5.2 Shaman changes

[sarasun]

We're talking about progression where kills usually are seconds from enrage so yeah Stormlash is a big deal.

But then disc priest DPS and monk DPS are bigger deals. They can get good DPS numbers WHILE doing their healing, where our FET+stormlash isn't close to what they can pull.

[Recom]

This is why Elemental will always be bad cuz when blizzard buffs them, they actually complain and demand it not to go live...wtf? You people realize even with EM buff we are still incredibly bad?

Dafuk ? That is not the point... The point is : EM won't go live like that because it's almost twice as good as EotE or AS.

We don't need a buff throug talents but through spec mechanics/numbers.

But then disc priest DPS and monk DPS are bigger deals. They can get good DPS numbers WHILE doing their healing, where our FET+stormlash isn't close to what they can pull.

Sure Disc, monk and even Druid DPS is nice but we can do some damage too with PE and LB spam and we can still hel at the same time (HR if packed or HST/Riptide).

[Deleted]

This is why Elemental will always be bad cuz when blizzard buffs them, they actually complain and demand it not to go live...wtf? You people realize even with EM buff we are still incredibly bad?

What? I just tell you that EM won't be a buff. They will still nerf it anyways.

They will nerf EM again. We just don't know yet what their plan is.

It's not what i want. It's what will happen.

[Dkenusc]

Dafuk ? That is not the point... The point is : EM won't go live like that because it's almost twice as good as EotE or AS.

We don't need a buff throug talents but through spec mechanics/numbers.


Sure Disc, monk and even Druid DPS is nice but we can do some damage too with PE and LB spam and we can still hel at the same time (HR if packed or HST/Riptide).

Actually even with EM buff EoTE is still better, not sure where u get you data from.

[Kralljin]

Actually even with EM buff EoTE is still better, not sure where u get you data from.

I could ask you the same question.

[Deleted]

Actually even with EM buff EoTE is still better, not sure where u get you data from.

EM is only 700 dps behind on one specc and less on the other.

So nearly doubling it should result 2-3k dps ahead.

[Slappyjoe]

Except logs are taken from "real world" performances.

All I'm saying is the raw data, especially for healing, isn't the only important thing in judging overall performance. I've known plenty of awful healers that put up big numbers each raid. And even though Resto might fall behind on the logs compared to other healing specs, well, not everyone can be at the top of the charts.

Besides, if you're intent on going strictly by what Raidbots says, Resto Shaman are in dead center overall on 25H, 25N and 10H and are slightly worse in 10N. This whole thing seems to be pretty much the same type of complaint people have when their class/spec isn't at the top of the charts in every encounter, therefor it's broken and/or underperforming.

[Endus]

All I'm saying is the raw data, especially for healing, isn't the only important thing in judging overall performance. I've known plenty of awful healers that put up big numbers each raid. And even though Resto might fall behind on the logs compared to other healing specs, well, not everyone can be at the top of the charts.

Besides, if you're intent on going strictly by what Raidbots says, Resto Shaman are in dead center overall on 25H, 25N and 10H and are slightly worse in 10N. This whole thing seems to be pretty much the same type of complaint people have when their class/spec isn't at the top of the charts in every encounter, therefor it's broken and/or underperforming.

The big issue with healing is that it isn't easy to study via meters. Meters show potential HPS. That's an important factor. It's not the ONLY important factor, though.

For DPS, pushing the most DPS really is basically the only thing that matters. Everything else revolves around making it easier for you to push more DPS; survivability to not die so you can DPS, mobility so you can keep doing DPS while moving, etc. Healing doesn't work that way. It's a factor, but there are others. Healing revolves around a much more touchy-feely concept most people call effective healing. This excludes factors like overhealing; because healing someone at max health provides nothing of value. It includes factors like getting the right heal on the right person in the right amount of time, rather than too late to save them or even so late that other healers freak out and use a less-efficient big heal to save them.

Resto Shaman are essentially reactive healers. A lot of their procs are "smart", meaning they automatically hit the lowest-health targets around. This is better, for effective HPS concerns, than something that procs on your target; it means you're spreading heals more efficiently to those targets most in need of it. Our Mastery works in a similar way; the more you need healing, the more healing you get. This turns Resto Shaman's performance into more of a "triage" healer. We're at our best when things go sideways and healing's a big deal. This is great for progression; things will go squirrely more often giving Resto more time to shine. As gear levels improve, though, Resto's relative performance to other healers will drop; people will be standing in the fire less often, and everyone's stats are higher due to better gear, meaning A> the other healers are pushing more raw HPS (as you are too), and B> fights are shorter meaning less damage will go out meaning healers can heal less efficiently for even greater HPS. This means less healing is needed, for survival purposes at least, and as Resto's performance is inherently bound to how much people need healing, they lose apparent effectiveness.

The issue there is that this is an illusion created by the metrics. Resto still has the potential to do better than it is. It's just that the opportunities are fewer and further between. And this isn't hurting raid performance, since you're only in that situation in the first place because [i]everything/i] is getting easier. It's like a game with adaptive difficulty; if you run around headshotting everything like a pro, the game's going to ramp up the difficulty. You're going to start struggling more, but it's not because you're playing worse, it's that the game environment you're facing has changed.

That's why Resto will inevitably fall off on meters, at least somewhat, as tiers progress. And why that's not an issue of spec balance, not really. To use another analogy, it's like Resto's an Olympic marathon runner. And then he runs a local marathon, and slacks off, not pushing himself. He still does well, but doesn't come close to beating his record times. It's not because he can't, it's because he didn't need to, to place respectably. The chief difference in the analogy is that the runner's making a choice, while Resto Shaman don't; they're "slacking" only because people are outgearing the content and it's getting relatively easy and there isn't as much healing needed. If content got challenging again, like with a new raid tier, you'd see the performance jump up again.


That doesn't mean logs are bad and you should feel bad for quoting them. But they're only part of the picture for DPS. And a much smaller part of it for healers. You can't use them as your sole point of argument, since you're just looking at HPS, not effective healing. And no, there's no easy metric I can link you for "effective healing". That doesn't mean it's not the proper measure, it just means it's a difficult one to quantify.

[thebdc]

Shamanistic Rage and astral shift ... they gonna stack?

You can use them at the same time, but keep in mind that defensive cooldowns like that work multiplicative, not additive.

[gwenners]

I don't know, from playing the game ?

HST, HTT, SWG, Riptide spam with the glyph and even more if you pop ascendance are all huge for movement healing on fights like Ta'yak or Lei'shi.

Who is this good compared to? Druids and monks are obviously better.

Disc has shield spam, renew spam, penance, holy fire and PoM, and any of their lvl 90 spells.

Holy has a strong renew, PoM, circle of healing, and shields, and any of their lvl 90 spells.

Paladins have a 4 second holy shock, holy prism, eternal flame/wog, light of dawn, and 50% of all that on a beaconed target.

I don't see it at all.

[thegempolice]

Actually even with EM buff EoTE is still better, not sure where u get you data from.

Tell us more about how 6% > 10%

[Dkenusc]

Tell us more about how 6% > 10%

i love it when people back up their claims with made up statistics.

[Endus]

i love it when people back up their claims with made up statistics.

Almost as much as people who make claims without providing anything at all to back them up.

Elemental Mastery was never far behind Echo of the Elements, and it was close enough that for a fight with burn phases, you'd prefer it. If EotE is a 6% boost, EM would be closer to 5-5.5%.

So yes, doubling the uptime really DOES make it that much better.

[Irisel]

SLT's uniqness isnt in the 10% damage reduction, its the ability to keep everyone's HP at the same level, couple that with our mastery and ancestral vigor and you have pretty strong healing + utility. the range is not an issue SLT is a strong CD that many raid leaders welcome in their raid.

Why are you comparing apples and oranges ? seriously if you want shields and HoPs you're playing the wrong class.

Not here to argue that SLT is good or bad, but SLT is a better CD coupled with any other healer's raid healing spells, ANY other. And, it's because of our mastery. Our mastery is stronger the lower people are - Chain Heal is a smart heal, as is Ancestral Awakening and HST (as is HTT). The only one of our AoE healing spells that has a more noticeable increase during SLT is Healing Rain (and in the same notion, Water Ascendance). For example, SLT is much better for actual throughput for a holy Pally, due to their bad habit of overhealing, same goes for Resto Druid.

I love being top on meters as much as anyone, and I know healing isn't about it, but the stuff we bring to the raid (MMT, SLT, Stormlash) benefits others' throughput just as much, or in a lot of cases even more so than our own throughput. It's just the nature of our class, I guess.

---------- Post added 2013-01-04 at 12:59 AM ----------

You can use them at the same time, but keep in mind that defensive cooldowns like that work multiplicative, not additive.

My brain hurts - I know I know this, but can you explain it to me one more time?

[Maurypovich]

My brain hurts - I know I know this, but can you explain it to me one more time?

You can't just add up the % damage reductions like 40% +30% to get 70% reduction. That's additive. How the damage reduction is calculated is where X = the damaging strike. It will first take say 40% from X from Astral Shift and then take 30% off of X from Shamanistic Rage.

So the damage if the attack was 1,000 would be 1,000 x .6 (a 40% reduction means you're taking 60% of the strike so .6) = 600. Then the 30% would come off of 600 so it would be 600 X .7 = 420.

So if you had both SR and AS up at the same time for a 1,000 hp hit, it would hit you for 420 instead of something like 1000 X .3 = 300 from adding the 40% to 30%.

[Recom]

Who is this good compared to? Druids and monks are obviously better.

Disc has shield spam, renew spam, penance, holy fire and PoM, and any of their lvl 90 spells.

Holy has a strong renew, PoM, circle of healing, and shields, and any of their lvl 90 spells.

Paladins have a 4 second holy shock, holy prism, eternal flame/wog, light of dawn, and 50% of all that on a beaconed target.

I don't see it at all.

Way to take my comment our of context. Check my previous reply you'll see that I said Sham where good a movement healing ALONG monks and druid...

I also never said priests/pal can't do anything while moving, I said Shams are better at it. Try doing Ta'yak 10hm with a pal and disc, funny times in P2 !

[Sarevokcz]

Way to take my comment our of context. Check my previous reply you'll see that I said Sham where good a movement healing ALONG monks and druid...

I also never said priests/pal can't do anything while moving, I said Shams are better at it. Try doing Ta'yak 10hm with a pal and disc, funny times in P2 !

Fun fact, out of all the WoL recorded HC fights on 10man shown on raidbots, out of like 1700 priests, 1600 are disco. Also disco and pala are the two most used specs (and two specs quite ahead on output, too) on that fight by decent margin ahead of shaman, while druid and monk are even less represented (Tho my guess on monk is that its still relatively early in the expansion for a new class to be well represented)

[thegempolice]

i love it when people back up their claims with made up statistics.

Please enlighten us about the 'real' numbers and break down 5.2 EotE vs EM if you have anything of value to contribute. Someone else already posted the numbers and why EM will be much better if it makes it live unchanged (it won't) but I'm curious to hear your insane reasoning.

[Tomikadzi]

I hope for more buffs for ele damage but I'd rather see fixing on scaling mechanics.
I don't mind my crit doesn't affect like 40% of my damage and mastery affects like 70% but I don't like when every single point of haste above 50% affects only 40% of my damage including mastery procs.
And hell, they brought EM on 1 min CD. Now, I'll just need only 9.89% haste to don't get overcapped, otherwise I'll get ~40% uptime on 5 min fight with my spell cast time less than 1 sec. Reforge haste to mastery or crit may work but still, they used to have lesser scale than haste.
Double shamanism buff? For when one facepalm shamanism buff doesn't cut it.
In my opinion Blizz should've make some changes to our spells. Why wouldn't make them cast slower but with more damage? or just make an active stance in which we would cast slower but do more damage?

On other changes: Tier 6 talents were buffed to EB's level. Probably some of them will get their use on some bosses.
Shamanistic Rage for ele is really nice, even pve wise when we can get oom on 2-3 mobs cleave (like stone guards).

But yeah, I hope Blizz won't stop with those changes along with another shamanism buff

[gwenners]

Way to take my comment our of context. Check my previous reply you'll see that I said Sham where good a movement healing ALONG monks and druid...

I also never said priests/pal can't do anything while moving, I said Shams are better at it. Try doing Ta'yak 10hm with a pal and disc, funny times in P2 !

But they aren't better at it, if you actually read my comment. Once you burn SWG you're left with riptide and hst. Riptide when glyphed is equal or worse than every other hot and hst is single target and stationary. Paladin and disc have a ton more tools to heal and mitigate damage on the run than shaman do. Ive done H-Bladelord as a paladin (with another paladin even) and a shaman - it's not even close.