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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Varda View Post
    But why buff it to 250% huh especially considering the known state of disc and the community feedback, it's madness.
    This makes me doubt you have any idea what your talking about. The KNOWN state of Disc in PvP is quite desperate, especially with Mana.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Varda View Post
    Removing spirit procs from rapture regen was obviously coming and 100% necessary. I doubt anyone is or can argue for it in the interest of balance. But why buff it to 250% huh especially considering the known state of disc and the community feedback, it's madness.
    The number is arbitrary s stop worrying about it, when dispatch (rogue's execute) was being balanced it went from 200% to 520% back to 450% iirc. It's just the way blizz do things. I don't necessarily agree with it but I wouldn't be worrying about balance 2 days after the PTR is launched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    This makes me doubt you have any idea what your talking about. The KNOWN state of Disc in PvP is quite desperate, especially with Mana.
    He does know what he's talking about. This discussion is about 5.2 changes and that post was clearly responding to PVE rammifications. If you wanna talk about PVP, that's cool but go open another thread...

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    This discussion is about 5.2 changes and that post was clearly responding to PVE rammifications. If you wanna talk about PVP, that's cool but go open another thread...
    Lol. Most changes have PvP and PvE ramifications. All 5.2 discussion has to be centered here; that's forum rules. And on my original post, he was whining that the rapture buff isn't needed - it will generate too much mana, which is true - but completely overlooked the other aspect of the game, PvP.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    This makes me doubt you have any idea what your talking about. The KNOWN state of Disc in PvP is quite desperate, especially with Mana.
    There are more Discipline Priests above 2200 rating (in 3s/5s) than there are Mistweaver Monks.

    Mistweavers aren't getting buffed at all, outside of dispell protection.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Lol. Most changes have PvP and PvE ramifications. All 5.2 discussion has to be centered here; that's forum rules. And on my original post, he was whining that the rapture buff isn't needed - it will generate too much mana, which is true - but completely overlooked the other aspect of the game, PvP.
    Right so shall we buff rupture to 500% so pvp will be competitive and wonder why blizzard lose all their subscribers before 5.2 hits or do you wanna suggest something beneficial. Personally I would balance for PVE first and then tweak PVP power to match, it's a start...

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Lol. Most changes have PvP and PvE ramifications. All 5.2 discussion has to be centered here; that's forum rules. And on my original post, he was whining that the rapture buff isn't needed - it will generate too much mana, which is true - but completely overlooked the other aspect of the game, PvP.
    Whining? Debating m8, most debates can be construed as whining and thus should really not need be said, it simply causes people to get defensive. Anyway, yes the rapture change improves pvp while keeping pve on a similar level as where it is right now. I said what I said because I dont care for pvp I have very little interest in it and I was responding to other pve related posts. I will make a signiture later with the text "pve whore" to make it clear

    Although I have a genuine question for you, why is disc poor in pvp? I dont quite get it, other than spirit procs from trinkets disc pvp regen should be similar to pve which is currently the best regen on the pve floor no? All my changes I have ever sugested never took into account pvp so I would love to get some idea. Is it really mana regen or more an issue or utility?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varda View Post
    Whining? Debating m8, most debates can be construed as whining and thus should really not need be said, it simply causes people to get defensive. Anyway, yes the rapture change improves pvp while keeping pve on a similar level as where it is right now. I said what I said because I dont care for pvp I have very little interest in it and I was responding to other pve related posts. I will make a signiture later with the text "pve whore" to make it clear

    Although I have a genuine question for you, why is disc poor in pvp? I dont quite get it, other than spirit procs from trinkets disc pvp regen should be similar to pve which is currently the best regen on the pve floor no? All my changes I have ever sugested never took into account pvp so I would love to get some idea. Is it really mana regen or more an issue or utility?
    It's good in theory, but not in practice. You most likely won't have access to a Resto Shaman to coordinate Rapture with MTT to get sick mana regen in PvP situations. The fact that Rapture is tied to Spirit means you can't stack other stats (Mastery, Crit, Haste) like how other healers can. And yes, Disc (as well as Holy Priests) do run OOM much more quickly compared to other healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    There are more Discipline Priests above 2200 rating (in 3s/5s) than there are Mistweaver Monks.

    Mistweavers aren't getting buffed at all, outside of dispell protection.
    Holy Priests still haven't gotten any real TLC from this patch build either, and is considered to be the dead spec.
    Last edited by Thallidomaniac; 2012-12-24 at 09:26 PM.
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  8. #108
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    Yeh but in pve, disc doesnt need a shaman to keep mana high its just a bonus. Disc pve is plenty op without a shammy. Anyway why and how is disc underpowered in pvp? What drains your mana so quickly? How are other classes so much better off? Disc was exceptionally strong in cata, maybe you just don't like not being top anymore and instead just average? I'm just guessing ofc.
    Last edited by mmocb5f889089c; 2012-12-24 at 10:13 PM.

  9. #109
    The more I think about it the more I can come to one conclusion:

    We know mana is too big in PVE and too low in PVP somehow??? It will probably require that rapture refunds more in pvp than PVE. This system can already be seen in some of rogue's poisons ( the effect is too strong to be included in PVP so get it get's toned down).

    Something like (refunds x% against players) or make the PVP power scale much stronger with rapture but this encourages stacking which is never a good design.

  10. #110
    I still can't see myself taking Dominate Mind. I don't imagine I'm going to see them do anything very interesting for Shadow, at all.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    The more I think about it the more I can come to one conclusion:

    We know mana is too big in PVE and too low in PVP somehow??? It will probably require that rapture refunds more in pvp than PVE. This system can already be seen in some of rogue's poisons ( the effect is too strong to be included in PVP so get it get's toned down).

    Something like (refunds x% against players) or make the PVP power scale much stronger with rapture but this encourages stacking which is never a good design.
    The Rapture mechanic is not the sole reason why Mana feels low in PvP. It boils down to healing output and CC.

    Comparing to Holy Pals or Resto Shammies, their healing output is just greater, whether we're arguing mechanics and resources like Holy Power and Shammy Mastery or just basic healing. On the Arena Tournament Realm with full gear, my Penances were not healing for as much as a Holy Shock; half of the cooldown and more healing. Granted the Disc 4-piece set is strong, it advocates those expensive Flash/Greater Heals. The removal of Divine Hymn is really detrimental, too.

    Regarding CC, Pallies and Druids, not so much Shamans have so much CC that they can alleviate pressures of healing through huge CDs while Disc cannot. Psychic Scream completely hails in comparison to the more consistent capabilities of other classes. Not to mention either the lack of damage.

    tl;dr Wait for next expansion, Disc is done.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    There are more Discipline Priests above 2200 rating (in 3s/5s) than there are Mistweaver Monks.

    Mistweavers aren't getting buffed at all, outside of dispell protection.
    You're clueless. I suspected, but now I'm sure. Take another look at the patch notes. They aren't all hotfixes.

    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Right so shall we buff rupture to 500% so pvp will be competitive and wonder why blizzard lose all their subscribers before 5.2 hits or do you wanna suggest something beneficial. Personally I would balance for PVE first and then tweak PVP power to match, it's a start...
    Disc, outside Spirit Shell and Temp spirit procs, IS pretty balanced in PvE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple View Post
    I still can't see myself taking Dominate Mind. I don't imagine I'm going to see them do anything very interesting for Shadow, at all.
    I'm of the opinion Dominate Mind should be baseline - because it's so lackluster - or removed entirely.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Disc, outside Spirit Shell and Temp spirit procs, IS pretty balanced in PvE.
    I don't disagree, that would put them on a comparable level to other healers but I very much doubt blizz would remove the defining CD they have at this stage of the game. Rapture is the cause of their large mana and definitely needs toning down, like Varda has mentioned removing the temp spirit procs but buffing it has just caused it to be just one thing less for them to worry about without actually tackling the biggest problem, the fact that a mitigation class can top the HPS. They need to tone down the migitation massively but unfortunately I don't know how to alleviate the problems with PVP when doing this. I'm sure there are much wiser people who can think of something.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    You're clueless. I suspected, but now I'm sure. Take another look at the patch notes. They aren't all hotfixes.
    Direct me to the buffs please, because as a Mistweaver who tried PvP I can say with 100% certainty that going OOM in 13 seconds due to the damage of some cases is not something that's being addressed.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Direct me to the buffs please, because as a Mistweaver who tried PvP I can say with 100% certainty that going OOM in 13 seconds due to the damage of some cases is not something that's being addressed.
    The same thing happens with Holy Priests, and Disc is not much better with mana consumption either.
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  16. #116
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    My Disc perspective (limited knowledge at this time since I pvp'd last season and temporarily quit 2 months into the expansion)

    -the Solace changes make Solace viable for Disc and Holy and will likely be mandatory for competitive PVP and advisable for PVE. For competitive disc PVE we tend to cast Holy fire on CD whenever possible to stack Evangelism, so this will be the same but also return mana. Nice! In PVP with Solace mana issues may no longer be an issue and the instant cast makes it easy to pull off. It'll also open up a glyph slot for both PVP and PVE since the instant holy fire glyph will no longer be necessary. If you're concerned about the range it's still an option, but this way the glpyh will no longer feel mandatory.
    -Dominate Mind needed to be better, and the cast time was a problem. Good change.
    -Angellic feather. I may consider actually taking it for something other than bgs now. I generally prefer the control and fool-proof Body and Soul (other players don't have to know how to use them). I'm sad about the reduced duration of B&S but I'll live.
    -The buff to Rapture is great for PVP, but I'm not convinced that it won't be OP for PVE. I like that the results of rapture will be more consistent so we'll be able to better guage how much mana we have to work with VS when Spirit procs influenced it.
    -Focused will - Yes great. Much needed survivability.
    -SS changes look good. I like that the choice between Crit and Mastery will likely be viable in competitive PVE (instead of only mastery stacking). Crit is also more popular for use in PVP, so it may act as an indirect buff. I know many Crit stacking PVPers who switched to Mastery because they felt it was optimal, but prefer Crit.

    Overall the changes sound really sensible. I'm looking forward to seeing how this effects Disc PVP. It was my fallback plan if I couldn't keep up with raiding (and I couldn't) so I was very disappointed when disc turned out to be so weak in PVP. I don't enjoy Shadow.
    "Healing is a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos. All the healers try to gobble all the marbles up. Disc priests take the marbles off the board."

  17. #117
    I think the new solace is mostly junk, and this is why:
    A) To maximize proposed new solace, you will have to cast it on cooldown (10s)
    B) To maximize Spirit Shell, you need to cast as many PoH's as possible within the 15s buff after activating it.

    A and B are mutually exclusive. You will either have to waste a gcd in the middle of PoH spamming with SS buff to get your solace mana and you have suboptimal SS output, or you have suboptimal solace mana return.

    Also, I'd take this as a nerf as it sounds like we'd lose instant holy fire (unless we take solace). So that's one less thing that we can do while moving.
    Have it replace smite instead and adjust the mana return and maybe then I'd be interested.

  18. #118
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Varda View Post
    The 50% buff to rapture directly cancels out the mana regenerated from the rapture effect on spirit procs not to mention it is now more stable than before. Thus, the change to rapture is ONLY a nerf when raiding with a resto shaman, which in 25m is more likely, unfortunately I raid 10m so.

    Like I've said before, it needs to be a set % of your mana not spirit. It shouldn't scale with gear, or at least not as much as it does. They could also look at making rapture return a set amount + a smaller % of spirit as mana to keep it scaling. I mean shamans have crit mana regen scaling so I'm not against scaling mana regen if it's done correctly.
    I may have expressed myself unclearly: when I meant the "nerf" being affected for more than the mana tide situations, I meant just the "nerf" - the removal of benefits from short term spirit buffs. For the "buff" part - I said it was unexpected for me, I didn't see it necessary. I talked about 2 different things - one being the fixing of spirit procs, and another, the buff to 250%.

    Removing spirit procs from rapture regen was obviously coming and 100% necessary. I doubt anyone is or can argue for it in the interest of balance. But why buff it to 250% huh especially considering the known state of disc and the community feedback, it's madness.
    I agree with removing the short term buffs benefit - and as you say too, it was deffo coming. For the rest however, I dont know - and I dont think either you do, how much those procs were actually worth for: I have played disc at the start of the expansion, and I can tell you straight: 150% rapture WITH short term spirit buffs was not enough, not even close to enough. Playing holy was a breeze in comparison, and I've played holy prolly 10 times in 2 years. Personally, I think the 200% spirit proc was fine - but then again, these are just the first patch notes, and PTR is PTR for a reason, to test things. Community feedback is often fueled by personal feelings, and we all know how "balanced" those are. If I were to change things according to most community feedback, we'd prolly need to delete some classes - after all, wasn't so guy around here even saying that they should plain simple destroy disc in pve? There's your community feedback. Sure it has its value, but not to decide things.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post
    The same thing happens with Holy Priests, and Disc is not much better with mana consumption either.
    It's a good thing Rapture's getting buffed then! You should be so lucky, Mistweaver's had their spell costs increased by the largest ever value I've witnessed in a mini-patch.

    To even complain about the light nerfs Disc is taking when it's so ridiculously ahead of every other healer is beyond comprehension in my mind. Arguing that "Disc is fine" because it's bad in PvP (which it isn't, not really) or because Holy is bad is also another stupid argument. Really, I think it's laughable people even discuss the PvE ramifications of these changes when they're not even doing content where cutting edge setups are necessary (yes, this means I'm saying unless you're doing cutting edge content and you're using stacked setups to compete on a world rank level, your opinion means nothing).

    There is a reason why guilds use 3 Discs, 2 Pallies, and generally 1 of another healer nowadays.
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2012-12-25 at 09:40 AM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meaks View Post
    I think the new solace is mostly junk, and this is why:
    A) To maximize proposed new solace, you will have to cast it on cooldown (10s)
    B) To maximize Spirit Shell, you need to cast as many PoH's as possible within the 15s buff after activating it.

    A and B are mutually exclusive. You will either have to waste a gcd in the middle of PoH spamming with SS buff to get your solace mana and you have suboptimal SS output, or you have suboptimal solace mana return.
    Mana returns from the current solace incarnation:

    - assuming we spend 25% of our time casting poh with ss, that would leave us with 4.5 solace casts available. Rounding to 4, that is 4% mana per minute
    - we dont loose shadowfiend. Balancing shadow fiend in terms of mana per minute is a bit more complicated, as it depends on fight duratiuon, but lets take a media of a third of the 24% it restores, and say its 8%
    - we dont spend mana on holy fires anymore - they cost 1.8% mana per use, so 4*1.8%=7.2% mana saved
    -----------
    Total: 4%+8%+7.2%=19.2% mana per minute gained, which is slightly more than the 14.6% mindbender provides, but at the cost of 3 extra gcds.

    Also, I'd take this as a nerf as it sounds like we'd lose instant holy fire (unless we take solace). So that's one less thing that we can do while moving.
    Have it replace smite instead and adjust the mana return and maybe then I'd be interested.
    Solace is instant - so we can cast it while moving. As far as I understand the notes say it will interact with spells and abilities in the same way with holy fire - therefor proc evangelism/archangel/atonement. If anything, we gain a glyph slot.

    edit: misunderstood your issue. Yes, we do loose the HF glyph, so kinda pigeonholed into solace if we want that.
    Last edited by mmoc318f6f4933; 2012-12-25 at 09:44 AM.

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