1. #2221
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Way I did it, ranged were at range to keep out the lightning more easily, only moved in to pick up Corrupted Waters to TP out again. I did do it 25 man, but I can't see it being a good idea to take all that extra raid damage within a 10 man group *shrug*. Either way, chances are you wont get to 9 stacks.
    Do have the slightest idea how this encounter works? That you stack the buff on warlocks, mages, shadowpriests and tanks before anyone else because they blow any melee in terms of dps on this fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Some do, question the inconsistency of it because I don't fully understand it myself. I can only guess that the specific reason they didn't in that fight is because it's meant to be a melee thing so they don't get completely benched for elite mode where they need to stand in AoE.
    That would have been the dumbest reason i have ever heard to discriminate pet classes. I tell you why they did not include pets like they they did it with a lot of major buffs in almost every content: Either they are not aware that there are pet classes out there or they think its not worth the time to implement it. What do you think is more realistic?
    Last edited by luckydevours; 2013-03-02 at 02:19 PM.

  2. #2222
    If you're not stacking on your Warlock asap you're gimping your raid. Now please go back to the discussion about 5.2 instead of arguing about tactics on old content.

  3. #2223
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    If you're not stacking on your Warlock asap you're gimping your raid. Now please go back to the discussion about 5.2 instead of arguing about tactics on old content.

    No one is arguing about old tactics, sirminimod. We're talking about GC's lack of understanding about the issue of buffs not transferring to pets, and helping Jessicka understand the issue.

  4. #2224
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    Do have the slightest idea how this encounter works? That you stack the buff on warlocks, mages, shadowpriests and tanks before anyone else because they blow any melee in terms of dps on this fight?
    You're talking about principally multidotting right? All that multidot damage that gets wasted when a protector dies and the others heal up?

    That would have been the dumbest reason i ever heard to discriminate pet classes. I tell you why they did not include pets like they they did it with a lot of major buffs in almost every content: Either they do not care or they think its not worth the time to implement it. What do you think is more realistic?
    Depends on the intention of implementation. Probably not worth the effort if Hunters/Warlocks aren't 'supposed' to be the ones getting the buff. It's not because "They hate and discriminate against pet classes." Try asking as a BM Hunter why it's so to avoid confusion with Sac (because that's what that entire twitter thread was about).
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-03-02 at 02:27 PM.

  5. #2225
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    No one is arguing about old tactics, sirminimod. We're talking about GC's lack of understanding about the issue of buffs not transferring to pets, and helping Jessicka understand the issue.
    yeah right

  6. #2226
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    No one is arguing about old tactics, sirminimod. We're talking about GC's lack of understanding about the issue of buffs not transferring to pets, and helping Jessicka understand the issue.
    Yeah, I get your argument now, that whole thing came off the back of a train of Sac QQ which probably threw him (as it did me). I don't get the inconsistency either, but it's not something that keeps me awake at night.

  7. #2227
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You're talking about principally multidotting right? All that multidot damage that gets wasted when a protector dies and the others heal up?
    I rest my case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Depends on the intention of implementation. Probably not worth the effort if Hunters/Warlocks aren't 'supposed' to be the ones getting the buff. It's not because "They hate and discriminate against pet classes." Try asking as a BM Hunter why it's so to avoid confusion with Sac (because that's what that entire twitter thread was about).
    What is this "ranged not supposed to get the buff"-thingy you are talking about? Think want you want of Blizzard's principles of game design, but not even me does believe they are this ignorant. No, they simply forgot it like they do every time, because they do not care about pets. Do i really have to name every example of their additude to this topic that we have seen in the past?
    Last edited by luckydevours; 2013-03-02 at 02:40 PM.

  8. #2228
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    I think they may have had in mind one way of defeating the encounter, and players found another. Happens all the time.

    Again though, I would like them to address the inconsistency, but he didn't avoid the question, he just misunderstood the context when they were talking in that thread about Sacrifice. That's the problem with Twitter, incomplete questions and incomplete answers.

  9. #2229
    Heroic Protectors is not a case of "dont give it to these dps classes". By the time the fight is over, practically everyone in the raid will have 9 stacks or close to it. I don't know where the idea about it being a melee thing came from, but if you just stack it on melee one of two things will happen:

    Your melee will reach 10 stacks, blow up, and wipe the raid
    or
    Your melee will reach 9 stacks early, they won't be able to take more, so their stacks will fall off and they'll have to restart from 1 stack during the most dps intensive part of the fight.

    The adds spawn very, very quickly, and theres nothing to indicate that this should go to melee over anyone else. All dps have to share it. There's simply no other way to do it. Hell, even healers have to take it towards the end.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2013-03-02 at 04:19 PM.

  10. #2230
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    Um, I don't know if any of you have ever done Heroic Protectors, but it's not a case of "dont give it to these dps classes". By the time the fight is over, practically everyone in the raid will have 9 stacks or close to it.

    Indeed, and every pet in the raid will have zero stacks. That's the issue GC is failing to understand.

  11. #2231
    What this boils down to...

    Group A - "We are fine with the minimal micro involving pets as long as: they don't bug out, they scale with gear, and they dont get screwed over by fight mechanics (buffs/range/aoe)."

    Group B/Blizzard - "GoSac can't be as good as pet talents or no one will ever take a pet."

    Group A - "Yeah, but what about all the issues with pets we just mentioned?"

    Group B/Blizzard - "Green Fire!"

  12. #2232
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Seems like I need to remind some of you again to keep the discussion about opinions and facts and not get personal about who's making the remarks. Backseat moderating is also not needed, the moderating staff are available to handle stuff like that. If there's something in the thread that needs adressing just report the post in question and we'll see that report and handle it.

  13. #2233
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeadott View Post
    What this boils down to...

    Group A - "We are fine with the minimal micro involving pets as long as: they don't bug out, they scale with gear, and they dont get screwed over by fight mechanics (buffs/range/aoe)."

    Group B/Blizzard - "GoSac can't be as good as pet talents or no one will ever take a pet."

    Group A - "Yeah, but what about all the issues with pets we just mentioned?"

    Group B/Blizzard - "Green Fire!"

    Lol, great post

    People do not realize that with the GoSac nerf were also nerfed Fel Flame and Shadowburn without any compensation. It's not just a matter of GoSac versus GoSup but how GC interacts with the community and how his motives are unclear.
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  14. #2234
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    Lol, great post

    People do not realize that with the GoSac nerf were also nerfed Fel Flame and Shadowburn without any compensation. It's not just a matter of GoSac versus GoSup but how GC interacts with the community and how his motives are unclear.
    I presume I'm Group B, but it seems odd that people are happy to pick up KJC for convenience over AV's pure damage, but not Sac for convenience over pets' damage.

    As bad as Protectors might be, I don't think there will ever be a fight as bad as Alysrazor which is the big reason and prime example people asked for Sac in the first place. There's nothing to stop you picking up Sac for those such encounters.

    I think GC has said more than once he finds Twitter too limited, but that the alternative of the forums not limited enough.

  15. #2235
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post

    As bad as Protectors might be, I don't think there will ever be a fight as bad as Alysrazor
    I would say Blizzard are very aware of these particular raid mechanics and in 5.2 at least have been actively trying to make pets benefit. Pets now benefit from the extra buffs on Jin'Rokh, Primordius and Ji-kun (and did not on the latter two originally). There is perhaps an argument that pets are still inferior on Ji-Kun since they can't fly, but they're very much taking steps in the right direction and I don't see it being a significant issue. There are no encounters in 5.2 where you'll be strongly penalized for using a pet.

  16. #2236
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I presume I'm Group B, but it seems odd that people are happy to pick up KJC for convenience over AV's pure damage, but not Sac for convenience over pets' damage.

    As bad as Protectors might be, I don't think there will ever be a fight as bad as Alysrazor which is the big reason and prime example people asked for Sac in the first place. There's nothing to stop you picking up Sac for those such encounters.

    I think GC has said more than once he finds Twitter too limited, but that the alternative of the forums not limited enough.
    again: nobody (but me) is complaining about the nerf Shadowburn and fel flame ... nobody noticed it, or nobody uses in pvp like me? A nerf without compensation and without reason is always bad. Maybe GC not noticed the nerf in these skills (I hope)
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  17. #2237
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    So you're basically admitting that pets are inconvenient? Wouldn't the better design be one that makes them worth having?
    Pets are something you have to manage, like embers or cps or mana. Is the game more fun if we remove every such inconvenience?
    Wish someone would respond... Demo has had to manage a pet, mana, AND demonic fury... just in my humble opinion, taking away 1 of 3 is far from "removing every such inconvenience."

    Same goes for affli/destro, warlocks are already among the extreme end of having to manage multiple resources/procs (imho again of course).

    [edit] Is it just me, or is "inconvenience" a really bad term? I agree having to manage resources and cooldowns is compelling play, but "inconveniences" are definitely not compelling play in my books.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-03-02 at 06:05 PM.

  18. #2238
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I presume I'm Group B, but it seems odd that people are happy to pick up KJC for convenience over AV's pure damage, but not Sac for convenience over pets' damage.
    I think you're confusing convenience with fun on the one hand and broken/poorly implemented mechanics on the other honestly.

    I take KC 100% of the time (even if I can get away with not moving) over AV. The dmg from AV is pretty negligible (1.5% on avg maybe?), so it's not killing the raid if I don't take it. Whereas, KC let's me constantly run/jump/etc while dpsing to keep my ADD in check. Like being a druid or disc in the ICC days, love it! It's not a convenience thing.

    Playing with GoSac, on the other hand, isn't really 'fun', it just negates the bugs/broken mechanics of dealing with pets. I don't think that's convenience, I think it's working around poorly implemented technology and bugs on blizzard's part. Pressing Ctrl+1 really isn't inconvenient at all (no more so then summon/saccing a pet before a pull imo), but dealing with broken/poorly implemented mechanics just sucks.

    Regardless, KC has nothing to do with GoSac. Simple point - fix pets so they dont bug, they scale with gear, and fight mechanics are pet friendly and NO ONE will object to them.

  19. #2239
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokeadott View Post
    The dmg from AV is pretty negligible (1.5% on avg maybe?)
    This depends on the fight, Zor'lok for instance I've had kills where it is 4-5% of my damage.

  20. #2240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I presume I'm Group B, but it seems odd that people are happy to pick up KJC for convenience over AV's pure damage, but not Sac for convenience over pets' damage.
    Well, with regards to KJC and AV, they are both in the players hands as to how you use them - you're playing your own char. With regards to pets, you're left somewhat at the mercy of the pet which sometimes has a mind of its own no matter how well you micromanage it and does dumb stuff.

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