Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Zinnin]

Demo with Sac is terrible on Live. Just because it hasn't been nerfed wont suddenly make it good, because it hasn't been buffed either.

The reason it has been 'buffed' is because the abilities that GoSac affects for Demo have been buffed and the pets haven't been. That said it was far enough behind that I don't think it is suddenly going to be optimal, and won't be even close to optimal on fights where you can Fel Storm AoE packs. It may gain use on some random fights, but I doubt it will be the goto talent.

[Deleted]

But almost all the abilities buffed by GoSac have been largely buffed on the PTR, the question might be worth asking. The difference between GoSac & the rest was quite big according to Simcraft though.

That's what I meant, 15% buff here, 22% buff there... With sac left untouched, can it at least pull even with the damage offered by the fel/wrathguard. Also with the benefits to fury management with set bonuses, people have mentioned we may be able to abuse more soul fires in meta.

I'm really curious as I've come to really enjoy the petless style.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 01:50 PM ----------

The reason it has been 'buffed' is because the abilities that GoSac affects for Demo have been buffed and the pets haven't been. That said it was far enough behind that I don't think it is suddenly going to be optimal, and won't be even close to optimal on fights where you can Fel Storm AoE packs. It may gain use on some random fights, but I doubt it will be the goto talent.

What about purely for single target, a la jin'rokh?

[Jessicka]

But almost all the abilities buffed by GoSac have been largely buffed on the PTR, the question might be worth asking. The difference between GoSac & the rest was quite big according to Simcraft though.

You're still loosing the Fury generation and it's a lot of ground to make up to the Fel/Wrathguard.

[jupiteran]

with the latest grimoire of sacrifice nerfs, whats going to do more dps in 5.2 destro of affliction and is it going to worth to still use grimoire or sacrifice or grimoire of supremacy?

[Fuiking]

Look for an appropriate thread to post your question in next time, before making a new thread, please.

Yes, the consensus is that Demo will be ahead of Affliction now on single target. We still need to see some more math to actually prove it though (SimC would be nice, for instance).

So, basically, it might be more worth to actually spec demo? Instead affliction? (I love demo, I love brute-forcing)

[Deleted]

Well we already know that the simulations are understating both Demo and Affliction due errors in the program itself

I would be interested how we know about errors in the program and if known which errors they are? I was only aware of the APL issues.

[Deleted]

So, basically, it might be more worth to actually spec demo? Instead affliction? (I love demo, I love brute-forcing)

Just do'nt break your head about this. Nobody knows if the warlock is final now, so everything right now ist speculativ. You will have enough time in the first nhc ID to find your best-dmg spec. Atm afflic & Demo should be close to eachoter, like you saw in the 25man raid tests (Midwinter, 3 Affli & 1 Demo).

[Gohzerlock]

Just do'nt break your head about this. Nobody knows if the warlock is final now, so everything right now ist speculativ. You will have enough time in the first nhc ID to find your best-dmg spec. Atm afflic & Demo should be close to eachoter, like you saw in the 25man raid tests (Midwinter, 3 Affli & 1 Demo).

I believe latest build is a release candidate, guess gosac is now that talent no one will take.

[Grizelda]

I think it's fair to say that in spite of what you're reading on these forums there are a lot of Warlocks who are missing using their pets. The talent was never intended to be taken as best, but there for people who don't like pets or encounters where there are issues with using them.

I'll also point out that adding Sac back in was according to Xelnath, GC's idea.

Actually, I don't think it was Xelnaths or GCs idea in a vacuum.. I'm pretty sure it was added at the request of thosands of warlocks who lobbied pretty hard for the option. It's a play style people wanted to see for some pretty valid reasons.

This expac seems like monkey paw wishes. Yeah you can have this wonderful thing you've been asking for but we nerfed it to the point of uselessness. Enjoy!

[xskarma]

With my totally inexpert play (especially of Demo) and the extremely small sample size, I found GoSac Affli, GoSup Affli (with Observer) and GoSup Demo (with Wrathguard) all to be pretty close. I'm now even more curious about SimC results for single target. I'm going to guess that with better Demo play it would have come out ahead though, cause I was really struggeling with the timing of things.

Given my previous experience with Demo and my struggles with timing all the intracacies ( Shadowflame stacking on cooldown, Corruption refreshing in Meta, trying to time Imp Swarm with DS) I think it's not unlikely that the more casual players that have gotten used to Affliction will still get better results with Affliction, in either form (Sup or Sac).

[Jessicka]

I would be interested how we know about errors in the program and if known which errors they are? I was only aware of the APL issues.

Shadowflame benefitting from Meta is but one major effect not happening in Simcraft that occurs, and is used widely in game.

[Zinnin]

With my totally inexpert play (especially of Demo) and the extremely small sample size, I found GoSac Affli, GoSup Affli (with Observer) and GoSup Demo (with Wrathguard) all to be pretty close. I'm now even more curious about SimC results for single target. I'm going to guess that with better Demo play it would have come out ahead though, cause I was really struggeling with the timing of things.

Given my previous experience with Demo and my struggles with timing all the intracacies ( Shadowflame stacking on cooldown, Corruption refreshing in Meta, trying to time Imp Swarm with DS) I think it's not unlikely that the more casual players that have gotten used to Affliction will still get better results with Affliction, in either form (Sup or Sac).

From what I saw in yesterdays test (without the affliction nerf in yet) Affliction and Demo are going to be very close. Demo 'might' be a little stronger until more people have the trinkets in their possession. I think the meta gem and trinket favor Afflictions mechanics a little and will be enough to keep Affliction strong.

I really don't think the sky as falling as much as people think it is. I really don't see a mass exodus to Demo happening because of these nerfs, unless people actually prefer to play Demo. Destro on the other hand feels overnerfed and feels like it is going to lose its cleave niche a little. We will see.

[Deleted]

^ I agree, I dont think the Affli nerfs are THAT bad tbh, even with GoSac.

Atm on live, with GoSac at 50% (based on my 2nd lock which has shittier gear, numbers rounded up and no buffs of any sort) -

- MG does 36k dmg, and causes DoTs to tick for 75% of their normal dmg.
- Haunt does 63k dmg.
- DS does 18.4k dmg per tick and causes DoTs to tick for 150% of their normal dmg. (During execute as we dont use DS outside of it on single target).

With the recent nerf, with GoSac at 35% -

- MG would do ~32.5k, and would cause DoTs to tick for 67.5% of their normal dmg. So that's roughly 3.5k dmg loss from the normal channel dmg, and then 7.5% dmg lost from the DoT ticks.
- Haunt would hit for ~58k, so 5k dmg lost.
- DS would hit for ~16.8k per tick, and would cause DoT's to tick for 135% of their normal dmg, so that's ~1.7k dmg lost on the DS ticks and 15% dmg lost on the Execute DoT ticks.

Our actual DoT's arent affected at all, so on multitarget fight's where we spend a smaller amount of overall time channelling MG, I dont think the DPS loss will be as big as single target.

That said, on my napkin maths it doesnt seem like such a huge over nerf considering the place we are atm on live. Granted, GoSup might pull ahead and be the go to affli spec, but even with GoSac I think we will still be able to compete on the meters. The gap between Affli/Arcane and other classes is quite large atm, this will help even that gap out with the other classes getting buffed and affli/arcane getting nerfed, so in theory a lot more classes should be able to compete for #1. Less so if the warlock is Demo in which case they can compete for #1 better, but personally I'm not a fan of Demo.

Now the Destro nerf.. that was just uncalled for. Making a fairly weak spec even weaker, even with the buffs I doubt it will see much of a net gain in DPS compared to live, which is a shame

[Deleted]

I don't get what's so surprising. GC said something along the lines of "warlocks are a pet class, if someone wants to play without a pet then so be it but it will be with a slight loss of efficiency". It's no exact quote, of course, but that's what i assumed from the bunch of quotes a propos gosac. So what we see now is in line with that (summarized) statement.

[Hatelocker]

I think GC basically wants GoSac to be used for 2 purposes. The first is for people who simply hate pets and like locks and are willing to just eat the dps loss. The second is for fights like Elegon where pets are bugged to all hell.

[Medieve]

No, destro will be completely garbage on multi target fights due to the sac nerf.

That's incorrect. The sac nerf does very little to negatively effect, FnB was uneffected by Sac anyway. Multi AoE took a buff across the board, actually. Since we're not using Sac most likely and by design, Destro will be very competitive as long as it uses a pet.

[Deleted]

Multitarget =/= AoE

[Sabsy]

That's incorrect. The sac nerf does very little to negatively effect, FnB was uneffected by Sac anyway. Multi AoE took a buff across the board, actually. Since we're not using Sac most likely and by design, Destro will be very competitive as long as it uses a pet.

Think he's referring to havoc mostly

Aside from Fire and Brimstone + Rain of Fire, using Havoc on the boss and then shadowburning adds 3 times (or just Havoc chaos bolt) was what made destro so great on cleave/add fights. With the nerf to gosac, you will do less damage with shadowburns/chaos bolts, and therefore less damage with havoc. It's a pretty big nerf I think.

[Deleted]

Shadowflame benefitting from Meta is but one major effect not happening in Simcraft that occurs, and is used widely in game.

Thanks. Forgot about that one. But that's imo the only thing?

[Zinnin]

Thanks. Forgot about that one. But that's imo the only thing?

'A lot' of the difference that people have from simcraft to play is how the sims use resources compared to skilled players. In general the default action lists don't get the most of trinkets + resources and just play like they don't exist.