Patch 5.2 PTR Mage Changes

[Nitwit]

"Duration" is meaningless due to the use of the word "sustained", meaning, I can keep it up indefinitely.

DPS typically isn't a flat line, especially for a spec like arcane. When you decide to end the test (in relation to how it lines up with cooldowns) will have an impact on the final DPS number.

As far as gear is concerned, it is standard PTR testing gear (that you can get at the PTR vendors, which, at this point is the new tier gear).

That only covers 5 items. Whether the rest of your slots consist of the pre-made 463 blues, the PvP vendor gear, or 2/2 upgraded ilvl 517 heroic pieces copied over from live will have a big impact how impressive those numbers are.

The validity of the test is further enforced since everyone else has identical gear too (make a PTR template). I am also comparing my own performance as Arcane to my performance as the other two specs (I have around 4 template mages on the PTR, each geared, chanted, and reforged specifically - two of them are Arcane, one focused on a haste build, the other on a mastery build).

You made no mention of spec comparisons in the post I responded to, so this response seems to be somewhat random.

During 'competitive' testing (i.e. in raids), testing and aforementioned results are further qualified due to the fact that there is a raid wide buff that forcibly scales all characters' stats to ilvl 480.

Hence, gear is not a factor.

Again, your post was about dummy DPS, not raids with normalized ilvl. So, yeah, gear is still a factor in terms of providing context.

[Polarthief]

Still surprised we have no change to frost mastery to allow for better scaling.

Other than that QoL of 5.2 for frost is improving, which is nice. I still would like the level 90 talents nixed and replaced with something other than upkeep talents.

Nyeh, "improving" is questionable. I particularly enjoyed Freeze, and not having that on-demand burst is going to suck (especially when going back to Elegon or Gara'jal for whatever reason). Also, Invo is a nerf to both DPS and Haste scaling (another DPS loss), so that also hurts. Overall, Frost still isn't at the competitive level, but they seem to only care about Arcane and Invo atm while ignoring Fire, Frost, RoP, and IW.

[jtmzac]

Still surprised we have no change to frost mastery to allow for better scaling.

Other than that QoL of 5.2 for frost is improving, which is nice. I still would like the level 90 talents nixed and replaced with something other than upkeep talents.

There is QoL improvements but there are also problems cause by changes. I would say frost is only a little bit better then live right now overall.

I finally understand what people mean when they say the invocation buff feels like a chore and not part of the rotation. That's how it feels to me on the ptr. Apart from being able to chain evocate before the pull I find myself wishing we were keeping the live invocation.

[Polarthief]

I finally understand what people mean when they say the invocation buff feels like a chore and not part of the rotation. That's how it feels to me on the ptr. Apart from being able to chain evocate before the pull I find myself wishing we were keeping the live invocation.

Please... no...

I'm tired of dying to things because I chose to evocate then OOPS, FUCKING RANDOM SHIT SPAWNS ON ME, so I get to play the amazing "If/Then" string in my head all in the span of a second or two, whereas with PTR Invocate, the cast is DONE in a few seconds, rather than 4-6.

While I'm sad about the overall nerf (unless a fight is really long) to DPS for using Invocation, the QoL from the new PTR one is AMAZING (for Fire/Frost at least) because that If/Then string will pretty much cease to exist and will become a normal spellcast "If/Then".

[Akraen]

Well, the frostbolt debuff change really has helped with QoL. On PTR I notice numbers to be just slightly lower than live. I'm not as unhappy with our numbers as everyone else simply because I tend to keep pace and beat other classes regularly (I try not to compare mage vs. mage, rather, am I justifying my raid slot as frost. I'd change specs only if frost was a liability in the grander scheme, like in Dragon Soul).

Personally I never saw the problem with WE freeze. I bound it to my F key years ago and never considered it difficult. I loved the flexibility I had to get 1-2 charges whenever I needed them. I like seeing if other mages are clever enough to line up a WE freeze to overlap a dissonance field with Shek'zeer to double charges, or Garalon leg + Garalon, or clever WE freezes on Heroic Will really made the difference. So I'm with you, we're losing a little bit of our creative identity with that change.

Our mastery really needs to change. This isn't just me saying it-- it really should be clear to developers that a mastery which is mostly used in PvP on a spec that is considered too powerful in PvP could do with a change that would gravitate the stat back towards PvE (i.e., make it increase frost damage by x->y% on targets immune to freeze; or simply a flat scaling on frostbolt; or it could be an additional mastery-scaled DoT that gets added to your bomb explosion, which would allow frost bomb to be used again with the DoT-only trinkets they keep giving us /anger)

---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 11:58 PM ----------

Please... no...

I'm tired of dying to things because I chose to evocate then OOPS, FUCKING RANDOM SHIT SPAWNS ON ME, so I get to play the amazing "If/Then" string in my head all in the span of a second or two, whereas with PTR Invocate, the cast is DONE in a few seconds, rather than 4-6.

How many times were you 1 sec from finishing evocation and Mel'jarak puts a wind bomb on you? GRRR.

[zomgDPS]

There is QoL improvements but there are also problems cause by changes. I would say frost is only a little bit better then live right now overall.

For QoL overall, I can definately attest to the fact that frost has it best. Imho, it is hands down the 'best' of the mage specs as far as gameplay and kit is concerned.

Its complete dominance in every other aspect of competitive play is a testament to this. Even for a die-hard Arcanist myself, Frost is overall a much more fulfilling spec to play, gameplay wise.


Arcane's gameplay is deeply rooted in the toilet, and Fire's is waaay to reliant on gear. Unfortunately, neither of these things will be fixed this expansion, and we are most definitely not going to see the level 90 talents replaced.


@Nitwit, ironically, it is you who has missed the context of the discussion. My post was not a "HERE IS MY REPORT LOOK AT ALL MY RESULTS LOOK AT ALL THIS DATA" post (which is what you are strawmanning it to be). It was merely a suggestion to Skidd on the previous page that he might not have the correct picture of Arcane like he assumes to have, especially considering he did not manage to produce what is widely considered "OP" numbers with the spec.

Due to your lack of context, your 'i'm going to play the forum drama game and he-said-she said zomg's post' tactic, will not work.

It does, however, seem that you are more interested in playing the 'forum one-up-ur-opponent' game rather than understand not only my point, but the context of the discussion. Which is a shame since you would have learned something in the process.


Rest assured, my 'report' as you so feverishly are attempting to glean, has already been made through the proper channels. When I make it here, you will notice the difference.

[Polarthief]

Well, the frostbolt debuff change really has helped with QoL. On PTR I notice numbers to be just slightly lower than live. I'm not as unhappy with our numbers as everyone else simply because I tend to keep pace and beat other classes regularly (I try not to compare mage vs. mage, rather, am I justifying my raid slot as frost. I'd change specs only if frost was a liability in the grander scheme, like in Dragon Soul).

Personally I never saw the problem with WE freeze. I bound it to my F key years ago and never considered it difficult. I loved the flexibility I had to get 1-2 charges whenever I needed them. I like seeing if other mages are clever enough to line up a WE freeze to overlap a dissonance field with Shek'zeer to double charges, or Garalon leg + Garalon, or clever WE freezes on Heroic Will really made the difference. So I'm with you, we're losing a little bit of our creative identity with that change.

Our mastery really needs to change. This isn't just me saying it-- it really should be clear to developers that a mastery which is mostly used in PvP on a spec that is considered too powerful in PvP could do with a change that would gravitate the stat back towards PvE (i.e., make it increase frost damage by x->y% on targets immune to freeze; or simply a flat scaling on frostbolt; or it could be an additional mastery-scaled DoT that gets added to your bomb explosion, which would allow frost bomb to be used again with the DoT-only trinkets they keep giving us /anger)

Oh yeah, the debuff change helps for FB, that's for sure. I'm still unhappy that it's under Fire/Arcane, and the lack of Freeze still makes me upset. I loved having it and not having it now makes the specc feel boring (Spam FB, keep up DoT, use FFB and IL when shit proccs). Also notice how close to Fire this 'new' rotation is.

- Spam Main Nuke (Fireball/Frostbolt)
- Keep up Mage Bomb (Your choice)
- Use Proccs when they procc (Pyroblast/Ice Lance & Frostfire Bolt)
- Keep up Invocation (or stand still in RoP)

The only exceptions to this is to use Combustion and Frozen Orb on cooldown. Huh, go figure. THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME ROTATIONS. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO THE SPECCS NOW.

How many times were you 1 sec from finishing evocation and Mel'jarak puts a wind bomb on you? GRRR.

Too many times, but my biggest issue was Elegon P3. The spark things that would come down probably caused a good 10 wipes in total for our Normal AND Heroic pulls.

[Skidd]

Fair enough zomgDPS. I will go back and re-evaluate. I think my expectations are set a little high but after you stated those numbers I was pulling similar in our raid testing.

[jtmzac]

How many times were you 1 sec from finishing evocation and Mel'jarak puts a wind bomb on you? GRRR.

Too many times, but my biggest issue was Elegon P3. The spark things that would come down probably caused a good 10 wipes in total for our Normal AND Heroic pulls.

For wind lord you just don't evocate until just after he casts wind bomb. Elegon is really just rng if you get targeted by the meteor thing that spawns an add while evocating.

For me and some others having to evocate around mechanics is what makes evocation interesting. Obviously there are people who don't like this and at least on live you have the option of using rop.

[kirit0]

zomgDPsS i would like to compare the dps so let me know when you will br running next LFR my toon name is Kiritoo thx

[Polarthief]

Btw, has anyone done testing for Fire on the PTR? How's it compare against other classes?

---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 12:31 AM ----------

For me and some others having to evocate around mechanics is what makes evocation interesting. Obviously there are people who don't like this and at least on live you have the option of using rop.

Heh, yeah, on live for two more weeks.

RoP will be 100% pointless and unused for Fire and Frost come 5.2

"Cast a 2-3s spell every 60s, or cast a global that forces you to stand still every 60s". I wonder which one I'm going to pick... XD

They really, and I mean, REALLY fucked RoP over.

[Skidd]

My fire PTR testing has not gone well. The gear that is available to you other than the tier gear does not support it. On average 25%-30% crit self buffed is not enough to over come the CM nerf. Fire might be viable when you have filled out some slots with 522 gear though.

[Nitwit]

@Nitwit, ironically, it is you who has missed the context of the discussion. My post was not a "HERE IS MY REPORT LOOK AT ALL MY RESULTS LOOK AT ALL THIS DATA" post (which is what you are strawmanning it to be).

There is no stawman involved. I didn't claim you made a data-centric post - if anything, I've said the exact opposite of that. I was requesting the missing data, and for some reason you're lashing out against the idea of providing it.

It was merely a suggestion to Skidd on the previous page that he might not have the correct picture of Arcane like he assumes to have, especially considering he did not manage to produce what is widely considered "OP" numbers with the spec.

And if you wanted to make this point stronger, it'd be very easy. Sustaining 100k dps against the training dummy would be very impressive if all you're using is the T15 gear off of the vendor combined with the pre-made's standard 463 blues. If you're using heroic raiding gear copied over from live, it is markedly less impressive.

Due to your lack of context, your 'i'm going to play the forum drama game and he-said-she said zomg's post' tactic, will not work.

It does, however, seem that you are more interested in playing the 'forum one-up-ur-opponent' game rather than understand not only my point, but the context of the discussion.

You're the only one trying to cause drama. I requested very simple information (duration of tests + average ilvl) in order to provide context for otherwise meaningless figures.

[jtmzac]

Heh, yeah, on live for two more weeks.

RoP will be 100% pointless and unused for Fire and Frost come 5.2

"Cast a 2-3s spell every 60s, or cast a global that forces you to stand still every 60s". I wonder which one I'm going to pick... XD

They really, and I mean, REALLY fucked RoP over.

Having only 1 viable level 90 talent is ridiculously stupid design. Even though I really like invocation a complete redesign at this point seems to be the only way to fix the problem. Dark days ahead for mages unless blizz performs a miracle in the next few weeks.

[mrgreenthump]

My fire PTR testing has not gone well. The gear that is available to you other than the tier gear does not support it. On average 25%-30% crit self buffed is not enough to over come the CM nerf. Fire might be viable when you have filled out some slots with 522 gear though.

I had 33% selfbuffed crit before 5.1 hit, so unless the gear has magically disappeared.. you should be able to get around 35% selfbuffed atm with t14 upgraded gear, and around 40% next patch with better optimized gear

[Skidd]

This was with T15 in 5 slots and and premade 463 blues in the rest, while maintaining hit I only managed at most 30% crit on the PTR. The DPS in comparision was only slightly higher than frost but behind by some margin in arcane mastery build.

[mrgreenthump]

This was with T15 in 5 slots and and premade 463 blues in the rest, while maintaining hit I only managed at most 30% crit.

Oh xD, makes sense then ^^

[Polarthief]

Having only 1 viable level 90 talent is ridiculously stupid design. Even though I really like invocation a complete redesign at this point seems to be the only way to fix the problem. Dark days ahead for mages unless blizz performs a miracle in the next few weeks.

TBH I'll manage. I lasted through 5.0-5.2. Invo is fine as it is for the time being. A slight annoyance compared to live which is a good 3x+ the annoyance

Granted, yeah, the only way to fix this is a flat DPS buff across the board, removing the L90 talents, and giving us fun or useful shit, e.g., Priest, Paladin, Warlock, etc.

[jtmzac]

Granted, yeah, the only way to fix this is a flat DPS buff across the board, removing the L90 talents, and giving us fun or useful shit, e.g., Priest, Paladin, Warlock, etc.

That would be nice. I'm not completely convinced we need 1 less move though. As long as the fun talents were actually used it would be fine.

[Polarthief]

That would be nice. I'm not completely convinced we need 1 less move though. As long as the fun talents were actually used it would be fine.

So Priest, Paladin, Hunter, Warrior, etc?