Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Bonkura]

But seriously, to me it looks like this change will prompt them not to buff Destruction.

They just buffed Destruction couple of days ago and now it's up for testing on PTR. If you feel it's not enough and can provide data for it they are happy to receive your feedback.

[Spektroman]

These synergistic abilities just go back to Beta when Destro had 'Destructive Influence', which ultimately became Pyroclasm; because the synergy didn't work with Sacrifice.

I believe there's a happy medium between "forcing players to always use pets" (like it was in cataclysm. It was even worse back then because you were forced into specific pets for each spec) and "force players to always sacrifice a pet". The major problem I see currently is that destro needs to completely alter its reforge strategy based on whether or not you're using a pet (assuming you're trying to be optimal). A reasonable, but not excessive buff to your Chaos Bolt damage and ember generation through your pet is, in my opinion, a good way to make pets desirable without completely destroying the petless option.

As for affliction, it is still my opinion that sacrificing a pet should be a good idea in multi-target fights (where your pet would be detrimental because it's running all over the place) and a bad idea in single target, so your pet would get an additional dot making malefic grasp even better. Said dot would have to have a reasonably short duration (say 6 seconds) so you won't be compelled to micro your pet to dot everything in sight, but it should be a nice boost to your single target damage.

I'm not sure where this happy medium between compelling a player towards a pet vs. compelling a player to sacrificing a pet is, but if I had to choose one of those to have the "edge" over the other I'd rather be the pet option.

The options I present are meant to be something nice, but not mandatory. Mandatory to me is something like destro in cataclysm: either you use an imp, or you lose instant-cast soulfire procs. That's not good gameplay because every time you want to switch pets, you feel like you're being punished. Instead the bonuses should be something general, that all pets benefit from.

[Bonkura]

As long as mastery doesn't affect pet damage I will be completely against it. I don't care about any other perks. I will still despise the fact it makes my mastery so much worse and I will have to gear differently.

[Jessicka]

I believe there's a happy medium between "forcing players to always use pets" (like it was in cataclysm. It was even worse back then because you were forced into specific pets for each spec) and "force players to always sacrifice a pet". The major problem I see currently is that destro needs to completely alter its reforge strategy based on whether or not you're using a pet (assuming you're trying to be optimal). A reasonable, but not excessive buff to your Chaos Bolt damage and ember generation through your pet is, in my opinion, a good way to make pets desirable without completely destroying the petless option.

As for affliction, it is still my opinion that sacrificing a pet should be a good idea in multi-target fights (where your pet would be detrimental because it's running all over the place) and a bad idea in single target, so your pet would get an additional dot making malefic grasp even better. Said dot would have to have a reasonably short duration (say 6 seconds) so you won't be compelled to micro your pet to dot everything in sight, but it should be a nice boost to your single target damage.

I'm not sure where this happy medium between compelling a player towards a pet vs. compelling a player to sacrificing a pet is, but if I had to choose one of those to have the "edge" over the other I'd rather be the pet option.

The options I present are meant to be something nice, but not mandatory. Mandatory to me is something like destro in cataclysm: either you use an imp, or you lose instant-cast soulfire procs. That's not good gameplay because every time you want to switch pets, you feel like you're being punished. Instead the bonuses should be something general, that all pets benefit from.

There's never a "happy medium" in WoW, just 'Right' and 'Wrong'. That is the ultimate problem when ostensibly Supremacy and Sacrifice do the same thing in regards to offering a flat DPS increase, and so one or the other has to be right or wrong. The only reason Service can be a choice because it actually offers something different.

[Bonkura]

So they changed the crit trinket proc to a solution I asked for in another thread. Seems good.

The proc frequency changes based on the ilvl of the trinket:

541 ilevel = 112.88% proc multiplier
535 ilevel = 106.74% proc multiplier
528 ilevel = 100.00% proc multiplier
522 ilevel = 94.56% proc multiplier
502 ilevel = 78.49% proc multiplier
463 ilevel = 54.57% proc multiplier

This counts for both Unerring Vision and Rune of Re-Origination.

[Spektroman]

There's never a "happy medium" in WoW, just 'Right' and 'Wrong'. That is the ultimate problem when ostensibly Supremacy and Sacrifice do the same thing in regards to offering a flat DPS increase, and so one or the other has to be right or wrong. The only reason Service can be a choice because it actually offers something different.

If the issue is that both offer the same (a flat DPS increase) then it's simply a matter of making each more desirable in a given situation (single target? this one is better. Multi-dot? this other one then. Cleave fight? there's a third option).

What we can't have at all is to ask of one spec to completely reforge (and re-gem) every time they spend a tome to change a talent, because that will most definitely push that one spec into making one choice and sticking with that one choice no matter what. Which essentially removes the choice (given that there's only one right answer that doesn't involve spending thousands of gold).

Mastery scaling with pets (and the proper perks) would, in my opinion make one grimoire more desirable than the others in a given situation. That's what I would find ideal. You'd then change your talents based on the fight, and not necessarily worry about reforges (you're changing talents, not specs). Right now due to how mastery works for destro and affliction, we can't have that.

Right now I'd really like to use a pet on my destro spec, but there's no incentive to it. However we can't simply tell Blizzard "there's no incentive to play with pets" because then they'll revert back to cataclysm destro where you depended on having an imp or you were completely screwed. That's what I mean by a happy medium. Not absolutely force me to play with a pet, to the point where not having a pet means my dps plummets, but also not forcing me to reforge and regem every time I want to try a pet build. Simply adding some sort of mastery benefit for pets would make it so I can at least try different options. Will one of them be the "best" one? Sure. Ideally though, it would be the "best" for a particular scenario, and not the hands-down "best" in every possible situation.

[Jessicka]

I think the whole multi-dot/cleave/single target/AoE situationality is already well covered by spec choice. With that in mind, aren't you risking pushing talents per spec as hard as pet-per spec used to be?

[Phoenexis]

They just buffed Destruction couple of days ago and now it's up for testing on PTR. If you feel it's not enough and can provide data for it they are happy to receive your feedback.

Yes but so did other specs that were doing better. It's not really PvE that I'm worried about, although it gives me a good argument, but sustained damage in PvP which is horrible.

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 07:32 PM ----------

They just buffed Destruction couple of days ago and now it's up for testing on PTR. If you feel it's not enough and can provide data for it they are happy to receive your feedback.

Yes but so did other specs that were doing better. It's not really PvE that I'm worried about, although it gives me a good argument, but sustained damage in PvP which is horrible.

[Netherspark]

What do people think of the new Soul Leech?

While a step in the right direction, an absorb shield does not equal healing. Of course in a raid it will end up being better overall, but outside of raids we lose a favoured self-heal. For example while questing etc instead of staying near full health we'll see it going steadily down over time. Right now Soul Leech is probably the best choice for levelling and questing but after 5.2 I can see it not being used much outside of raiding.

I think it would have been better as a hybrid between the new and old versions: So we retain the normal heal and only gain the shield from overhealing.

That way it's still just as effective in raids as the new one, yet still as effective as the old one outside.

[Deleted]

So we retain the normal heal and only gain the shield from overhealing.

Yes! Great idea!

[PsyBomb]

What do people think of the new Soul Leech?

While a step in the right direction, an absorb shield does not equal healing. Of course in a raid it will end up being better overall, but outside of raids we lose a favoured self-heal. For example while questing etc instead of staying near full health we'll see it going steadily down over time. Right now Soul Leech is probably the best choice for levelling and questing but after 5.2 I can see it not being used much outside of raiding.

I think it would have been better as a hybrid between the new and old versions: So we retain the normal heal and only gain the shield from overhealing.

That way it's still just as effective in raids as the new one, yet still as effective as the old one outside.

To be honest, for most raid situations I like the new one better than the old. Your suggestion would likely be a hair OP (especially in comparison to the talents it competes with). It synergises well with things like GoSac heal, and your healers should be more than able to bring you up while you protect yourself

[xskarma]

I mostly ran with either Harvest Life or Dark Regen from the first tier, and I wasn't usually in any trouble getting lower in health, even with Soul Link. I did use the Siphon Life glyph though, so that provides some healing. I'll take any buff we get of course, but I think the absorb shield is goood enough on it's own without the need for healing added.

[pokeadott]

Yeah, Dark Regen + HS was more than enough healing while leveling. I was rarely in any trouble from mob to mob, but if I wanted to speed up and chain pull 6+, DR/HS is plenty to counter the incoming.

Soul Leech has always been underwhelming imo. I guess taking less overall heals throughout the fight is nice, but honestly DR/HS and letting my healers completely ignore me during tornado alley, rain of blades, get away, etc. seemed WAY more valuable.

[Fallensaint]

What do people think of the new Soul Leech?

While a step in the right direction, an absorb shield does not equal healing. Of course in a raid it will end up being better overall, but outside of raids we lose a favoured self-heal. For example while questing etc instead of staying near full health we'll see it going steadily down over time. Right now Soul Leech is probably the best choice for levelling and questing but after 5.2 I can see it not being used much outside of raiding.

I think it would have been better as a hybrid between the new and old versions: So we retain the normal heal and only gain the shield from overhealing.

That way it's still just as effective in raids as the new one, yet still as effective as the old one outside.

I'm sort of feel neutral about it. From a PvE perspective, the loss of the healing is definitely noticeable while soloing, but the shield is going to be much better for survivability in raid encounters (at least, in encounters where sustained DPS is possible). I'm not sure how effective it is in PvP since you need sustained damage to maintain the shield, but I figure most PvP 'locks take DR for the burst healing anyway.

[rezoacken]

Sure your hybrid idea is obviously the better option but new one is still better than old one.

[Medieve]

I absolutely love your signature Fallen. I'm very seriously considering stealing it for undisclosed backgrounds.

[Kildragon]

Does anyone know if the Sac Pact buff went through or if it's a 25% nerf? I haven't seen anything in the patch notes about that 400% shield while lowering the health cost.

[Bonkura]

It's 25% health sacrificied for 400% return on PTR. Compared to 50% for 200% return on live.

[Deleted]

I don't know if it's already been covered in this thread but 73 pages is a lot to go through so I figured I'll just ask it. With the changes to affliction GoSac, will using GoSup be better/equal to using GoSac? (according to simcraft there's only a 5k or so dps difference in 5.1).

[EvreliaGaming]

I don't know if it's already been covered in this thread but 73 pages is a lot to go through so I figured I'll just ask it. With the changes to affliction GoSac, will using GoSup be better/equal to using GoSac? (according to simcraft there's only a 5k or so dps difference in 5.1).

No, GoSac is still better.