1. #2261
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    I'm kind of at a loss for how people react to rankings from different sources. Was watching Eruionmel the first day and it looked like fun but I feel like fun doesn't matter anymore because everyone is so obsessed with the numbers. I'm feeling like players just need to get past what the dps rankings say because if you killed the boss you did just fine.

    Obviously, this isn't just an ele shaman thing, every spec does it, but this is how I see players react,

    Elemental Shaman: "Woo! First week and we killed all the bosses! Yay!"
    Raidbots: "elemental shaman ranks 15th in overall dps"
    Elemental Shaman: "We suck!"
    There's an overall trend, and it's not unique to Shaman, to look at the top 5 specs or so, declare those specs to be "okay", and everyone else is "crap". Not only is this mathematically silly, since you're taking the highest specs as your target rather than the average, but it means that you are setting yourself up to be permanently unhappy. You are, in essence, trying to create a paradigm that appeals to your desired sense of persecution.

    A realistic comparison means you're looking at two things, with regards to class balance;

    1> The average (both median, and mean) DPS as a target, and
    2> The range from that average that the bulk of the other specs fit within.

    If most specs are +/- 10% from the average, and we're at 9% below average, then we are competitive. Perhaps deserving of a buff, true, but not so gimped that we aren't able to compete. The specs that are way out of the normal distribution, either above or below, get discarded and ignored for those points. Those above are OP because of some unprecedented mechanic. Those that are way under, THOSE are the ones that aren't competitive.

    If you're looking for your chosen spec to be in the top 5 before you'll be happy, your concept of class balance is flawed. The target is to be around #10 or so. That's the ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I feel like people like you should stop telling others how to feel. If someone is by default 10% weaker and cant catch up to others, because they are of about equal skill and finds it not fun, then who the hell are you to tell him otherwise.
    If you don't like a spec, don't play it. However, if you're insistent that your spec be in the top 5 specs or so, either recognize that you're setting an unreasonable goal and will be disappointed, or be prepared to swap your spec every patch as needed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 06:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    I have a strong feeling that many of the players who complain whether its us or monks, hunters, priest, etc. are not in that type of guild. To me its the equivalent of a WW Monk (or whoever) going to the forums complaining ele shamans are OP because they lost to one in a duel. An over-dramatization, but I have a sneaking suspicion that even if we end up in the middle in overall dps, players are still going to complain.
    To put this another way; check your relative performance on epeenbot; this gives you YOUR position, per log, relative to the distribution for your class. Then do the same for the guy you're comparing yourself to.

    If he's ranking in the 90th percentile for his spec, and you're in the 70th, then a large part of the difference is that he is better than you are. He may outgear you. He may just be a better player than you are. But it's a difference that has nothing to do with the spec.

    Besides which; if you're not performing in the 90th percentile for your spec, then there's room for improvement for you, as well.


  2. #2262
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    I'm kind of at a loss for how people react to rankings from different sources. Was watching Eruionmel the first day and it looked like fun but I feel like fun doesn't matter anymore because everyone is so obsessed with the numbers. I'm feeling like players just need to get past what the dps rankings say because if you killed the boss you did just fine.

    Obviously, this isn't just an ele shaman thing, every spec does it, but this is how I see players react,

    Elemental Shaman: "Woo! First week and we killed all the bosses! Yay!"
    Raidbots: "elemental shaman ranks 15th in overall dps"
    Elemental Shaman: "We suck!"
    In defense of the Monk class, I will say that the Healing Monks definitely have something to complain about. Blizzard really threw them a curve ball. However, outside of that, people whining about damage need to get some fresh air. As Endus stated above, a lot of people's ideas about class balance is flawed, and that's where a lot of the complaining is coming from.

    Elemental and Enhance are pretty damn solid now. Honestly, both specs are more solid now than I've seen in a very long time. My issue with Elemental survivability and Enhance mobility were solved pretty decisively in 5.2, and on top of that, the specs were buffed even more, to make them more well rounded and have even more utility. I've literally seen Warriors on PTR refuse to duel Elemental Shaman because the spec has no clear weaknesses after their buffs. I thought I was in the Twilight Zone.

    Honestly if you're a DPS Shaman, you should be VERY happy with 5.2.

  3. #2263
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    As far as I can tell as a totally average Ele Shaman in a 10man guild that raids 2 days a week with 3 hours per raid (so 6h per week in total) and with an item level of 502, I am pretty happy at the moment.

    However, we have yet killed only 2 bosses.

    Though, I think that my fellow guild mates are performing somehow not in the way they should be, I still contributed a lot of dmg AND heal (ancestral guidance) to my raid grp.

    For reference: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2354&e=2602 (yeah, I am the Elemental guy called Tûram)

    On Friday, I was still ranked on 144 on normal mode Jin'rokh. However, now many other shaman have overtaken me.

    In the end, I believe that it is all up to your personal attitude and your raid group.

    And honestly, I cant believe that EVERYONE that is posting and sometimes ranting here is in such a hardcore progression guild.

    In 5.1, comparing to other guilds, we were very successful, if you take into account that we were only raiding 2 days / week, and at the moment, I think that is not going to change.
    Last edited by mmocdfc71e8c7b; 2013-03-09 at 02:11 AM.

  4. #2264
    Well you can have the cheeriest attitude in the world, and it won't save your dps if your class has major design flaws. I'm more concerned about resto than the dps specs now. Personally I think enhance needs to have a less stupid way to AoE, and that's about as far as I'm concerned about the dps specs.

  5. #2265
    Field Marshal Amaravati's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Honestly, if you're not happy about the Elemental buffs nothing is going to satisfy you. Elemental got buffed across the board, and is probably one of the most enjoyable casters in the current patch.
    That's bit of an asinine thing to say. Just because people aren't completely satisfied with the changes doesn't mean they aren't happy with the changes we did get.

    I'm sure a lot of people agree that the changes we got were good.
    Although I can understand when people don't really care for say, the Shamanism buff. That seems to be the standard for increasing our DPS and is starting to feel a bit lazy, clearly if Shamanism needs to be buffed every second patch there is an underlying issue.

    I'm also sure that lot of players, primarily PvPers (of all kinds), still feel like Elemental is not quite comparable with other casters.
    I think that this is understandable too, and feeling like you're specs tool box is still not quite up to par is going to leave an unsatisfied feeling.

    Also, being the most enjoyable caster or not is entirely subjective.

  6. #2266
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    Well you can have the cheeriest attitude in the world, and it won't save your dps if your class has major design flaws. I'm more concerned about resto than the dps specs now. Personally I think enhance needs to have a less stupid way to AoE, and that's about as far as I'm concerned about the dps specs.
    I'm more inclined to think its a 'grass is greener on the other side' thing when it comes to major design flaws. Having spent so much time lurking in other class forums, they all have major design flaws. And I'm almost positive they all think everyone else's design flaws are minor compared to theirs .

    I'm not saying we don't have flaws. The totem thing still bugs me but now I'm just annoyed instead of infuriated. I finally came to the conclusion that being able to heal while silenced is not cool. I know if I used a silence and that player could still heal themselves/others, I'd be pissed. But I think they took it too far and should have found some middle ground.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  7. #2267
    My mistake, I was looking at it from a pve perspective. If you're arguing that shamans are weak in pvp, I'd definitely say that's an unarguable fact for the two dps specs. There's literally no good Ele shamans I've seen since Wrath, and the only Enhance shaman who's still consistently glad (I'm gay for him, he's that fuggin good at the class) is Diablous. Such a weak representation from both dps specs in glad/Hero range for quite some time now sadly, though I remember in the last season Ele was vaguely viable with the shadowbolt trinket + rathrak/tarecgosa. Enhance, as far as I know, has always been skipped over in RBGs and is still uncommon in arena.

  8. #2268
    Dreadlord Eruionmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    My mistake, I was looking at it from a pve perspective. If you're arguing that shamans are weak in pvp, I'd definitely say that's an unarguable fact for the two dps specs. There's literally no good Ele shamans I've seen since Wrath, and the only Enhance shaman who's still consistently glad (I'm gay for him, he's that fuggin good at the class) is Diablous. Such a weak representation from both dps specs in glad/Hero range for quite some time now sadly, though I remember in the last season Ele was vaguely viable with the shadowbolt trinket + rathrak/tarecgosa. Enhance, as far as I know, has always been skipped over in RBGs and is still uncommon in arena.
    BRB Summer had an excellent enhance shaman in their RBG team for a while, although I don't know if he's still there. They and he were under the impression that enhance was a largely untapped and extremely useful resource in RBGs in Cata.

    Anyway, that's off topic. Back to mud slinging at anyone who disagrees with one's own opinion on elemental's current state as DPS!

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  9. #2269
    Bloodsail Admiral zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    There's literally no good Ele shamans I've seen since Wrath,
    zeiyo was rank =2 on the hardest BG in EU until the totem nerf in mop, and on US there is of course novoz, and there are actually a bunch more ele's out there who play at decent rating

  10. #2270
    Don't forget Klexx. I think he got his rating playing resto (he did some 3's with bahjeera and sodapoppin), but his elemental movies are really entertaining

  11. #2271
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    hey, i dunno how many speccs doing better dps than elem in pve atm cus it was just first week but so far its mostly just lock that do more than me on single target boss in our raids (tho our frost DK have to raid lead which might cost him some dps), the lock is ranking on nearly every boss between 10-60th place i think. I have some ranks too tho i dont count first 4 bosses cus i used different talents than now, even as Tauren shaman i still got ranked 67 on Durumu, 12th on Primordius (15th now), 62th on Dark animus and 96th on iron qon (ye slacked there and btw its all 10man). So even as tauren while using some globals for healing its not so bad atm, we have to see what happens when people get their set bonuses and trinkets + meta and such.

    Off topic question, did anyone test the trinket from last boss which gives the 100% crit chance for 4sec to see if fire elemental will keep the 100% crit chance the whole min if you pop him the the buff up? would be even more awsum and op with PE talent i use now.

  12. #2272
    Bloodsail Admiral zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossiris View Post
    hey, i dunno how many speccs doing better dps than elem in pve atm cus it was just first week but so far its mostly just lock that do more than me on single target boss in our raids (tho our frost DK have to raid lead which might cost him some dps), the lock is ranking on nearly every boss between 10-60th place i think. I have some ranks too tho i dont count first 4 bosses cus i used different talents than now, even as Tauren shaman i still got ranked 67 on Durumu, 12th on Primordius (15th now), 62th on Dark animus and 96th on iron qon (ye slacked there and btw its all 10man). So even as tauren while using some globals for healing its not so bad atm, we have to see what happens when people get their set bonuses and trinkets + meta and such.
    You ranking on a boss measn that you rank vs other elemental shamans, not versus other classes. Even if shaman was doing 30% of the other specs, you could still rank as ele shaman. It tells absolutely nothing about other spec performance, nor about ele shaman performance.

    Ele is still too low in my opinion on 10m (on a few bosses middle of the pack, on the rest at the bottom of the pack, if not last)
    Last edited by zenga; 2013-03-13 at 10:52 AM.

  13. #2273
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    You ranking on a boss measn that you rank vs other elemental shamans, not versus other classes. Even if shaman was doing 30% of the other specs, you could still rank as ele shaman. It tells absolutely nothing about other spec performance, nor about ele shaman performance.

    Ele is still too low in my opinion on 10m (on a few bosses middle of the pack, on the rest at the bottom of the pack, if not last)
    Lol and you think i didnt know that? i know its just elem rank, but my point is im keeping up with lock which also keep getting ranked between locks so ye.

  14. #2274
    Dps and ranks alone mean very little, what you should look at is the % of efficiency in the "ranking info" of your wol. While not perfect it gives an idea of you fellow raiders performance.

  15. #2275
    So far so good from my experience. Went from 4th-5th among our dps to 1st on nearly every attempt/kill. I'm in a guild that barely started on heroics in T14, though, average ilvl currently at 500. That said, I'm not leaps and bounds better than our other dps; the spread is fairly close among all of us. I'm just some normal mode scrub in a normal mode non-hardcore guild, though...lol. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

  16. #2276
    You guys have me curious about whether the elemental could snapshot the crit from lei shen's unerring vision now also. I mean they update other stats these days but crit has often been a special snowflake.

  17. #2277
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Ele is still too low in my opinion on 10m (on a few bosses middle of the pack, on the rest at the bottom of the pack, if not last)
    Horridon HC, heheheheheheheh.

    Our problems remaining are generally that our out-of-burst single target is still SLIGHTLY too low to maintain against Warlocks, Warriors, Rogues etc, and our AOE is heavily reliant on having mobs stacked up in a tight range.

    I'm in a world 200 10man and I gave up hope around about the end of Dragon Soul of getting into the top 3 on our meters on most fights, simply because all of our DPS are sick at their classes, and when you have 10 players performing near-perfectly it shows how Elemental shaman single target just cannot keep up (Patchwerk style, no burst windows) with most other DPS classes. All classes have burst, most can sustain damage whilst moving, we aren't a special snowflake.

    It's only the second week of this patch, time + BIS gear will tell, but IMO another 5% increase to Lightning bolt should make us totally middle of pack-competitive on single target (real metres, not Simcraft), also a slight increase to CL jump range would be really, really nice.

    GC has delivered on giving us some "Elemental" fights like Horridon, although even there it seems to go to shit around about the 3rd gate. Even when we have such a fight, we still don't top the final meter.

    If Spine 2.0 came out now, we'd be stacked all over it. Dunno if we're meant to be happy about that, or depressed. :/

  18. #2278
    My damage has definitely picked up since 5.2, albeit not as much as I would like, I think another buff is needed as well. Competing against Hunters, frost dks and rogues is just painful.

    Our burst is awesome, but sustained? I don't think its quite enough.

  19. #2279
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    Elemental and Enhancer are currently totally at the bottom of dps. WOL and Raid Bots show it, it's currently not really fun to be only competitive if you are the better player.

    Well, as enhancer i have the hope the meta will fix a little (though it's been heavily nerfed, so it won't be a lot but could be more like the middle). For Elemental, well, it's like always: mediocre single target dps, no multi dotting = weakest specc. I have no hope for a at least mediocre specc, it will always be bottom.

  20. #2280
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Elemental and Enhancer are currently totally at the bottom of dps. WOL and Raid Bots show it
    No, they don't. Raidbots currently has Enhancement as pretty average, and while Elemental is below the average, it's by no means at the bottom, either. Exaggeration and hyperbole don't help anything.


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