Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Bonkura]

Yer but whether or not stacking mastery and spending on those procs is going to provide as close a dps comparison to just stacking haste and running with GoSup is the question, being tailoring/engineering will almost required to run with the spec i guess (tho tbh i'd imagine most destro sac specs would use those proff if they have any sense regardless)

I think every serious Warlock should have Tailoring and Engineering at least until we get epic gems where BS and possibly JC (if they fix secondary stat gems) might pull ahead.

[Deleted]

A RPPM system for the trinkets would be kind of fun I recon.
No more waiting for procs to dump Embers and, as someone said above, blowing everything on pull.

I'll probably still blow all (most) CDs on pull anyway depending on how long the fight is.

I think the playstyle and rotation can be more fluid if you don't have that ICD timer to watch for.

And I don't think it matters -that- much to dump Embers into all trinkets if one doesn't play very very well to start with, in regards to maybe missing quite some GCDs and such during a fight.

[villie]

Well this is the thing, a PvE trinket with an on-use 2-3min cooldown such as those we've seen in the past, does risk PvP desirability due to such cooldowns being typically more powerful than shorter, 1 minute ones (exactly why the PvP ones were nerfed in the first place). Also, regular ICD proc trinkets are much more predictable, making them easier to stack with on use abilities than RPPM procs - which is exactly the problem we're talking about. In both cases, these changes can only make PvE trinkets less desirable for PvP than they already are.

What you say is true in the past, but then pvp power did not exist. Currently the pvp trinket provides when fully upgraded around 7% passive damage against players, to me that's 7% sustained damage and 7% burst coupled with the on use. For a pve trinket to be more desirable than it would have to be a primary stat passive and a primary stat on use, i cant remember if blizz has even made one of those trinkets ever? and even then its debatable if it would be better since the way pvp power stacks.

Double primary proc trinkets we have seen tho, however lining up icd to burst during that massive proc still needs a retarded amount of setup and is just not viable at high ratings. Maybe im being a bit blinkered here as if ppl are doing this in the 1500 bracket i can see why it would work as players use their cd's badly and could get caught out. From my exp (2.2k+) this will not happen so the pvp power and ability for on use controllable burst every 1min is a no brainer in terms of games that last over 30s lol. Certainly agree tho in the RBG world pve trinkets could be abused far more regularly and a ppm system would steer ppl away exponentially more.

[Kashii]

I know that one use I've put it to is to reach treasures in the back of caves without having to fight anything on the way to it. Fly the Eye in, drop the circle, go to the X,Y location above that point, teleport down, grab loot, repeat or hearth to exit.

Maybe they don't like that sort of thing. Maybe there are people getting up to more extreme variants of that trick. Maybe it's an unrelated PvP nerf due to battleground tricks. We'll probably never know.

You still have to be in range to use teleport, no? I guess I can see them wanting to prevent exploits but I would be willing to bet that exploits are limited by range more often than not.

[rezoacken]

God please not this shitty PPM system for trinkets -.- Hello more RNG.

[luckydevours]

After experiencing the first content of MoP and some testing at the PTR i came along with some ideas how to improve the warlock playstyle and balance even more. First of all i really want to thank Xelnath for his special commitment to improve the class and bring it to a new height in terms of playability and fun. However there is always potential for improvement and these are my personal thoughts on how it can be achieved. I do not claim inerrability but i experienced almost every aspect of the game in MoP (heroic raiding in 10s and 25s, heroic dungeons and challenge modes, daily quests and bit pvp) and think my ideas are quite reasonable. I also dont know since the absence of Xelnath if there is any active developer reading this board but since im from Europe they dont read personal feedback on the official forum there anyway. Please excuse bad language, i am no native speaker .

Affliction
In my opinion Affliction is the most complete and versatile spec in the game at all. It has great single-target and cleave potential, burst and sustained damage. Its AoE is a bit annoying in terms of application but quite strong nonetheless.

• Unstable Affliction has a 14 second duration which is a bit short compared to our remaining arsenal and complicates Haunt usage especially with the new Warlock T15 2P bonus. An additional tick would bring it more in line with Corruption.
• Can we get the old functionality of Seed of Corruption back? It already has a 2 second casttime and a flight duration therefor a faster explosion would make the spell more responsive and easier to use.
• Concerning the balance of affliction in general and Grimoire of Sacrifice in particular i believe the situation became better at the PTR but maybe you have to reduce the power of Grimoire of Sacrifice even further. 40% additional damage seems reasonable to me valued at log files and simulations.

Demonology
Demonology is great in AoE situations and plannable burst scenarios but lacks a bit in consistency and power outside of Metamorphosis.

• Shadow Bolt really feels slow and weak. Its damage per execute time is even lower than Fel Flame. Can you reduce the cast time to 2 seconds?
• Another part of this is Molten Core being bound to Shadowflame. We have almost endless procs in aoe situations and almost none against single targets. Let it proc of Shadow Bolt/Touch of Chaos in addition to Wild Imps and a single guaranteed stack of Hand of Gul'dan and Chaos Wave.
• Mana costs of Soul Fire are very high. This brings forth excessive life taping in execute phases. To increase its power compared to Touch of Chaos and sustain it as against to Shadow Bolt reducing the cast time to 3 seconds and mana costs to 10% would do the job.
• In contrast to the relative slowness in caster form being in Metamorphosis almost feels like on steroids . The one second gcd of Touch of Chaos weakens haste scaling and promotes spamming it a lot. Increase the damage, gcd and ability costs by 50%.
• Hand of Gul'dan (and Chaos Wave) are or should be important to our AoE capabilities, but only in combination with Mannoroth's Fury. A 6 yard radius seems a bit small and makes the lvl 90 talent mandatory in aoe and cleave encounters.
• Hand of Gul'dan plays a big role even in single target situations so no one actually uses its inside-Metamorphosis counterpart Chaos Wave. Let Chaos Wave also apply Shadowflame so we can use the spell regardless of being in or outside of Metamorphosis.
• The ability of Shadowflame to stack and benefit of Metamorphosis feels inconsistent and limits its usage. Remove the stacks and bring it in line with Corruption in terms of profiting of Metamorphosis and Pandemic and increase the damage a bit to compensate.

Destruction
Destruction is the most fun for me and becomes more challenging and powerful the more enemies are involved and on-demand burst is required. Unfortunately its consistent single target damage is a bit weak.

• Increasing single target damage output spares only small buffs to Immolate and Incinerate if burst should not become a problem.
• On the other hand spells empowered by Fire and Brimstone deal massive amounts of damage in aoe situations and scale very good with additional mastery rating. To compensate buffs to Immolate and Incinerate and to prohibit imbalances in later tiers maybe the coefficient of Fire and Brimstone has to be reduced.

Feel free to post comments and your own ideas, im eager to read them.

[Viggers]

i like and agree with a lot of your ideas, i especially hate the HoG stacking and meta weaving mechanic. but i also feel that shadowbolt cast time if fine, although its damage could be increased a bit. i feel that demo is the spec that does very little damage outside of meta, and loads of damage when in meta, but i think that is a core flavour of the spec and i like it.

[Xanatas]

incinerate hit like a noodle, immolate hit like a mob 85 level, destruction need a buff for single target...

Frostbolt damage and SP scaling increased by 23%.

[Roark91]

I can definitely agree with a lot of your points, luckydevours. As far as demo goes, I like the meta-weaving and the AoE, but when the fight is strictly single target, your rotation is virtually reduced to shadow bolt spam since HoG doesn't have enough targets to mass proc MC. That being said, I like the power that meta brings and really just wish that ToC had a spell graphic in the visual color spectrum, amirite?!

Affliction is just amazing. I realize it's all subjective, but I love having to stay on top of my procs and ICDs, managing my soul shards, keeping my DoTs' and MG's uptime high, and, best of all, seeing the reward of my work in the form of obscene DPS numbers. I just wish the AoE was a little bit more consistent. If you have a dozen or more targets, it's great because you'll never run out of shards. But when you have to AoE that awkward number of adds (4-8ish), you barely have enough shards to keep your DoTs up on all the targets and you spend most, if not all, of your time just putting up DoTs.

I remember the good old days of SoC and couldn't agree more with you about how they should change its explosion mechanic to how it used to work in BC, when they just exploded left and right. Obviously it shouldn't be the heart and soul of affliction's AoE, but weaving SoC with proper DoT applications would be a lot more fruitful and consistent if the SoC didn't take 10+ seconds to explode on a target you aren't MGing.

Of course, it would be great if they FINALLY gave warlocks the spell I have been dying to have since 2007: Shadow Bolt Volley! C'mon Blizzard. DKs got all the old boss abilities. And SBV has been a boss ability for who knows how long.

[Hellfury]

I remember the good old days of SoC and couldn't agree more with you about how they should change its explosion mechanic to how it used to work in BC, when they just exploded left and right. Obviously it shouldn't be the heart and soul of affliction's AoE, but weaving SoC with proper DoT applications would be a lot more fruitful and consistent if the SoC didn't take 10+ seconds to explode on a target you aren't MGing.

With the gear, SOC explodes before the next one arrives, already reached that level

I dont understand why they did that mechanic if gear just negates it

[bobsmith06]

elow are the scary guts of the new trinkets and metagems. This information is for theorycrafters. You don't need to read this to understand how the mechanics work or enjoy their benefits.

Trinkets
Intellect DPS
- Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault – 15% chance on landing harmful spell. 45sec ICD.
- Wushoolay’s Final Choice – 0.56 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful abilities and spells, and periodic spells. 22 sec ICD.
- Breath of the Hydra – 0.50 RealPPM on damage/absorb from periodic spell. No ICD.
- Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen – 0.50 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.
- Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance – 1.00 RealPPM on critical harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.

Legendary Metagems

Sinister Primal Diamond – 0.84 RealPPM on damage/absorb of harmful or periodic spell. No ICD.


From class and set bonus blue post on the front page, i dislike the idea of Rppm on trinkets

[nightfalls]

I remember the good old days of SoC and couldn't agree more with you about how they should change its explosion mechanic to how it used to work in BC, when they just exploded left and right. Obviously it shouldn't be the heart and soul of affliction's AoE, but weaving SoC with proper DoT applications would be a lot more fruitful and consistent if the SoC didn't take 10+ seconds to explode on a target you aren't MGing.

Of course, it would be great if they FINALLY gave warlocks the spell I have been dying to have since 2007: Shadow Bolt Volley! C'mon Blizzard. DKs got all the old boss abilities. And SBV has been a boss ability for who knows how long.

I wouldn't mind having SoC be more of a "weaved" ability with Shadow Bolt Volley being the "main" filler AoE for affliction. So you would plant an SoC, then SBV filler for a few, then plant another SoC when the first one blew up, etc.

[xskarma]

elow are the scary guts of the new trinkets and metagems. This information is for theorycrafters. You don't need to read this to understand how the mechanics work or enjoy their benefits.

Trinkets
Intellect DPS
- Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault – 15% chance on landing harmful spell. 45sec ICD.
- Wushoolay’s Final Choice – 0.56 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful abilities and spells, and periodic spells. 22 sec ICD.
- Breath of the Hydra – 0.50 RealPPM on damage/absorb from periodic spell. No ICD.
- Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen – 0.50 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.
- Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance – 1.00 RealPPM on critical harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.

Legendary Metagems

Sinister Primal Diamond – 0.84 RealPPM on damage/absorb of harmful or periodic spell. No ICD.


From class and set bonus blue post on the front page, i dislike the idea of Rppm on trinkets

Yep, hate it when I'm right. The way some of these trinkets worked just screamed PPM when I'd had a bit to think about it. I have no idea what this will do to our damage, but it's going to heavily influence our playstyle at least.

On the one hand it will reduce skill cap by taking away the ability to plan for events and get the max out of them, on the other hand it will increase our skill cap, cause it will be harder to take max advantage of these trinket procs. We won't know for sure till this tier is underway and people have these trinkets and are producing logs with them.

[Deleted]

Perhaps the Metagem could increase the highest stat between Crit, Haste & Mastery ? C'ant post on official forums.

[Surutcra]

While I agree putting trinkets on RPPM would most likely decrease the degree of skill required to exploit them best, it doesn't feel like that bad of a change. The relatively high proc chance controlled by ICD model is actually an on-use trinket that triggers every time it's ready, and having these effects be on use would actually feel better (you do control everything, which makes using them perfectly even more skillfull).

Having some random and really "unpredictable" effects however also is great, because the reacting part of gameplay is interesting (On fights that we did again and again, I got a feeling that for the first 2-3 minuties at least I know exactly when what will proc and what to do in advancce. That's not reacting anymore, that's pure planning).

It would indeed increase the randomness of DPS by a few percents, but I personally dont think it's that much of an issue.

If you really want not to add too much randomness, you can always smooth it like they did with the nightfall procs, i.e. :
- RPPM model : the chance to proc the effect between t and t+dt is dP=haste*RPPM*(dt/1min)
- Smoothed RPPM model : the chance to proc the effect between t and t+dt is dP'=haste*SRPPM*(dt/1min)*(t-T)/normalization_constant where T is the time of the last proc if the proc already triggered during this combat, or a t_combatbegin - fixed_delta.
If you plot the distribution of the time between two procs for both models, you will get a decreasing exponential for the RPPM (this is a Poisson process), while you would get something closer to a normal distribution (not exactly that, but something close) with the normalization constant used to center that distribution on 1min/(haste*SRPPM) (more exactly, put the expected value of the time between two procs).

Btw, any comment/idea on this smoothed RPPM model is appreciated, might end up suggesting it if you guys feel it's interesting.

[Medieve]

I absolutely detest the RPPM system as much as most everyone I've spoken to does, but after really honestly thinking about the game, I can grudgingly admit it's probably for the best long-term. Picking trinkets with roughly the same ICD and tracking them gives me far too much control over my DoT power, which is one of the reasons aff is so high up there. It's probably part of the reason we're not seeing too many more Aff nerfs. It'll be far more difficult to plan out and control those high DoT bursts that we can sustain for insane amounts of time (up to 30 seconds well past when the effect has ended, giving us effectively 50% potential uptime on DoT buffs).

I still don't like it though.

I'm still wondering about the Destro buffs though. I don't think green fire does any extra DPS, unless I missed a patch note somewhere.

[Count Zero]

Re: trinks and RPPM -- it raises the skillcap floor for those who never paid attention to procs and such, but also raises the ceiling for those who do.

With the number of trinkets -- one without RPPM and with an ICD, one with RPPM and an ICD, the rest with RPPM and no ICD ... I think this will simply make things more interesting in every possible way. I really loathe the tiers where there are maybe two or three total caster dps trinkets (ICC days come to mind) and/or tiers where two are clearly the best by a large margin. They're clearly paying a lot of attention to which specs go for how much haste (with haste affecting RPPM) and are balancing that with the proc effects themselves ... I would not be surprised at all to see that 3 or 4 of these are extremely close to each other with regard to benefit for all our specs respectively ...

---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 07:24 AM ----------

Also, interesting to note that this trinket RPPM info was released the very day after I tweeted GC asking about it :P

[Deleted]

How can people say the skillcap will be lowered? It won't be as easy as today to predict them procs, which only makes it harder.

For whoever wasn't even monitoring the procs, nothing changes: their dps will be bad unless they're lucky to cast the right thing at the right time.

[Multiabuse]

So basically Destro's AoE is being nerfed "just because". Nice.

I've always been confused by the wording of MF and math was never a strong point for me, but won't a MF talented targeting reticule post-nerf be smaller than an untalented one is now? What is the actual % area of effect reduction when you reduce a radius from 15 yards to 10?

Granted, MF is pretty crazy but I'd think a small nerf to MF would be more palatable than a blanket nerf to all AoE (which by extension also nerfs MF). MF is situational, at best, despite being pretty incredible when it does get used. Garajal and Elegon are the only two I can think of that really showcase its usefulness, and on the former only if assigned to the spirit realm adds. While raiding it's rare to see a lock who isn't running with KJC - if the familiar "moving purple beams" we all see on pretty much every fight is any indication.

[Deleted]

As haste increases the procchance from the RPPM system does somebody know if short duration haste buffs (as for example Dark Soul Misery) also work or does the formula calculate haste without such buffs?