1. #2261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    If Sacrifice is supposed to be punished for making life easier for Warlocks, it should be punished at a comparable rate to what you're gaining.....which is to say it should barely be punished at all.

    It's not hard to bind your pet attacks and if someone can't manage that there's always the assist function. Pet management isn't rocket science. Why is it suddenly being treated this way?

    Ultimate Solution to all our problems:
    If GC thinks GoSac is too strong and wants us to use pets, then give us the Imp as the strongest pet.

    • ranged attacks mean not having to deal with pets having trouble finding a path or being useless in some fights (like elegon)
    • no dps loss when a lot of target switching is involved. why? because he's ranged!
    • no complicated pet handling, since he's always right next to you and attacking using what? exactly! ranged attacks!
    Last edited by mmoc029c04889c; 2013-03-03 at 03:55 AM.

  2. #2262
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    If Sacrifice is supposed to be punished for making life easier for Warlocks, it should be punished at a comparable rate to what you're gaining.....which is to say it should barely be punished at all.

    It's not hard to bind your pet attacks and if someone can't manage that there's always the assist function. Pet management isn't rocket science. Why is it suddenly being treated this way?
    I agree with you I mean mages have a pet spec, it doesn't mean their other specs are gimped/penalized because they aren't micro managing something else. I don't really understand this logic, I guess all pet classes/specs should do more dps then every non pet class/spec? Should a demo lock do more dps than a hunter because they have to manage a pet mana AND fury, whereas a hunter manages just a pet and focus?

    It's really too bad something like imp swarm wasn't used in place of sac.
    Last edited by Gohzerlock; 2013-03-03 at 04:15 AM.

  3. #2263
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    Should a demo lock do more dps than a hunter because they have to manage a pet mana AND fury, whereas a hunter manages just a pet and focus?
    This is a really good point but unfortunately I think the tweet about having more to manage justifying greater output is just Greg talking out his ass (something every corporate mouthpiece has to be good at). Someone should tweet that to him. The Demo part, not the ass part.

  4. #2264
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    How were FF and SB nerfed, you mean they benefited from GoSac which was nerfed? If so, then ok, what's the big problem? Or was it a stealth nerf or one I missed? And if you mean the proposed SB fix to make it not generate an extra ember, they said they would not fix that, though admittedly it doesn't generate an extra one on the PTR. Ultimately, I thought we were mainly discussing the nerf to GoSac, which was done to make it more of a niche talent, definitely not mandatory anymore. I don't see what a FF and SB nerf has to do with that.

    It's the fault of the nature of the playerbase that we try to make cookie-cutter specs. GoSac no longer giving highest theoretical DPS? So it's useless and we're saddled with pathetic pet AI, GG FOR KILLING US BLIZZ!
    nerf GoSac = nerf fel flame and shadowburn too, because they benefited from GoSac (obvious)
    But why did they nerf them? Why these spells were not buffed like incinerate and confflagrate?
    I believe they have not realized this mistake and soon they will buff both.
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  5. #2265
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Why? if you're looking at it that way pets weren't viable for affliction in T14. Nobody seemed to cry about that. He's right. Sac is a big convenience since you don't have a pet to manage. So there should be a cost for that convenience. Kind of like the glyph of everlasting affliction. We get new pets, and nobody really uses them outside of demo and pvp.
    Well, in reality nobody's going to take a talent that causes them to do less damage in exchange for a minor convenience. If Sacrifice is always going to be a DPS loss then I don't think it should be a talent at all. With that kind of philosophy at best it should be a major glyph.

  6. #2266
    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    nerf GoSac = nerf fel flame and shadowburn too, because they benefited from GoSac (obvious)
    But why did they nerf them? Why these spells were not buffed like incinerate and confflagrate?
    I believe they have not realized this mistake and soon they will buff both.
    Ok, well perhaps they felt Shadowburn did enough damage, especially also with their intent to keep it as is with generating an extra ember for a kill. Fel Flame isn't intended to be high on damage I believe. The incinerate and conflagrate buffs seemed to be in response to the demand to boost Destro's PVE capabilities, not to directly offset the GoSac nerfs. A nerf to GoSac doesn't mean they need to buff every ability that was nerfed by GoSac, as the nerf was simply targeted at making the other talents more attractive.

    Well, in reality nobody's going to take a talent that causes them to do less damage in exchange for a minor convenience. If Sacrifice is always going to be a DPS loss then I don't think it should be a talent at all. With that kind of philosophy at best it should be a major glyph.
    While this may be true, there will be more opportunities to use GoSac than, say, the Glyph of Everlasting Affliction. GoSac will still be very useful for fights that just aren't pet-friendly, where the AI gets it killed or pets don't get some sort of damage buff. And I don't believe (could be wrong) that Sac's been nerfed to the point where it's downright useless. But either way, I don't think you can argue against their point that it was more convenience AND higher DPS for that talent.

  7. #2267
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    While this may be true, there will be more opportunities to use GoSac than, say, the Glyph of Everlasting Affliction. GoSac will still be very useful for fights that just aren't pet-friendly, where the AI gets it killed or pets don't get some sort of damage buff. And I don't believe (could be wrong) that Sac's been nerfed to the point where it's downright useless. But either way, I don't think you can argue against their point that it was more convenience AND higher DPS for that talent.
    I agree, but I just don't feel that a talent should be merely a "minor convenience" saved for the occasional fight that doesn't favour pets. That's what glyphs are for. Talents are supposed to be more powerful and useful than that.

  8. #2268
    Here's the dilemma I'm sure the Devs are facing. Ideally, you make pet vs no-pet a DPS neutral choice so that people can pick the style they prefer. Only, what standard of "DPS neutral" do you use?

    As has been pointed out by everyone, a pet has certain built in inefficiencies. It doesn't scale as well with Mastery for Afflic and Destro, there's a delay with target switching and travel time, you have to worry a little extra about terrain and certain effects. Going no-pet cuts all of those out.

    So if the two are equal on a Patchwerk test, then no-pet comes out ahead in every actual play situation. Which is exactly what we've had, and why it's been so heavily favored this expansion. GC is now adopting the argument that some players have been making for a while, that the efficiency of using GoSac is a very real DPS increase that has to be accounted for. So he's saying straight out that GoSup will be slightly ahead of GoSac on a Patchwerk sim, with the goal that the two match up closely in actual play conditions.

  9. #2269
    This may be old news, didn't scan through all the pages. I've seen some 5.2 ptr sim numbers and affliction/ gosac was still top dps lock spec/ talent combo. Destro and demon where basically identical and right below affliction numbers. All 3 very close to being balanced so play which ever spec you enjoy without worrying about being behind on dps/damage

  10. #2270
    Quote Originally Posted by Cedrin View Post
    This may be old news, didn't scan through all the pages. I've seen some 5.2 ptr sim numbers and affliction/ gosac was still top dps lock spec/ talent combo. Destro and demon where basically identical and right below affliction numbers. All 3 very close to being balanced so play which ever spec you enjoy without worrying about being behind on dps/damage
    It would be nice if you linked sim numbers and source.

  11. #2271
    Upon a 2nd look demon may be 1-2k higher bis off the numbers. http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topi...n/page__st__20

  12. #2272
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    I think some of the apprehension isn't over where Sacrifice is right now, but where it will be if Blizzard's internal data suggests that Sacrifice is still too attractive. Maybe the patch goes live with another nerf attached to it.

    I'd rather it not be just for fights where pets are a liability, because we're in the hole either way if that's the case. Either you choose a pet that doesn't function well (through survivability, scaling from encounter buffs, etc.) and have your damage penalized, or you take Sacrifice and have your damage penalized. Either way you have to take a bite out of the shit sandwich.
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2013-03-03 at 05:24 AM.

  13. #2273
    Is it just me but is every class complaining about changes in some way or another. Also seems to damn soon to have all these changes. Makes it almost like work to keep up with everything for all your toons. Spent so much times playing with stat weights and getting everything how I considered perfect to only have to start all that over again.

  14. #2274
    Yeah I asked that 2-3 weeks back, but got no response then, so hope someone can shed some light on that.

  15. #2275
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    So I had an interesting thought that I haven't seen discussed anywhere regarding the Glyph of Everlasting Affliction.

    I'm wondering if it might actually be a dps gain to use the glyph if you have the 100% crit trinket.

    Just thinking about Doom because 1 dot is significantly easier to think about and corruption should be refreshed using ToC in meta anyway.


    Glyph of Everlasting Affliction: Increases duration of DoTs by 50%, but reduces damage done by 20%. At it's most basic, in order for using the glyph of be a DPS increase, the gain in 50% duration must outweigh the straight damage loss of 20%.

    In order for this to be the case, using the glyph must allow for an average gain in uptime dependent on normal crit chance. Doom ticks 6 times glyphed, and 3 times unglyphed (with pandemic).


    Comparing non-glyphed with glyphed, what you gain by using the glyph is:
    • 60 Demonic Fury (1 less refresh per 3 minutes)
    • 1 GCD (1 less refresh per 3 minutes)
    • A varying amount of damage based on proc times of trinket
    • Additional Wild Imp damage from increased 100% uptime

    While you lose 20% damage.

    The amount of damage gained directly from having 100% crit up more % of the time is dependent on the amount of time between procs of the trinket.

    Without Glyph:
    Can have 100% uptime of 100% crit on Doom with trinket procing between every 60 sec and 90 sec.

    With Glyph:
    Can have 100% uptime of 100% crit on Doom with trinket procing between every 90 sec and 240 sec.


    Essentially, 20% damage is the same as an increase in average crit chance by 20%, as you'll do 100% more damage an extra 20% of the time. In order for the glyph to be a no-brainer, you'd have to gain an average 20% crit chance over 3 minutes with the glyph compared to no glyph.

    It's too late and I'm too tired to actually do the math on the required proc time for the glyph to be worth it, but if anything I'm thinking that this may actually be worth it for Demo if the trinket procs more often in the 90-240 sec mark than the 60-90 mark.


    Thinking a bit further about the consequences of using the glyph, you would have significantly more Wild Imp damage if you used the glyph and the procs were able to be utilized better with Doom, so it may mean that Sac increases in value somewhat if you were to go this route.
    Not sure what the significance between specs may or may not be, but a friend of mine and I tested using this glyph for Affliction during a few of the earlier ptr tests and found that it was, in most cases, a dps loss. No clue about Demo, however, since it is far less DoT dependent. The only problem I can see is that the way RPPM works is that it is truly random in its procs. You can go 5 minutes without it proccing, or it can overwrite its 4 second proc 3 times over. Both of these have happened to me. It's a shame the glyph doesn't interact with shadowflame, because with the increased dot length to 9 seconds we could see 3 stack shadowflames. Would be interesting to calculate.
    Last edited by Xyronic; 2013-03-03 at 09:29 AM.

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  16. #2276
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    It might be more valid to swap to that for council type fights where you have multiple things up for a long period of time (so you can get 2-3 100% crit dooms up at once).
    I fail at math (seriously rezoaken's looks like gibberish to me :P ) though so gonna sit back and let somebody else work out the actual merits of this.

    For single target we'd need the extra imp and doom damage to outweigh the damage we'd lose from that glyph lowering corruption (since we refresh with ToC, it really doesn't benefit at all from the glyph), but i think it might be worth it at least. Gonna wait for a mathy person to come along and do the hard work figuring it out though :P

  17. #2277
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Well, in reality nobody's going to take a talent that causes them to do less damage in exchange for a minor convenience. If Sacrifice is always going to be a DPS loss then I don't think it should be a talent at all. With that kind of philosophy at best it should be a major glyph.
    People take KJC and insist AV is useless. Isn't that people taking convenience over damage right there?

  18. #2278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    People take KJC and insist AV is useless. Isn't that people taking convenience over damage right there?
    Only if AV had it's original 10% of damage resisted back.
    Yet they nerfed it to 5% on live.
    Epic.

  19. #2279
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    People take KJC and insist AV is useless. Isn't that people taking convenience over damage right there?
    And you keep insisting AV is much better yet still haven't proved it.

  20. #2280
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    And you keep insisting AV is much better yet still haven't proved it.
    Because it's something that's completely subjective and situational, and thus unmeasurable. Besides, AV is an undisputable DPS gain, surely the onus is on you to prove KJC offsets more than that gain?

    But seriously, what the fuck is this community coming to when moving, managing pets, and managing mana are too hard and need removing, or talents to opt out of that are better than having to deal with them?

    And seriously, now we have a QoL glyph which by your estimates works out better too!
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-03-03 at 12:43 PM.

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