, the polish, and more respectable management then you could have drawn a comparison. They are completely different games and there's no reason to even compare them....regardless of which people prefer.

[Edge-]

Maybe... the problem is actually in more part in MMO players who keep abandoning one MMO after another just to go back to WOW just to complain how tired they are of it just to complain how new X MMO doesn't have yet what WOW has? Ya know, from an "outside" perspective (TOR is my first MMO I ever played), that's how MMO community looks like to us, no offense. And EVE Online or FF XI Online are hardly 'proofs' that "it ain't all just WOW" when they peak at like 500k compared to 10 million WOW subs

Please don't try to blame all this on players.

If a company makes a good game, people will play it. If they set reasonable expectations of success, they won't have to take dramatic actions after launch.

EA/BW apparently had very unreasonable expectations for success (see: multiple deep staff layoffs), as did Funcom with TSW (which hurt them as well). EA/BW clearly had issues with the overall quality of their game.

People left because they could get more value for their money elsewhere, that's why people always leave. Rift is a good example of a game that's stuck with the subscription model and done pretty well over the past few years because they apparently have reasonable expectations for success, and because they have delivered enough value for peoples money.

Nobody is going to reach WoW's levels of success. I don't even know if Blizzard could replicate that with a new game functioning under the same business model today. Comparing any MMO to WoW is pointless as WoW truly is a freak of nature. And FYI if you're just talking Western subs, WoW is closer to 4-4.5 million subscribers, which is an accurate comparison for other games that only have Western releases. That's still miles ahead of any other sub-based game though.

[katta]

[QUOTE=Kittyvicious;20170614]Wrong.

It had over 2 million people because the game was hyped up, had the weight of the IP, the weight of all SWG players, and the fact that most people who play any MMO other than WoW tend to play every MMO other than WoW./[QUOTE]

I think most of the people who joined SWTOR came from WoW, they were looking for something new. The SWG crowd wasnt many(think50k that stayed with the gameand the others that played before where do you think most of them went, WOW?).Where did you get that people who play MMO's othere than WoW tend to play all the MMO's?

Wrong.

Once you hit 50 it's certainly nothing like WoW, which is a good reason why no one who came from WoW stayed around. If it had the depth of content and things to do, the polish, and more respectable management then you could have drawn a comparison. They are completely different games and there's no reason to even compare them....regardless of which people prefer.

Its everything like WoW but only not as good.

Operations and flashpoints are raids and dungeons. You also get locked out once a week.

Warzones are BG's. Even some of the warzones are copies of WoW. The warzones where you have to blow up the doors and there are 2 ways though the first 3 sections to the last door. What BG does that copy? Then there is the one where you have 3 places that you have to sit at to take control of to gain points to win. That one sound familiar?

Then the dailies are all there.

Then the grind for gear.Tokens,coins,points whatever you call them.

What else is there to do at 50? Besides space missions which is a rail sidegame.

WoW may have more but SWTOR still is copying it. Thats why people left and went back to WoW. People are going to want the popular and more polished game rather than the cheap copy that isnt as good.

[Kelimbror]

Actually, It's like every MMO and not WoW at all...so your point is still going nowhere.

Operations and flashpoints are raids and dungeons. You also get locked out once a week.

Hello every MMO that isn't GW2

Warzones are BG's. Even some of the warzones are copies of WoW.

Battlegrounds...hmm...welcome back to every MMO and not just WoW.

The warzones where you have to blow up the doors and there are 2 ways though the first 3 sections to the last door. What BG does that copy? Then there is the one where you have 3 places that you have to sit at to take control of to gain points to win. That one sound familiar?

...I guess you define 'copied' as being completely different. Glad we cleared that up before I take anything else seriously.

Then the dailies are all there.

Welcome to every MMO, even GW2

Then the grind for gear.Tokens,coins,points whatever you call them.

WELCOME TO MMOS DO YOU HAVE THE POINT YET?

You are listing qualities pretty much standard in the genre and using it to unjustly directly compare this game with WoW. Your logic is faulty and your continued pressing on this subject is borderline against forum rules. Stop now, while you are only slightly behind.

[Zogarth]

You are listing qualities pretty much standard in the genre and using it to unjustly directly compare this game with WoW. Your logic is faulty and your continued pressing on this subject is borderline against forum rules. Stop now, while you are only slightly behind.

Planetside 2 does not have all the things you listed, and that is most certainly an MMO.

OT: My biggest problem with SWTOR was that they first of all made a hotkey MMORPG... i am tired of those by now. Another big problem is in my opinion that they did not explore the whole space aspect more. Allow us to do more in space. Like travel around finding randomly created mini-dungeons you can do with your entire crew, or make pvp with your spaceships. Just something to make the whole spaceship thing more than a small mini-game.

[notorious98]

Planetside 2 does not have all the things you listed, and that is most certainly an MMO.

Apples and oranges. When he's saying "MMO", he's referring to "MMORPG". PS2 is an "MMOFPS". While both allow for many people to be online, the two genres are vastly different.

---------- Post added 2013-02-10 at 08:59 PM ----------

Its everything like WoW but only not as good.

Everybody can go back and forth, but if you want to break it down, then WoW ripped all of that off of EQ. WSG is just capture the flag. AB is just capture the base. Neither of those BGs are exclusive to, nor created by, Blizzard. And all of that would have been considered "industry standard" before WoW. The problem boils down to the fact that it's becoming a stale model.

The warzones where you have to blow up the doors and there are 2 ways though the first 3 sections to the last door.

Actually, Voidstar has 2 doors for every entrance, even the last set before the computer. It also doesn't have siege vehicles and cannons and is true PvP.

[Kelimbror]

Planetside 2 does not have all the things you listed, and that is most certainly an MMO.

Call of Duty in Space =/= MMO. Firefall is actually an MMO. The differences aren't subtle either.

[Edge-]

Call of Duty in Space =/= MMO. Firefall is actually an MMO. The differences aren't subtle either.

Planetside 2 is absolutely an MMO, complete with a persistent world inhabited by thousands of people simultaneously.

It's a different type of MMO (MMOFPS vs. MMORPG) but it's a MMO nonetheless.

[Cooper]

The angle to go when pointing out that TOR is blatantly copied from WoW is the 31-point talent trees and/or, say, warrior/knight mechanics and skills being virtually verbatim WoW's warrior.

Anybody who argues that TOR isn't a WoW-clone is being disingenuous. And there are plenty of MMOs that are not WoW-clones: Lord of the Rings Online; DC Universe Online; Guild Wars 2; Star Trek Online, just off the top of my head. There's also Ultima Online and pre-NGE Galaxies which, while predecessors to WoW, also show that MMOs don't have to be the same as Blizzard's game. BioWare (and I'm guessing LucasArts) specifically chose to make TOR in the image of WoW.

[Kelimbror]

Planetside 2 is absolutely an MMO, complete with a persistent world inhabited by thousands of people simultaneously.

It's a different type of MMO (MMOFPS vs. MMORPG) but it's a MMO nonetheless.

I don't find a never ending battleground without a narrative to be what we really perceive MMO's to be. I can call anything that's online with lots of players an MMO, but we know that's a load of crap. If we're going that route, then Farmville 2 is just as much an MMO which is pretty silly.

[alturic]

False. It would be a much darker world if this were true.

Please elaborate? For-profit companies exist SOLELY for the purpose of making money.

---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 08:58 AM ----------

Planetside 2 does not have all the things you listed, and that is most certainly an MMO.

OT: My biggest problem with SWTOR was that they first of all made a hotkey MMORPG... i am tired of those by now. Another big problem is in my opinion that they did not explore the whole space aspect more. Allow us to do more in space. Like travel around finding randomly created mini-dungeons you can do with your entire crew, or make pvp with your spaceships. Just something to make the whole spaceship thing more than a small mini-game.

My biggest problem was the sliding animations/quirkiness to the overall models/animations. People say it got better after launch, but I couldn't even experience the things you mentioned because of how clunky it felt.

[Kelimbror]

Please elaborate? For-profit companies exist SOLELY for the purpose of making money.

1) Original statement didn't say 'for profit companies', didn't think I needed to explain non profits.

2) Your claim of 'SOLELY' is incredibly wrong, which was my entire point. Companies factor lots of things into the equation. I never said making money wasn't an ultimate goal, but to think that's their entire reason for being is simple minded.

3) Please explain people working themselves into debt doing things they love. Artists, independent game developers, numerous other businesses. Clearly they don't have making money as even the number 1 priority. If people actually believe that all companies care about is money then they need some real world education.

[alturic]

1) Original statement didn't say 'for profit companies', didn't think I needed to explain non profits.

2) Your claim of 'SOLELY' is incredibly wrong, which was my entire point. Companies factor lots of things into the equation. I never said making money wasn't an ultimate goal, but to think that's their entire reason for being is simple minded.

3) Please explain people working themselves into debt doing things they love. Artists, independent game developers, numerous other businesses. Clearly they don't have making money as even the number 1 priority. If people actually believe that all companies care about is money then they need some real world education.

I didn't think when someone says "company" they had to specifically say "for profit", even non-profit companies are there to make money. They need money to provide the resources to the people they are trying to help.

Companies factor NOTHING but "are we making more than we are spending" into the equation. If they are spending more than they are making they'll cut their loses and close that particular location or the whole company. For example, the wife has a pretty decent situation currently to where (on paper) she's an assistant (hourly) but in reality and technically she's a store manager. She works 70+ hours a week for the past 3 months. Her store does $500k+/month in sales and considering I have access to information such as vendor prices, employee wages and any and every other "bill" they are making a huge profit. Do you think the company would give two shits if she was salaried and working 70+ hours a week? Nope, they only care because they are paying her. They'll save about $1500 every 2 weeks if she works only 40 hours or goes salaried. That's just how companies work. $3000/month is pocket change to them, but business is all about the bottom line.

I think you are confusing companies with someone working by themselves for themselves, which is not a company. If they do (in the case of an artist) form a company for some reason and they are making no money/little money/spending more than taking in, their company is a failure. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I mean it in a business sense way. If you're making less than you are spending you're operating at a loss, which by and large is considering a failue in the business world since you can't sustain it.

If an independent game developer operates at a loss for so long that their capital dries up, they layoff people and then cancel the game while closing the doors.

I think you may have misinterepated "making money" as to what something like Apple does (not even WalMart is in the same ballpark as Apple in regards to prices on products) by charging $500 for a phone or $900 for a tablet. Business like that is what gives the rest of the business world a bad name.

[Kelimbror]

Companies factor NOTHING but "are we making more than we are spending" into the equation.

This statement alone proves you have no concept of how business works. Not to mention what altruism is. It's very convenient to paint the business world with broad strokes and generalizations, but it's simply not true. We could sit here and rationalize that every action made without reference to money is actually just another strategy to make money.

That's like saying every step I take is for the sole purpose of breathing oxygen. I eat food so I can breathe more air. I sleep so I can wake up to breathe more air. It's a logical fallacy.

Do some companies exist solely for money? Probably. Those are the companies that tend to be utter dickbags and we can spot them a mile away. It's very convenient to villainize an industry and paint their actions as only strategies to make money. It's also very ignorant of real world concepts.

You are making a logical jump to a conclusion that isn't related. There's no causality. Do you think businesses donate to charity only when it's somehow profitable from write offs? Or that providing good benefits for employees is only because their productivity somehow turns into more money? Or tech jobs that provide unlimited floating time off so you can leave whenever you like? Economics, ethics, and human interaction in a commercial society cannot be reduced into one motivating factor.

I hate to break this news to everyone. Maybe you should take some business classes at community college. It's a good place to start for a foundation on actually knowing what's going on.

[Parrin]

This statement alone proves you have no concept of how business works. Not to mention what altruism is. It's very convenient to paint the business world with broad strokes and generalizations, but it's simply not true. We could sit here and rationalize that every action made without reference to money is actually just another strategy to make money.

That's like saying every step I take is for the sole purpose of breathing oxygen. I eat food so I can breathe more air. I sleep so I can wake up to breathe more air. It's a logical fallacy.*snip*

The logical fallacy is ignoring the simple requirement of money to do business. Is that the reason some entrepreneur starts a business? Hopefully not. But it is the underlying requirement for anything else that he/she wants to do. Stop trying to demonize any company that prioritizes staying afloat over customer service. It's just silly and shortsighted. Once a company realizes a perpetual profit, then they can try to be the good guys.

I have an MBA. Your entire post just screams "I am not a manager". Edit: Or at least not a good manager.

[vep]

Honestly, I disliked the game from since it was announced. There's just no possible way they could make an MMO with lightsabers plausible for me. Do they really expect me to walk around with a lightsaber spamming an ability that does X% of weapon damage when we all know and love the slice-in-half aspect of the lightsabers? Or what, am I supposed to carry a lightsaber into a boss fight and stand in the back while casting healing spells? And as for healing spells... That's just wrong... I know that from an MMO aspect you kinda need healers in a raid but come on, is a Sith supposed to cast Holy Light or something?
And also, for me, the story... There's no story that is comparable to any kind of story Yoda is in, for example....

I just knew I would dislike the game very much even since it's been announced...

[RoninaThorstone]

Honestly, I disliked the game from since it was announced. There's just no possible way they could make an MMO with lightsabers plausible for me. Do they really expect me to walk around with a lightsaber spamming an ability that does X% of weapon damage when we all know and love the slice-in-half aspect of the lightsabers? Or what, am I supposed to carry a lightsaber into a boss fight and stand in the back while casting healing spells? And as for healing spells... That's just wrong... I know that from an MMO aspect you kinda need healers in a raid but come on, is a Sith supposed to cast Holy Light or something?
And also, for me, the story... There's no story that is comparable to any kind of story Yoda is in, for example....

I just knew I would dislike the game very much even since it's been announced...

People who only know star wars as seen in movies have an issue with that.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis-weave